📝 本节摘要：
在本节中，主持人Lenny欢迎Notion联合创始人Ivan Zhao做客播客。对话从Ivan独特的成长背景展开：他出生于中国西北的乌鲁木齐（他幽默地指出这也并非真的是“小镇”），后来为了升学迁居北京。Ivan坦言他最初学习编程并非为了写代码，而是为了通过赢得信息学奥林匹克竞赛（Information Olympiad）进入好学校，同时满足自己玩电脑游戏的欲望。随后他移居加拿大，在大学期间修习艺术与科学。正是因为身处艺术圈，作为唯一的“极客”帮助朋友制作网页集（Portfolio），他意识到普通人缺乏驾驭软件媒介的能力，这成为了创立Notion的最初萌芽。最后，他还分享了一个有趣的细节：他是通过看《海绵宝宝》来学习英语语境和幽默感的。
[原文] [Lenny]: Ivan, thank you so much for being here, and welcome to the podcast.
[译文] [Lenny]: Ivan，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎做客本期播客。
[原文] [Ivan]: Thank you for having me.
[译文] [Ivan]: 谢谢邀请。
[原文] [Lenny]: I know you don't do a lot of podcasts, and so I'm very honored that you're here.
[译文] [Lenny]: 我知道你很少参加播客节目，所以你能来我感到非常荣幸。
[原文] [Lenny]: I want to start with the story of Ivan. Your background is quite unique for a founder of a $10 billion plus tech company, and I don't think a lot of people know it.
[译文] [Lenny]: 我想先从Ivan的故事开始。作为一家估值超过100亿美元的科技公司创始人，你的背景非常独特，而且我认为很多人并不了解它。
[原文] [Lenny]: For example, you grew up in a small town in China. And the way you got out of there, the way you got into tech is pretty interesting. Can you just walk us through that early years of Ivan and how you got out there?
[译文] [Lenny]: 比如，你是在中国的一个小镇长大的。你走出那里以及进入科技行业的方式都非常有趣。能不能带我们回顾一下Ivan的早年经历，以及你是如何走出来的？
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah. I think a small town in China, the definition, it's actually 4 million people. It is called Urumqi. It's in the northwest desert part of China.
[译文] [Ivan]: 好的。我想关于中国“小镇”的定义，其实那里有400万人口。那个城市叫乌鲁木齐。它位于中国西北部的沙漠地区。
[原文] [Ivan]: So I grew up there and then I moved into... My mom took me to Beijing, the capital of China. And that's actually how I got into programming, coding, because I'm from somewhere else and in order to go into good school in the capital, you need to win some kind of competition.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我在那里长大，然后我搬到了……我妈妈带我去了中国首都北京。其实那就是我接触编程、写代码的契机，因为我是外地来的，为了能进首都的好学校，你需要赢得某种竞赛。
[原文] [Ivan]: And there's different paths. You can get at math or you can get at programming like Information Olympiad. I was really into computer games at the time so of course I picked the programming one so I can play computers all day long.
[译文] [Ivan]: 当时有不同的路径。你可以选数学，也可以选像信息学奥林匹克（Information Olympiad）这样的编程竞赛。那时候我非常迷恋电脑游戏，所以我自然选了编程这一项，这样我就能整天玩电脑了。
[原文] [Ivan]: And I win some competition and got me to a good school. So that's how I got into programming.
[译文] [Ivan]: 后来我赢了一些比赛，这让我进了一所好学校。这就是我进入编程领域的经过。
[原文] [Ivan]: Later then, I moved to Canada. When I moved to Canada, got into college, did not study computer science since I already knew how to code, but a lot of video games. Did a lot of art actually, art and science.
[译文] [Ivan]: 后来，我搬到了加拿大。当我到加拿大上大学时，我没有修读计算机科学，因为我已经会写代码了，（而且玩了）很多电子游戏。实际上我修了很多艺术课程，是艺术与科学。
[原文] [Ivan]: By the time I graduated college, I realized most of my friends are artists. They need to make their websites, get web portfolio made. And I'm the only nerd in my art friend circle so I made three or four websites and realized, "Oh, actually people don't know how to create with the software media, computing media."
[译文] [Ivan]: 等到大学毕业时，我意识到我的大多数朋友都是艺术家。他们需要制作网站，制作网络作品集（web portfolio）。而我是我的艺术朋友圈里唯一的“书呆子”（nerd），所以我帮他们做了三四个网站，通过这件事我意识到：“噢，原来人们并不知道如何利用软件媒介、计算媒介进行创作。”
[原文] [Ivan]: So that got me into want to create a product like Notion today which it allow more people to create tools, create software for their daily work and life.
[译文] [Ivan]: 这促使我想创造一个像今天Notion这样的产品，它能让更多人为他们的日常工作和生活创造工具、创造软件。
[原文] [Lenny]: Okay. So going back to get into a great school and to leave the small town, not so small, you had to enter a programming contest. And you placed first or second or how well did you actually do in this one?
[译文] [Lenny]: 好的。回溯到为了进好学校并离开那个小镇——虽然其实不算小——你不得不参加编程比赛。你当时是拿了第一名还是第二名，或者是成绩如何？
[原文] [Ivan]: Second in Beijing.
[译文] [Ivan]: 在北京拿了第二名。
[原文] [Lenny]: In Beijing, okay. Pretty big. Beijing is a big city.
[译文] [Lenny]: 在北京拿了第二，好的。这挺厉害的。北京是个大城市。
[原文] [Lenny]: Okay. Incredible. Another stat or a story I heard is that you learned English by watching SpongeBob SquarePants. Is that real?
[译文] [Lenny]: 好的，太不可思议了。我听到的另一个数据或故事是，你是通过看《海绵宝宝》学的英语。这是真的吗？
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, it's real. I moved to Canada pretty late, 16 years old, and what I learned is in China you can learn English but it's typically just grammar and doing exams.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，是真的。我搬到加拿大比较晚，当时已经16岁了，我发现虽然在中国也能学英语，但通常只是学语法和应付考试。
[原文] [Ivan]: What you're missing is the context, the culture. So you have to watch SpongeBob or Simpsons to get a sense of humor essentially. You can understand jokes. Watching cartoons, it's probably the easiest way to do that.
[译文] [Ivan]: 你缺失的是语境和文化。所以你得看《海绵宝宝》或《辛普森一家》来真正获得一种幽默感。这样你才能听懂笑话。看动画片可能是做到这一点的最简单方法。
📝 本节摘要：
在本章中，对话深入探讨了Notion背后的哲学根基。Ivan提到了对他影响深远的计算机先驱，如Douglas Engelbart（道格拉斯·恩格尔巴特）和Alan Kay（阿兰·凯）。他指出，早期的计算愿景是“增强人类智力”，且不应区分开发者与用户。Ivan甚至提出了一个大胆的观点：Steve Jobs（乔布斯）虽然普及了个人电脑，但也因过度关注图形界面而忽略了Smalltalk系统中“对象导向”和“可塑性”的精髓，导致了今天应用程序彼此割裂的局面。
>
随后，话题转向Notion创业初期的现实困境。Ivan坦诚地将2013年起的头三四年称为“迷失的岁月”（The lost years）。他们最初试图直接构建一个让所有人都能开发软件的工具，但最终发现这是一个错误的假设——因为大多数人并不关心如何构建软件，只关心如何完成手头的工作。
[原文] [Lenny]: That's amazing. And there's another seminal moment in your path. I don't know if it was this point or later, but the Douglas Engelbart paper ended up being a very meaningful moment for you.
[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。在你的人生路径中还有另一个开创性的时刻。我不知道是在这个时候还是更晚一些，但Douglas Engelbart（道格拉斯·恩格尔巴特）的论文最终对你产生了非常有意义的影响。
[原文] [Ivan]: So while I was in Canada in last year of school working on trying to building website from our friends and building a creative tool for them, and then you just look into the history of a creative tool for software, for computing. Eventually arrived at 1960 and '70s.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，当我在加拿大的最后一年，一边帮朋友做网站，一边试图为他们构建创意工具时，我就去研究了软件和计算领域的创意工具历史。最终我追溯到了20世纪60和70年代。
[原文] [Ivan]: So you realize the first generation of computing pioneers, which is around San Francisco, Stanford areas, South Bay, they actually had the best ideas. For them, people like Douglas Engelbart, Alan Kay, Ted Nelson, those first generation pioneers, for them computing, there shouldn't be a separation between builders and users. It's the same medium.
[译文] [Ivan]: 然后你意识到，第一代计算机先驱——那些活跃在旧金山、斯坦福地区、南湾的人——其实拥有最好的想法。对于像Douglas Engelbart、Alan Kay（阿兰·凯）、Ted Nelson（泰德·尼尔森）这样的第一代先驱来说，在计算领域，构建者（builders）和用户（users）之间不应该有界限。它们属于同一种媒介。
[原文] [Ivan]: Engelbart's original paper called Augmenting Human Intellect, when I read that paper, it's like holy shit. If you are making software, if you know how to code or design, this is the highest leverage thing you can do for other people. So giving them the ability to use computing to augment their problem-solving ability or their intellect, that just got me obsessed with this problem and I want to start a company like Notion.
[译文] [Ivan]: Engelbart的原名叫《增强人类智力》（Augmenting Human Intellect）的论文，当我读到那篇论文时，感觉简直是“我靠（holy shit）”。如果你在制作软件，如果你懂得代码或设计，这是你能为他人做的最高杠杆（highest leverage）的事情。赋予人们利用计算来增强解决问题的能力或智力的能力，这让我对这个问题着了迷，也让我想要创办一家像Notion这样的公司。
[原文] [Lenny]: It makes me think of Steve Jobs's famous line of how the computer is a bicycle for the mind.
[译文] [Lenny]: 这让我想起Steve Jobs（乔布斯）那句著名的台词，说计算机是大脑的自行车。
[原文] [Ivan]: You know what? Steve Jobs is actually at fault of this in some strange ways. So the story is... Actually, the fact. It's not a story. Xerox PARC has working on the first-generation personal computers called Xerox Alto. Alan Kay was one of the main persons behind it.
[译文] [Ivan]: 你知道吗？其实Steve Jobs在某种奇怪的层面上对此是有过错的。故事是这样的……其实这是事实，不仅是故事。施乐帕罗奥多研究中心（Xerox PARC）当时正在研发第一代个人电脑，叫Xerox Alto。Alan Kay是背后的主要人物之一。
[原文] [Ivan]: Alto runs down the system called Smalltalk, which is there's no separation between users and users' app. There's no thing called application. Everything is malleable. You can change the tools.
[译文] [Ivan]: Alto运行在一个叫Smalltalk的系统上，在这个系统里，用户和用户的应用之间没有分隔。根本没有所谓的“应用程序”（application）这个东西。一切都是可塑的（malleable）。你可以随意修改工具。
[原文] [Ivan]: So when Steve Jobs, the famous story is when he went to Xerox PARC to in demo with Alto, he does not... It's the first time he see graphic user interface, one of the first time, and it's also they present them with this Alto system that everything could change. But he did not see the power of it.
[译文] [Ivan]: 那个著名的故事是，当Steve Jobs去Xerox PARC观看Alto的演示时，他并没有……那是他第一次，或者最早几次之一看到图形用户界面（GUI），而且他们向他展示了这个一切皆可改变的Alto系统。但他并没有看到（系统可塑性）这部分的力量。
[原文] [Ivan]: Even when people would demonstrate like, "Hey," Steve Jobs say, "I don't like this direction of scroll bar direction. When you scroll up and down, it shouldn't scroll the opposite reverse direction." Then people just instantly change the scroll bar direction for him. That's the power of the original Smalltalk Alto system.
[译文] [Ivan]: 甚至当人们演示时，比如Steve Jobs说：“嘿，我不喜欢这个滚动条的方向。当你上下滚动时，它不应该向反方向滚动。”然后开发人员就立刻为他更改了滚动条的方向。这就是最初Smalltalk Alto系统的力量。
[原文] [Ivan]: He only saw the graphic user interface. He did not see the underlying object or the environment power. As the generation of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates made PC, personal computing, popular and they stuck with this an application framework rather than the Smalltalk object framework. Then that has all the apps we have today and has the SaaS route we have today.
[译文] [Ivan]: 他只看到了图形用户界面。他没有看到底层的对象（object）或环境的力量。随着Steve Jobs和Bill Gates这一代人让PC（个人计算）普及，他们坚持使用了这种“应用程序框架”（application framework），而不是Smalltalk的“对象框架”。这就导致了我们要面对今天所有的App，以及今天的SaaS（软件即服务）路径。
[原文] [Lenny]: That vision of how products should be sounds very familiar and we'll talk about that later of how you think about Notion, but let's assume to the beginning of Notion, when we were chatting earlier, the way you described the early years of Notion, you started Notion in 2013 and some over 10 years ago at this point, you described the first three to four years is the lost years of Notion.
[译文] [Lenny]: 这种关于产品应有形态的愿景听起来非常熟悉，我们稍后会讨论你如何看待Notion，但让我们先回到Notion的开端。我们之前聊天时，你描述Notion早期的状况——你在2013年创办Notion，到现在已经十多年了——你把最初的三四年描述为Notion“迷失的岁月”（the lost years）。
[原文] [Lenny]: And I think this is actually a really big deal for founders to hear about because there's all these companies these days, you hear these stats, they had 100 million ARR in two years, in under two years now. And you don't hear a lot of stories of companies of your scale and success that took three to four years to find product market fit essentially.
[译文] [Lenny]: 我认为这对创始人来说真的很重要，因为现在的公司，你总能听到这样的数据：他们在两年内，甚至不到两年就达到了1亿美金的年度经常性收入（ARR）。你很少听到像你们这样规模和成功的公司，竟然花了三四年才本质上找到产品市场契合点（Product Market Fit）。
[原文] [Lenny]: What went on during these lost years as you described them and just how did you stick with it? That's a long time to stick with something that isn't working.
[译文] [Lenny]: 在你描述的这些“迷失的岁月”里到底发生了什么？你是如何坚持下来的？对于一件行不通的事情来说，坚持这么久是很漫长的。
[原文] [Ivan]: Because the goal is always building a computing tool. It's like what product is this? It's really hard to shape the product. The vision is, the dream is there, but the product is very... There's so many paths.
[译文] [Ivan]: 因为我们的目标始终是构建一个计算工具。这就像是，这到底是个什么产品？要塑造这个产品真的很难。愿景在那儿，梦想在那儿，但产品却非常……有太多的路径了。
[原文] [Ivan]: We'll try many different versions. The first version to take, okay, everybody can make and create their software. So let's just build a developer tool that's so easy that more people can do that.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们尝试了许多不同的版本。第一个版本的思路是：好吧，每个人都可以制作和创造他们的软件。所以我们就做一个足够简单的开发者工具，让更多人能做到这一点。
[原文] [Ivan]: We tried that a couple of years and learned that actually most people just don't care. The majority of people, they wake up, they have report due, they need to get their job done, they don't care creating software to optimize whatever they're doing. They don't care. So we give to our friends, give to investors. It did not resonate with people.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们试了几年，结果发现实际上大多数人根本不在乎。绝大多数人，他们醒来，有报告要交，有工作要完成，他们不在乎创造软件来优化他们正在做的事情。他们不在乎。所以我们把它给朋友用，给投资人用。它并没有引起人们的共鸣。
📝 本节摘要：
在意识到纯粹的“开发者工具”无人问津后，Ivan提出了著名的“糖衣西兰花”（Sugar-coated Broccoli）策略：将赋予用户编程能力的宏大愿景（难吃的西兰花）隐藏在人们日常急需的生产力工具（甜美的糖衣）之下。
>
此外，Ivan透露了Notion早期的一段技术弯路——他们最初押注于谷歌的Web Components技术，但因其不稳定导致bug频出，最终不得不抛弃所有代码，重构整个软件。在公司资金即将耗尽的危急时刻，Ivan依靠母亲的借款度过了难关。支撑他坚持下来的动力，是他想要为世界创造一种像乐高（Lego）一样既具创造力又好玩的软件工具的执念。
[原文] [Ivan]: Our realization is actually, let's hide our vision, which is everybody can create their software, in the form factor that people do care. So what kind of tool do people use every day? Productivity software.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们的领悟实际上是，让我们把愿景——即每个人都能创造自己的软件——隐藏在人们真正关心的产品形态（form factor）里。那么，人们每天都使用什么样的工具呢？是生产力软件。
[原文] [Ivan]: So that's why it came to Notion today. If you use Notion, Notion are more understood as the productivity suite, but our intent, and if you use Notion, more you discover intent, which is that it has a no-code developer power into it and you can create almost any kind of productivity software using Notion itself. That took us two plus year to realize.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以这就是今天Notion的由来。如果你使用Notion，它更多被理解为一个生产力套件，但我们的意图——如果你用得越多，你就越能发现这个意图——是它内置了无代码（no-code）的开发能力，你可以利用Notion本身创造几乎任何类型的生产力软件。这一点我们花了两战多时间才意识到。
[原文] [Ivan]: So actually the world is not like you. The world are not developer, designer mind. That the world is they only care what's in front of them and they're so noisy.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以实际上，这个世界和你是不一样的。这个世界并不都是开发者或设计师的思维。这个世界（的人们）只关心摆在他们面前的东西，而且周围充满了噪音。
[原文] [Lenny]: There's a quote that this makes me think about where you said, "The first version of Notion was more about what I wanted than what people wanted."
[译文] [Lenny]: 这让我想起你说过的一句话：“Notion的第一个版本更多是关于我想要的，而不是人们想要的。”
[原文] [Ivan]: It's very much so because sense of maturation is you don't see the world just from your perspective but from outside your perspective. At tech, we were young. Took us multiple years. It hit your head straight into the wall to realize that. People just don't care.
[译文] [Ivan]: 确实如此，因为成熟的感觉在于你不再仅仅从自己的视角看世界，而是从外部视角来看。在技术方面，当时我们还年轻。这花了我们好几年时间。（你需要）直接头撞南墙才能意识到这一点。人们根本不在乎。
[原文] [Lenny]: I love the way you phrased that, that you have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use and...
[译文] [Lenny]: 我很喜欢你的措辞，你必须把你的愿景隐藏在人们能够理解并知道如何使用的东西后面，而且……
[原文] [Ivan]: We call it sugar-coated broccoli. People don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar, so give them the sugar then hide the broccoli inside of it.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们称之为“糖衣西兰花”（sugar-coated broccoli）。人们不想吃西兰花，但人们喜欢糖，所以给他们糖，然后把西兰花藏在里面。
[原文] [Lenny]: Wow. The other thing I've heard is that you threw away your code every time, so you rebuilt it many times. You threw away the code each time.
[译文] [Lenny]: 哇。我还听说的另一件事是，你每次都会把代码扔掉，所以你重构了很多次。你每一次都把代码扔了。
[原文] [Ivan]: That's true. Actually, it took us four year to get somewhere... but in the middle of that I realized we built on the wrong technical foundation.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是真的。实际上，我们花了四年时间才取得一些进展……但在那期间，我意识到我们建立在了错误的技术基础上。
[原文] [Ivan]: So eight, 10 years ago... Right now, all the web app runs on React. Before React wins, there's a competing technology called Web Component from Google. And it makes sense. Web Component feels like a Lego-like, the building block-like, and we're betting on that technology.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以在八年、十年前……现在所有的Web应用都运行在React上。但在React胜出之前，有一种来自谷歌的竞争技术叫做Web Component（Web组件）。这在当时是有道理的。Web Component感觉就像乐高一样，像积木一样，我们当时押注于那项技术。
[原文] [Ivan]: And then we realize because it's so new, it's just so unstable. It don't know where the bug come from. It's from your source code or from the underlying libraries? Then we have to restart the company, rebuild the whole thing. Otherwise, we're going to run out of time. So we set a code base. We set a company so we can build on our own more orthodox technology foundation.
[译文] [Ivan]: 然后我们意识到，因为它太新了，所以非常不稳定。你不知道Bug是从哪里来的。是源于你的源代码还是底层库？于是我们不得不重启公司，重构整个东西。否则，我们的时间就不够用了。所以我们要重置代码库，重置公司，以便我们能在更正统（orthodox）的技术基础上进行构建。
[原文] [Lenny]: How did you actually stay solvent all this time? A lot of people want to keep working at an idea. Oftentimes they need to pay the bills. How practically were you able to keep working for three to four years? I know there's a story of your mom loaning you some money during that time.
[译文] [Lenny]: 你们在这段时间里实际上是如何维持偿付能力（不破产）的？很多人都想坚持做一个创意，但通常他们得付账单。在实际操作上，你是如何能够坚持工作三四年的？我知道有一个关于你妈妈在那段时间借钱给你的故事。
[原文] [Ivan]: Well, Chinese mom always can help, and I'm a single child. Yeah, actually my mom helped me kickstart the company because I'm Canadian. In order to move to US, you need to register a company. So my mom helped me with the initial and raised the money. I returned the money to her.
[译文] [Ivan]: 嗯，中国妈妈总是能帮上忙的，而且我是独生子。是的，其实是我妈妈帮我启动了这家公司，因为我是加拿大人。为了搬到美国，你需要注册一家公司。所以我妈妈帮我解决了初始资金并筹集了钱。后来我把钱还给了她。
[原文] [Ivan]: Then we run out of the money so, "Hey mom, can I borrow that just to bridge us?" Which she did. I'm really grateful for that.
[译文] [Ivan]: 再后来我们的钱用光了，于是我说：“嘿妈，能不能借那笔钱帮我们周转（bridge）一下？”她借了。我对此真的非常感激。
[原文] [Ivan]: How we bridged? How do you last here so long? Because the thing you want to create does not exist, which what is called Notions. It's a Lego for software. It doesn't quite exist... And you just want that thing to exist.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们是如何熬过来的？你是怎么坚持这么久的？因为你想要创造的东西并不存在，也就是所谓的Notion。它是软件界的乐高。它还不存在……而你只是单纯地想让那个东西存在。
[原文] [Ivan]: And I grew up with Legos. It's the only toy I ever wanted, and I want the same feeling of creativity and playfulness to the toy that people can use every day.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我是玩乐高长大的。那是我唯一想要的玩具，我希望那种创造力和好玩的感觉能体现在人们每天使用的工具中。
📝 本节摘要：
在意识到纯粹的“开发者工具”无人问津后，Ivan提出了著名的“糖衣西兰花”（Sugar-coated Broccoli）策略：将赋予用户编程能力的宏大愿景（难吃的西兰花）隐藏在人们日常急需的生产力工具（甜美的糖衣）之下。
>
此外，Ivan透露了Notion早期的一段技术弯路——他们最初押注于谷歌的Web Components技术，但因其不稳定导致bug频出，最终不得不抛弃所有代码，重构整个软件。在公司资金即将耗尽的危急时刻，Ivan依靠母亲的借款度过了难关。支撑他坚持下来的动力，是他想要为世界创造一种像乐高（Lego）一样既具创造力又好玩的软件工具的执念。
[原文] [Ivan]: Our realization is actually, let's hide our vision, which is everybody can create their software, in the form factor that people do care. So what kind of tool do people use every day? Productivity software.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们的领悟实际上是，让我们把愿景——即每个人都能创造自己的软件——隐藏在人们真正关心的产品形态（form factor）里。那么，人们每天都使用什么样的工具呢？是生产力软件。
[原文] [Ivan]: So that's why it came to Notion today. If you use Notion, Notion are more understood as the productivity suite, but our intent, and if you use Notion, more you discover intent, which is that it has a no-code developer power into it and you can create almost any kind of productivity software using Notion itself. That took us two plus year to realize.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以这就是今天Notion的由来。如果你使用Notion，它更多被理解为一个生产力套件，但我们的意图——如果你用得越多，你就越能发现这个意图——是它内置了无代码（no-code）的开发能力，你可以利用Notion本身创造几乎任何类型的生产力软件。这一点我们花了两战多时间才意识到。
[原文] [Ivan]: So actually the world is not like you. The world are not developer, designer mind. That the world is they only care what's in front of them and they're so noisy.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以实际上，这个世界和你是不一样的。这个世界并不都是开发者或设计师的思维。这个世界（的人们）只关心摆在他们面前的东西，而且周围充满了噪音。
[原文] [Lenny]: There's a quote that this makes me think about where you said, "The first version of Notion was more about what I wanted than what people wanted."
[译文] [Lenny]: 这让我想起你说过的一句话：“Notion的第一个版本更多是关于我想要的，而不是人们想要的。”
[原文] [Ivan]: It's very much so because sense of maturation is you don't see the world just from your perspective but from outside your perspective. At tech, we were young. Took us multiple years. It hit your head straight into the wall to realize that. People just don't care.
[译文] [Ivan]: 确实如此，因为成熟的感觉在于你不再仅仅从自己的视角看世界，而是从外部视角来看。在技术方面，当时我们还年轻。这花了我们好几年时间。（你需要）直接头撞南墙才能意识到这一点。人们根本不在乎。
[原文] [Lenny]: I love the way you phrased that, that you have to hide your vision behind something that people understand and know how to use and...
[译文] [Lenny]: 我很喜欢你的措辞，你必须把你的愿景隐藏在人们能够理解并知道如何使用的东西后面，而且……
[原文] [Ivan]: We call it sugar-coated broccoli. People don't want to eat the broccoli but people like sugar, so give them the sugar then hide the broccoli inside of it.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们称之为“糖衣西兰花”（sugar-coated broccoli）。人们不想吃西兰花，但人们喜欢糖，所以给他们糖，然后把西兰花藏在里面。
[原文] [Lenny]: Wow. The other thing I've heard is that you threw away your code every time, so you rebuilt it many times. You threw away the code each time.
[译文] [Lenny]: 哇。我还听说的另一件事是，你每次都会把代码扔掉，所以你重构了很多次。你每一次都把代码扔了。
[原文] [Ivan]: That's true. Actually, it took us four year to get somewhere... but in the middle of that I realized we built on the wrong technical foundation.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是真的。实际上，我们花了四年时间才取得一些进展……但在那期间，我意识到我们建立在了错误的技术基础上。
[原文] [Ivan]: So eight, 10 years ago... Right now, all the web app runs on React. Before React wins, there's a competing technology called Web Component from Google. And it makes sense. Web Component feels like a Lego-like, the building block-like, and we're betting on that technology.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以在八年、十年前……现在所有的Web应用都运行在React上。但在React胜出之前，有一种来自谷歌的竞争技术叫做Web Component（Web组件）。这在当时是有道理的。Web Component感觉就像乐高一样，像积木一样，我们当时押注于那项技术。
[原文] [Ivan]: And then we realize because it's so new, it's just so unstable. It don't know where the bug come from. It's from your source code or from the underlying libraries? Then we have to restart the company, rebuild the whole thing. Otherwise, we're going to run out of time. So we set a code base. We set a company so we can build on our own more orthodox technology foundation.
[译文] [Ivan]: 然后我们意识到，因为它太新了，所以非常不稳定。你不知道Bug是从哪里来的。是源于你的源代码还是底层库？于是我们不得不重启公司，重构整个东西。否则，我们的时间就不够用了。所以我们要重置代码库，重置公司，以便我们能在更正统（orthodox）的技术基础上进行构建。
[原文] [Lenny]: How did you actually stay solvent all this time? A lot of people want to keep working at an idea. Oftentimes they need to pay the bills. How practically were you able to keep working for three to four years? I know there's a story of your mom loaning you some money during that time.
[译文] [Lenny]: 你们在这段时间里实际上是如何维持偿付能力（不破产）的？很多人都想坚持做一个创意，但通常他们得付账单。在实际操作上，你是如何能够坚持工作三四年的？我知道有一个关于你妈妈在那段时间借钱给你的故事。
[原文] [Ivan]: Well, Chinese mom always can help, and I'm a single child. Yeah, actually my mom helped me kickstart the company because I'm Canadian. In order to move to US, you need to register a company. So my mom helped me with the initial and raised the money. I returned the money to her.
[译文] [Ivan]: 嗯，中国妈妈总是能帮上忙的，而且我是独生子。是的，其实是我妈妈帮我启动了这家公司，因为我是加拿大人。为了搬到美国，你需要注册一家公司。所以我妈妈帮我解决了初始资金并筹集了钱。后来我把钱还给了她。
[原文] [Ivan]: Then we run out of the money so, "Hey mom, can I borrow that just to bridge us?" Which she did. I'm really grateful for that.
[译文] [Ivan]: 再后来我们的钱用光了，于是我说：“嘿妈，能不能借那笔钱帮我们周转（bridge）一下？”她借了。我对此真的非常感激。
[原文] [Ivan]: How we bridged? How do you last here so long? Because the thing you want to create does not exist, which what is called Notions. It's a Lego for software. It doesn't quite exist... And you just want that thing to exist.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们是如何熬过来的？你是怎么坚持这么久的？因为你想要创造的东西并不存在，也就是所谓的Notion。它是软件界的乐高。它还不存在……而你只是单纯地想让那个东西存在。
[原文] [Ivan]: And I grew up with Legos. It's the only toy I ever wanted, and I want the same feeling of creativity and playfulness to the toy that people can use every day.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我是玩乐高长大的。那是我唯一想要的玩具，我希望那种创造力和好玩的感觉能体现在人们每天使用的工具中。
📝 本节摘要：
在意识到技术基础错误且资金即将耗尽后，Ivan做出了一个艰难决定：裁掉所有员工，只留下他和联合创始人Simon Last。为了转换心境并专注于重构，他们搬到了日本京都。在那里，两人进入了近乎苦行僧般的开发模式——除了吃饭就是写代码，每天工作18小时。
>
Ivan在本章中分享了关于“重启”（Reset）的宝贵建议：不要害怕抛弃旧代码（沉没成本），因为更好的“抽象”（Abstraction）能让你以惊人的速度追回进度。最后，当被问及何时感觉到产品市场契合点（PMF）时，Ivan表示那是一个渐进的过程，直到有一天风险投资人（VC）甚至把狗粮（以此吸引注意）寄到了他们未公开的办公室地址，他才意识到Notion开始真正受人关注了。
[原文] [Lenny]: So there's also a moment where you moved to Japan. Just what was that about? Is that just escape and disconnect?
[译文] [Lenny]: 还有一个时刻是你们搬去了日本。那是怎么回事？仅仅是为了逃避和切断联系吗？
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, that was during one of the rebuild phases. During the... We know what the product should look like. It should be a productivity software with a Lego power hiding inside of it.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，那是在其中一个重构阶段。在那期间……我们知道产品应该长什么样。它应该是一个生产力软件，但隐藏着乐高（Lego）般的力量,。
[原文] [Ivan]: We build on the wrong technical foundation. And if we continue to build on the wrong ones, we're going to run out of money. Company won't exist. So we decided to lay off everybody. At that time, the Notion was five people. The layout I brought back to me and Simon, two people.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们建立在了错误的技术基础上。如果我们继续在错误的基础上构建，我们就会把钱烧光。公司将不复存在。所以我们决定裁掉所有人。那时Notion有五个人。裁员后只剩下了我和Simon，就两个人。
[原文] [Ivan]: And morale obviously there was really low. You have to say goodbye to your teammates. And so we have the idea, "Let's just go somewhere that we've never been to change the scenery a little bit." And Japan is always top on our list.
[译文] [Ivan]: 显然当时的士气非常低落。你不得不和队友们说再见。所以我们就有了这个想法：“让我们去一个从没去过的地方，换换风景吧。”而日本一直在我们的名单榜首,。
[原文] [Ivan]: So the funny thing is if we... And we subleased our apartment and office. We're actually making money living in Japan and then San Francisco. So we did that for a while. We actually travel around the world for a while just to change it up, me and Sam just coding every day and design every day. That's some of the happiest moments. Birthday every day.
[译文] [Ivan]: 有趣的是，如果我们……我们将公寓和办公室转租了出去。实际上我们在日本生活比在旧金山还能省钱（甚至赚钱）。所以我们那样过了一段时间。实际上我们环游世界了一阵子，只是为了改变环境，我和Simon每天都在写代码、做设计。那是一些最快乐的时光。（就像）每天都在过生日。
[原文] [Lenny]: I saw a stat you're coding 18 hours a day. Here's the quote I heard, "We just code, code, code. Then hey, let's go for food. Then we go eat, go back to work, and do it again."
[译文] [Lenny]: 我看到一个数据说你们每天写代码18个小时。我听到的一句话是：“我们就只是写代码、写代码、写代码。然后‘嘿，我们去吃点东西吧’。然后我们去吃饭，回来继续工作，周而复始。”,
[原文] [Ivan]: Because me and him working so well now. Even back then, it's like you know what each other other people are thinking and you can just cross through the problem space really quickly. The technical product space, design space, and just non-stop of shaping stuff.
[译文] [Ivan]: 因为我和他配合得非常默契，直到现在也是。即使在那个时候，就像你知道对方在想什么，你们可以非常快速地穿越问题空间（problem space）。无论是技术产品空间还是设计空间，就是不停地打磨东西。
[原文] [Lenny]: So maybe just to close out this thread, for people, for founders that are either struggling and just can't find a thing that's working, "I've been working on something for a long time," I'm curious what advice you'd share for sticking with it.
[译文] [Lenny]: 也许为了结束这个话题，对于那些正在挣扎、找不到有效路径的创始人，或者那些说“我已经在这个东西上做了很久了”的人，我很好奇你会分享什么建议让他们坚持下去,。
[原文] [Ivan]: Definitely don't be afraid to reset. I think courage is quite important because oftentimes you're working on things don't matter, but momentum just took you there.
[译文] [Ivan]: 绝对不要害怕重启（reset）。我认为勇气非常重要，因为很多时候你在做无关紧要的事情，但这只是惯性把你带到了那里。
[原文] [Lenny]: Don't be afraid to reset, as you just said. Tobi Lutke was on the podcast. He said the same thing. "Just be comfortable with some cost. I have done all this already and I will throw it away and start again and that's okay."
[译文] [Lenny]: 就像你刚才说的，不要害怕重启。Tobi Lutke（Shopify创始人）也上过这个播客。他说了同样的话。“要对沉没成本感到释然。我已经做了所有这些工作，但我会把它扔掉重新开始，这没关系。”
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah. I think it's not just a self-help way to say don't be afraid to reset. That's like, that's okay, that's fine. I think the more interesting point here, it's like you can create progress through better abstractions.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的。我认为说“不要害怕重启”不仅仅是一种自我安慰。那就像是说“这没事，这没关系”。我认为这里更有趣的一点是，你可以通过更好的抽象（abstractions）来创造进步,。
[原文] [Ivan]: And that thing compounds faster, can catch up to all the things you build much quicker than you ever thought. Or humans are not thinking, not good at thinking in terms of abstraction or exponentials. We're thinking in terms of linearly. If you just reset it and you find a better way to do it, you can get all the thing you have to some cost recovered really quickly.
[译文] [Ivan]: 那种东西（抽象）会更快地复利增长，能比你想象中更快地追上你之前构建的所有东西。人类不擅长、不善于用抽象或指数级的方式思考。我们习惯线性思考。如果你重启并找到了一种更好的方法来做这件事，你可以非常快地收回所有的沉没成本。
[原文] [Lenny]: Oh, man. Okay, last question about the early years. Everyone's always wondering what does product market fit feel like? You worked on it for three to four years. What was the moment? What would it look like? What was different when you're like, "Okay, this is going to work"?
[译文] [Lenny]: 噢，天哪。好的，关于早年经历的最后一个问题。每个人总是想知道产品市场契合点（Product Market Fit, PMF）是什么感觉？你为此努力了三四年。那个时刻是什么样的？它看起来像什么？当你觉得“好吧，这事儿能成了”的时候，有什么不同？
[原文] [Ivan]: I think going back to me and Simon, high is never that high, low is never that low, it never hit us as a binary state. Just like, "Oh, good. We have people who care about this thing we make now. Oh, good. People reach out to us who are paying us." And it's a very gradual ramp.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我想回到我和Simon的状态，高潮时从未太狂妄，低谷时从未太消沉，它从未作为一个二元状态（binary state，即成或败的瞬间切换）击中我们。它就像是：“噢，太好了。现在有人关心我们做的这个东西了。噢，太好了。有人联系我们要付钱给我们。”那是一个非常平缓的坡度（gradual ramp）。
[原文] [Ivan]: I think for a while, okay, once we start revenue, product grows faster now. Investors start knocking on the door was like, I remember one day it's like there's a dog food, dog treats sent to our entire office.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我想有一段时间，好吧，一旦我们开始有收入，产品现在增长得更快了。投资人开始敲门了，就像……我记得有一天，好像有狗粮、宠物零食寄到了我们整个办公室。
[原文] [Ivan]: So first of all, office wasn't public, the address. And the dog treats, why do people want this so much? So that was a moment I paused a little bit and I guess there's enough attraction for investors.
[译文] [Ivan]: 首先，办公室地址并不是公开的。然后是宠物零食，（我想）为什么人们这么想要这个（投资机会）？所以那是让我稍微停顿了一下的时刻，我想这对投资人来说已经有足够的吸引力了。
[原文] [Lenny]: And the dog treats were trying to... It was like a gift to be like, "Hey, you should talk to us. We're sending this fun gift."
[译文] [Lenny]: 那些宠物零食是试图……就像是一份礼物，意思是：“嘿，你应该跟我们要谈谈。我们送了这个有趣的礼物。”,
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, because of the way how we just hire someone in the office as a dog. Then I think we post on Twitter or something. And I said, "Why did this show up to our office?" Someone really hustled into where we are in our office address and follow us on Twitter.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，因为我们在办公室里“雇佣”了一只狗（作为员工）。我想我们在Twitter之类的地方发过这事儿。然后我说：“为什么这个会出现在我们办公室？”有人真的很卖力地挖出了我们的办公室地址并关注了我们的Twitter。
📝 本节摘要：
在本章中，Lenny询问Ivan为何在公司规模扩大后仍坚持保持团队精简（例如直到1000万营收才招聘销售，50人时才招聘产品经理）。Ivan解释说，这是基于“抽象”（Abstraction）优于“人海战术”的理念，并提出了“小巴”（Small Bus）的比喻：车越小，转弯和加速就越容易。
>
此外，Ivan分享了Notion独特的办公室文化——例如曾规定进办公室要脱鞋、拒绝使用刺眼的顶灯（Top light），以及将会议室命名为“电饭煲”或“晶体管收音机”等经典工具的原因。他将自己构建Notion的过程比作“木柜工匠”（Wood cabinet builder），强调在技术实现与美学追求之间寻找平衡的“匠心”（Craft）。
[原文] [Lenny]: I want to shift to talking about Notion today and the way you've approached it and a good segue is what you've been talking about right now is how lean and efficient you've been and how that's been a big priority for you. So a few stats I've seen. One is that you guys are profitable. You've been profitable for a couple of years now.
[译文] [Lenny]: 我想转而谈谈今天的Notion以及你的经营方式，刚才你提到的关于保持精益和高效的内容是一个很好的过渡，这显然是你的一个重点。我看到了一些数据。一个是你们已经盈利了。你们已经盈利好几年了。
[原文] [Lenny]: You didn't have a salesperson until you hit over 10 million ARR. You hired your first PM at 50 people. You've always kept the team generally really small. Why is that been important to you?
[译文] [Lenny]: 你们直到年度经常性收入（ARR）超过1000万美元时才有了第一个销售人员。你们在公司达到50人时才雇佣了第一个产品经理。你总是让团队保持在非常小的规模。为什么这对你来说很重要？
[原文] [Ivan]: I think going back to the abstraction system way of problem solving, I think we're lucky that me and Simon and Akshay, we have the skillset you probably can run a whole company... So you realize you don't need a lot. But when you can do a lot at the same time or hire people who can do that, naturally keep the company small.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我想这要回到用抽象系统（abstraction system）的方法来解决问题。我觉得很幸运，我和Simon还有Akshay，我们拥有的技能组合可能足以运营整个公司……所以你意识到你不需要很多人。当你能同时做很多事，或者雇佣能做到这一点的人时，自然就能保持公司规模虽小。
[原文] [Ivan]: And you all know you're doing product management. The overhead is actually more from internal communication. It's really hard to get people's mind to be aligned on things, to see the world in the same way. And the part that you do need people, maybe you can solve better through systems, through better tools.
[译文] [Ivan]: 你们都知道，做产品管理时，管理成本（overhead）实际上更多来自内部沟通。让人们的思想在事情上保持一致，以同样的方式看待世界，这真的很难。而那些你确实需要人的部分，也许你可以通过系统、通过更好的工具来更好地解决。
[原文] [Ivan]: Notion itself is a meta tool to build other tools. So we pretty much run everything on Notion. We use the same mindset to build our company. And accidentally, that keep our headcount low, keep our company profitable, which then puts you on a positive treadmill of you don't have to go for the next 18, 24 months to find money. You can just focus on building.
[译文] [Ivan]: Notion本身就是一个构建其他工具的“元工具”（meta tool）。所以我们要么把所有东西都运行在Notion上。我们用同样的思维模式来构建我们的公司。这意外地保持了我们的低人数，保持了公司盈利，这让你进入了一个正向的循环，你不必为了未来18或24个月的资金去奔波。你可以只专注于建设。
[原文] [Ivan]: And also because your team's small, we have this internal Notion called talent density. We don't try to track number of people but we try to track how talent-dense, revenue per employee we are. And people want to work with either more talented people. So it's a positive company group.
[译文] [Ivan]: 而且因为团队小，我们内部有一个概念叫“人才密度”（talent density）。我们不追踪人数，而是追踪我们的人才密度有多高，每个人均营收是多少。而且人们更愿意与更有才华的人一起工作。所以这是一个积极的公司群体。
[原文] [Lenny]: What advice do you have for folks that want to operate this way? What has allowed you to actually be successful while staying lean and not having as many engineers as competitors, many designers as competitors?
[译文] [Lenny]: 对于那些想以这种方式运营的人，你有什么建议？是什么让你们在保持精益、工程师和设计师数量远少于竞争对手的情况下，实际上还能取得成功的？
[原文] [Ivan]: I think just understand abstraction or system is a better curve than pecan curve, right? Linear. We internally help other people and understand this. Internally we use the metaphor that Notion's a small bus.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我认为要理解“抽象”或“系统”是一条比普通曲线（pecan curve，此处可能指线性增长曲线）更好的曲线，对吧？也就是线性的。我们在内部帮助其他人理解这一点。在内部，我们使用一个隐喻，即Notion是一辆“小巴”（small bus）。
[原文] [Ivan]: The bus, the smaller the bus, it's easier to turn corners, easier to accelerate, easier to maneuver. The bigger the bus it is, bigger the boat or bigger the bus, slow down. And as a leader in the company, you decide who sit around you on the bus seats. That dictates how fast our overall bus moves.
[译文] [Ivan]: 巴士，巴士越小，就越容易转弯，越容易加速，越容易操控。巴士越大，或者船越大、巴士越大，速度就越慢。作为公司的领导者，你决定谁坐在你周围的巴士座位上。这决定了我们整辆巴士移动的速度。
[原文] [Lenny]: Small bus. So along these lines actually, so I visited the office recently and I noticed that it's just a very cozy vibe. And I learned that you had a rule of no shoes in the office for a long time until the last office, that you all ate around one table for a long time, that you try 30 different shades of warm white on the walls before you chose. Why is that important to you?
[译文] [Lenny]: “小巴”。顺着这个思路，实际上我最近参观了你们的办公室，我注意到那里有一种非常舒适的氛围。我了解到你们很长一段时间都有“进办公室不穿鞋”的规定，直到搬进上一个办公室为止；你们很长一段时间都围在一张桌子旁吃饭；你在选择墙面颜色前尝试了30种不同的暖白色。为什么这些对你来说很重要？
[原文] [Ivan]: Maybe there are two dimension part of it. One is the pragmatic part. You just want office to be a pleasant experience to be at. Therefore, most office, the top light feels like hospital. You're just like, "Oh, man." And the white is so pale and the floor is so dark. Why use some kind of cream, make floors more friendly colors? And don't use top light. Top light is evil.
[译文] [Ivan]: 也许有两个维度的原因。一个是务实的部分。你只是希望在办公室的体验是令人愉快的。因此，大多数办公室，那种顶灯（top light）感觉像医院。你会觉得：“噢，天哪。”白色太苍白，地板太暗。为什么不用某种奶油色，让地板颜色更友好呢？还有不要用顶灯。顶灯是邪恶的（Top light is evil）。
[原文] [Ivan]: So just the office feels cozy so people spend more time. You feel more creative, more at ease in the office space. So the vision work we have is should feels like artist studio or should feel like your home.
[译文] [Ivan]: 这样办公室感觉很舒适，人们就会待更长时间。你会感到更有创造力，在办公空间里更自在。所以我们的愿景是，它应该感觉像艺术家的工作室，或者感觉像你的家。
[原文] [Lenny]: You also have a really interesting naming convention for your conference rooms.
[译文] [Lenny]: 你们的会议室命名规则也非常有趣。
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. We name our conference room after timeless tools in history. So there, I'll give you an example. iPhone's obvious one, original Macintosh, various different form of chairs, Lamy's 2000 pens, Toshiba rice cookers, and other ones because they're inspirations.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，没错。我们用历史上永恒的工具来命名我们的会议室。举个例子。iPhone是很明显的一个，初代Macintosh，各种不同形式的椅子，凌美（Lamy）2000钢笔，东芝电饭煲，还有其他的，因为它们都是灵感来源。
[原文] [Ivan]: They're just like at the end of the day, we're creating a tool. We're creating a meta tool. ... And Toshiba rice cooker changed how people eat rice in Asia for a hundred million, tens of a hundred million people. The Sony transistor radio is the first one to shrink something small and useful for people. And those things change people's life and last for decades.
[译文] [Ivan]: 就像归根结底，我们在创造一个工具。我们在创造一个“元工具”。……而东芝电饭煲改变了亚洲数以亿计的人吃米饭的方式。索尼晶体管收音机是第一个将东西缩小并变得对人们有用的产品。这些东西改变了人们的生活，并且延续了几十年。
[原文] [Ivan]: What it's like to create a software product like that? I want to inspire my team to think that way. Because software, and especially tech, it's every six months, every 12 months cycle. We don't think enough about creating something that lasts. I care creating something that at least the form factor lasts longer than 18 month.
[译文] [Ivan]: 创造一个那样的软件产品是什么感觉？我想激励我的团队去那样思考。因为软件，尤其是科技行业，是每6个月、每12个月一个周期。我们很少去思考创造某种能长久存在的东西。我在乎创造一种至少其形态（form factor）能持续超过18个月的东西。
[原文] [Lenny]: There's a quote that you tweeted once that I think of as you talk about this from Steve Jobs. "The problem is that there's just a tremendous amount of craftsmanship between a great idea and a great product."
[译文] [Lenny]: 当你谈到这个时，我想起你曾经发过的一条引用Steve Jobs（乔布斯）的话：“问题在于，在一个伟大的想法和一个伟大的产品之间，存在着大量的匠心（craftsmanship）。”
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, I think the key word here is craft. Internally, our company philosophy called crafts and values. Craft is your skill set, your taste. Value is your personal value and how do you see the world.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，我认为这里的关键词是“匠心”（craft）。在内部，我们的公司哲学叫“匠心与价值观”（crafts and values）。匠心是你的技能组合，你的品味。价值观是你个人的价值以及你如何看待世界。
[原文] [Ivan]: My wife often refer me as a wood cabinet builder. That's how at least my mindset training towards building Notion is like, "Oh, can I make this wood cabinet more beautiful and more useful and feels nicer on your hand?" And that's like you have aesthetic direction towards it and you have your technical know-how to actually make things happen.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我妻子常把我看作是一个木柜工匠（wood cabinet builder）。至少我在构建Notion时的思维训练就是这样的：“噢，我能不能把这个木柜做得更漂亮、更实用，摸起来手感更好？”这就像你对此有审美方向，同时你又有技术诀窍（technical know-how）去真正实现它。
📝 本节摘要：
在本章中，Ivan指出做产品就是不断做“权衡”（Trade-offs），这世上没有免费的午餐，而新技术（如AI之于软件，正如铝之于航空）的出现只是改变了权衡的维度。
>
随后，话题转向领导力。Ivan自认并非典型的硅谷“温和派”CEO，因中国成长背景，他更倾向于“东海岸式”的直接风格。他谈到自己作为领导者最大的进化，是被迫学会了“一对多”的讲故事能力（Storytelling），以便将愿景“推销”给团队和市场。
>
最引人深思的是他对产品失误的复盘：2023年，Notion为了追赶竞品，违背了“乐高积木”的核心理念，硬编码（Hard-coding）了“Sprints”（冲刺管理）功能。这导致产品变得臃肿且遭到用户和内部系统的排斥。最终，他们花了一年时间“拨乱反正”，重新用模块化的方式构建了该功能。Ivan总结道：如果你违背系统的逻辑去构建，系统就会反过来对抗你。
[原文] [Lenny]: Just thinking about trade-offs between decisions, so talk about just trade-offs, just how you think about making a trade-off.
[译文] [Lenny]: 考虑到决策之间的权衡，能不能谈谈你是如何思考“做权衡”（making a trade-off）这件事的？
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, I think this is quite relevant especially for product makers and business makers is there's no free lunch. You don't get something for free. You have to give up something.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，我认为这对产品制造者和商业决策者来说非常相关，那就是：天下没有免费的午餐。你不可能免费得到什么。你必须放弃一些东西。
[原文] [Ivan]: I always feels like AI language model feels like a new type of wood. It feels like aluminum. It's a new type of material. So you can make... Mass air travel wasn't available until aluminum become cheap enough that people can make airplanes that support this at cost.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我总觉得AI语言模型像是一种新型的木材。它感觉像是铝。它是一种新材料。就像在大规模航空旅行普及之前，必须等到铝变得足够便宜，人们才能以合理的成本制造出支持飞行的飞机。
[原文] [Ivan]: And I think a product maker, business maker's job is to find that sweet spot of all the multiple dimensions, then create something has a right to exist.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我认为产品制造者、商业决策者的工作，就是在所有这些多重维度中找到那个“甜蜜点”（sweet spot），然后创造出某种有理由存在的东西。
[原文] [Lenny]: And if you don't mind me saying, you're a soft-spoken leader... I imagine there are things you've had to work on and build and lean into that aren't natural to you to step into this role...
[译文] [Lenny]: 如果你不介意我这么说的话，你是一位说话温和的领导者……我想你应该需要在一些非本能的领域去努力、去适应，才能胜任这个角色……
[原文] [Ivan]: I guess you've never been in a business meeting or brainstorm session with me... I wouldn't say I'm the most soft interaction person at work. It's actually the reverse is true because I grew up in China. People way more direct.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我猜你肯定没参加过我的商务会议或头脑风暴会……我不会说我在工作中是那个互动最温和的人。实际上恰恰相反，因为我是在中国长大的。那边的人要直接得多。
[原文] [Ivan]: And you move to California, you move to US, you move to the West, you felt wow, everybody says everything's wonderful, everything's nice, but that's not true. I would say Notion's ethos probably more like a East Coast rather than West Coast.
[译文] [Ivan]: 当你搬到加州，搬到美国，搬到西方，你会觉得，哇，每个人都说一切都很棒，一切都很好，但那不是真的。我会说Notion的精神气质可能更像东海岸，而不是西海岸。
[原文] [Ivan]: As company grows, you realize... I'm pretty good at storytelling. So that's a one-to-one influence. But as a company grows, you realize you need to be one-to-many storytellers. That's a skill.
[译文] [Ivan]: 随着公司的成长，你意识到……我其实挺擅长讲故事的。那是“一对一”的影响力。但随着公司变大，你意识到你需要成为一个“一对多”的讲故事的人。这是一项技能。
[原文] [Ivan]: Then you realize it's a necessary craft for me to pick up in order to change the shape of the company... I treat it like a craft. There's some things skill that's in the video game. You need to pick up something to unlock something else...
[译文] [Ivan]: 然后你意识到这对我来说是一门必须掌握的手艺，为了改变公司的形态……我把它视为一门手艺（craft）。就像电子游戏里的技能一样。你需要拾取某个东西才能解锁其他东西……
[原文] [Lenny]: Along that journey of becoming this leader that you've become, what would you say has maybe the biggest surprise or most unexpected part of the journey... or something that didn't turn out the way you expected?
[译文] [Lenny]: 在你成长为今天这位领导者的过程中，最大的惊喜或者最意想不到的部分是什么……或者有什么事情并没有按你预期的方式发展？
[原文] [Ivan]: If you use the product in the past three years, you realize Notion product, you realize, "Hey, we actually ship bunch of things not so great." Two years ago... We get lost there for a year, a year and a half shipping something not according to our value, not according to my value.
[译文] [Ivan]: 如果你在过去三年里用过Notion，你会意识到：“嘿，我们其实发布了一堆不太好的东西。”两年前……我们在那里迷失了一年、一年半的时间，发布了一些不符合我们价值观、不符合我个人价值观的东西。
[原文] [Ivan]: Notion, we call Notion is Lego for software. We ship non-Lego pieces into our product. We're still there. We're still cleaning up part of it.
[译文] [Ivan]: Notion，我们称之为软件界的乐高。但我们往产品里发布了“非乐高式”的组件。我们现在还在处理这个问题。我们还在清理其中的一部分。
[原文] [Ivan]: I'll give you a concrete example. For a while and still is, project management is one of the most important use cases for Notion. And you can get a better project management tool just by hard coding things like sprints, milestones, all those things into your product, or you can do it in the way the Notion are being, through Lego pieces.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我给你一个具体的例子。有一段时间——现在依然是——项目管理（Project Management）是Notion最重要的用例之一。你可以通过在产品中“硬编码”（hard coding）像Sprints（冲刺）、Milestones（里程碑）这些东西来获得一个更好的项目管理工具；或者，你也可以用Notion的方式，通过乐高积木的方式来实现。
[原文] [Ivan]: What are the sprint? Sprints are clusters of a task that group together. So it's a new Lego. So introducing Lego is much harder, slower. You can instead we hard-code a sprint concept into the product. And this doesn't quite fit.
[译文] [Ivan]: 什么是Sprint？Sprint是一组任务的集群。所以它应该是一个新的乐高积木。引入新的乐高积木要难得多，也慢得多。相反，我们当时把Sprint的概念硬编码进了产品里。但这并不太合拍。
[原文] [Ivan]: And took me at least a year, a year and a half to realize that's not the way we should continue building Notion. We should go back the original Lego way of building the product.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我花了至少一年、一年半的时间才意识到，那不是我们应该继续构建Notion的方式。我们应该回到最初用乐高方式构建产品的道路上来。
[原文] [Ivan]: So there's another saying that if you build in a Lego way inside Notion in the code base or product, the system work for you. If you're building non-Lego way, the system work against you.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以还有一种说法：如果你在Notion的代码库或产品中以乐高的方式构建，系统会为你服务。如果你以非乐高的方式构建，系统就会对抗你。
📝 本节摘要：
本章开头，Ivan分享了Notion史上最惊险的危机：在COVID疫情期间，因用户量暴增，Notion唯一的Postgres数据库实例即将耗尽空间，触发了倒数几周的“末日时钟”（Doomsday Clock）。全公司不得不停止所有新功能开发，全力以赴进行数据库分片（Sharding）以避免服务彻底瘫痪,,。
>
随后，话题转向商业战略。Ivan探讨了构建“横向软件”（Horizontal Software）的痛点与机遇。他提出了“乐高盒子”（Lego Box）的隐喻：虽然Notion提供的是积木（Bricks），但企业客户购买的是印在盒子上的成品图（Solutions）。为了赢得企业市场，必须将积木打包成具体的“解决方案”，并在客户的损益表（P&L）上找到位置,。最后，Ivan解释了为何Notion会在没有刻意设计的情况下，意外成为了市场上排名第三的CRM工具,。
[原文] [Lenny]: Along those lines actually, people come on this podcast and they share all these stories of things are going awesome all the time. And this was a great example of it didn't. I'm curious if there's another story of let's say a crisis that you all went through when things were looking pretty bleak for Notion along the journey of building Notion.
[译文] [Lenny]: 顺着这个话题，实际上人们来这个播客总是分享那些一切都很棒的故事。而刚才那个（Sprints功能的失误）是一个很好的反例。我很好奇有没有其他的故事，比如你们在打造Notion的过程中经历过的一场危机，当时情况看起来相当黯淡？
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, one of the bleakest one, it's when we... During COVID, we just couldn't scale up our infrastructure. For the longest time, Simon's really good at don't do premature optimization, so for the longest time, we Notion runs on one instance of Postgres database.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，最黯淡的时刻之一是当我们……在COVID疫情期间，我们的基础设施简直无法扩容。很长一段时间以来，Simon非常擅长“不做过早优化”，所以很长一段时间，Notion都运行在单一的Postgres数据库实例上。
[原文] [Ivan]: And then we find the beefiest machine. We keep scrolling, find a beefier future machine to scale our user base, but then we're running off even the largest instance there is for Postgres. So there's a doomsday clock that when we're going to truly run out of this space to store everything in Notion and Notion got a complete shutdown.
[译文] [Ivan]: 然后我们去找最强悍（beefiest）的机器。我们不停地翻找，寻找未来更强悍的机器来承载我们的用户群，但后来我们甚至快要用光Postgres所能支持的最大实例了。所以当时有一个“末日时钟”（doomsday clock），倒计时我们何时会真正耗尽存储Notion所有内容的空间，导致Notion彻底停摆。
[原文] [Ivan]: So we stopped building any new features, all hands on deck, almost every engineer in the company trying to solve that problem. Eventually we did, but it was a close call.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以我们停止了所有新功能的开发，全员上阵（all hands on deck），公司里几乎每个工程师都在试图解决这个问题。最终我们做到了，但那是千钧一发。
[原文] [Lenny]: How close are we talking about?
[译文] [Lenny]: 我们说的是有多悬？
[原文] [Ivan]: If I recall correctly, probably in weeks running out of the time. And then as you approach the limit of what Postgres can do, behavior becomes sporadic. You really don't know which day going to hit you. But we just need to go as fast as you can to become sharding problem.
[译文] [Ivan]: 如果我没记错的话，大概还有几周时间就会耗尽。而且当你接近Postgres的极限时，系统行为会变得不稳定。你真的不知道哪一天会出问题。但我们只需要尽可能快地把它变成一个分片（sharding）问题。
[原文] [Lenny]: Yeah, I was going to ask, so the solution is sharding the database?
[译文] [Lenny]: 是的，我正想问，所以解决方案是数据库分片？
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, sharding. Don't do as late. Yes. Don't do premature optimization but plan ahead a little bit. Don't go late.
[译文] [Ivan]: 对，分片。别做得太晚。是的，不要做过早优化，但要稍微提前计划一下。别太晚了。
[原文] [Lenny]: The bittersweetness of COVID just ramping up certain businesses. People just run like they have to use online productivity software, collaboration tools.
[译文] [Lenny]: COVID的苦乐参半就在于它确实加速了某些业务。人们不得不使用在线生产力软件和协作工具。
[原文] [Lenny]: Speaking of a blessing and curse, this is a great segue to where I wanted to go in the final area I want to spend time on which is building horizontal software... The way you described it is the joy and pain of building horizontal products. So let me just ask broadly just what have you learned about what it takes to successfully build a horizontal platform type of product?
[译文] [Lenny]: 说到这种“福祸相依”，这是一个很好的过渡，正好进入我想花时间探讨的最后一个领域，那就是构建横向软件……你曾将其描述为构建横向产品的“快乐与痛苦”。所以我大概问一下，关于成功构建一个横向平台类产品需要什么，你学到了什么？
[原文] [Ivan]: First of all, no regret. And second, I wouldn't want to build anything else because going back to the value, Lego for software doesn't exist and Lego is a horizontal thing. So that's the thing we want to build.
[译文] [Ivan]: 首先，不后悔。其次，我也不想构建其他任何东西，因为回到价值观来说，软件界的乐高并不存在，而乐高本身就是一个横向的东西。所以这就是我们想要构建的。
[原文] [Ivan]: Learning-wise, I think segmentation is quite important because people can use a Lego for different things. Only hardcore Lego fans care about Lego bricks. Most people care about Lego boxes. And they actually want the Lego box to be ready-made. When you unpack the box, the set is there for you, right?
[译文] [Ivan]: 在经验教训方面，我认为细分（segmentation）非常重要，因为人们可以用乐高做不同的事情。只有硬核的乐高迷才关心乐高积木（bricks）。大多数人关心的是乐高盒子（boxes）。他们实际上想要乐高盒子是现成的。当你拆开盒子时，套装已经为你准备好了，对吧？
[原文] [Ivan]: That's what we're learning a lot, especially move up market. There's this term that took me a while to learn. It's called solutions. You need to be a solution for enterprise customer, you need to sit somewhere on a P&L to optimize for their business where due third risk. That's Lego box. It's not a Lego brick.
[译文] [Ivan]: 这是我们学到的很多东西，特别是在向高端市场进军时。有一个术语我花了一段时间才学会，叫“解决方案”（solutions）。对于企业客户，你需要成为一个解决方案，你需要在他们的损益表（P&L）上占有一席之地，以优化他们的业务或降低风险。那就是乐高盒子。它不是乐高积木。
[原文] [Lenny]: That's such a good metaphor. I feel like even if you're not building Legos for business, just this idea of what is the box that you are selling to people, how's it being positioned?
[译文] [Lenny]: 这个比喻太棒了。我觉得即使你不是在为商业构建乐高，仅仅是思考“你卖给人们的盒子是什么？它是如何定位的？”这个想法本身就很好。
[原文] [Ivan]: If you're building vertical software and naturally your vertical is the box, right? So you know you have 1 or 2% of your selling to. Pretty straightforward that your market constrains you and no judgment... The advantage of building horizontal, there's no wall, at least for in our space. We, Notion, go after entire software market, but then you need to create a wall yourself.
[译文] [Ivan]: 如果你在做垂直软件，自然那个垂直领域就是那个盒子，对吧？所以你知道你只卖给那1%或2%的人。很直接，市场限制了你，这没有对错之分……做横向软件的优势在于，没有墙（天花板），至少在我们的领域是这样。我们Notion追求的是整个软件市场，但随之而来的是你需要自己去“造墙”。
[原文] [Lenny]: So speaking of that, so I don't know if you know this. I ran a survey recently... Notion more than any other company placed very highly in many categories. For example... it was the second most popular project management tool after Jira. It was the fourth most popular docs... And then it was third in CRM, just behind Salesforce and HubSpot.
[译文] [Lenny]: 说到这个，我不道你是否知道。我最近做了一个调查……Notion在许多类别中的排名都比其他任何公司都要高。比如……它是继Jira之后第二受欢迎的项目管理工具。它是第四受欢迎的文档工具……然后在CRM（客户关系管理）中排名第三，仅次于Salesforce和HubSpot。
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, we did not intend to build CRM, but what is a CRM is relational database. That's why we give people that brick. That's a relational database and they can build CRM themselves.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，我们要没打算做CRM，但CRM本质上是什么？是关系型数据库。这就是为什么我们给人们那个“积木”。那是一个关系型数据库，他们可以自己构建CRM。
[原文] [Ivan]: I think the good advantage is if a customer use Notion, they can address those three, four use cases in one place... And save their costs, which is more and more people care about the bundling purchase nowadays.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我认为优势在于，如果客户使用Notion，他们可以在一个地方解决这三四个用例……并且节省成本，现在越来越多的人开始关心这种“捆绑购买”（bundling purchase）。
📝 本节摘要：
在本章中，Ivan将AI语言模型比作软件行业的“铝”——一种全新的原材料，它意外地解决了Notion长期以来的痛点：普通用户不擅长从零组装“积木”，而AI恰好擅长将这些模块拼凑成型。
>
随后，Ivan引用了中国古典名著《三国演义》开篇词“分久必合，合久必分”来阐述软件市场的周期律：从PC时代的碎片化，到微软Office的捆绑（合），再到SaaS时代的解绑（分），如今在AI推动下市场正再次走向捆绑（合）。
>
最后，对话进入了哲学层面。Ivan引用马歇尔·麦克卢汉（Marshall McLuhan）的名言“我们塑造了工具，工具反过来塑造我们”，强调Notion的使命是放大人类的“创造力与美”，而非像某些商业模式那样利用人类的“七宗罪”（如懒惰、贪婪等）来获利。
[原文] [Lenny]: And then you mentioned AI and it's such a good point that AI is best when it has data. And the fact that you have all of this stuff already in there gives you a lot of really interesting opportunities to leverage AI.
[译文] [Lenny]: 你提到了AI，这是一个很好的观点，即AI在拥有数据时表现最好。而你们已经拥有了所有这些内容，这给了你们很多非常有趣的机会来利用AI。
[原文] [Ivan]: We definitely did not expect language model. It's such a gift for everybody building tools, right? Complete change the material you can work with.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们绝对没有预料到语言模型的出现。这对所有构建工具的人来说都是一份大礼，对吧？它彻底改变了你可以使用的原材料（material）。
[原文] [Ivan]: One realization, it's you have a surface area that people spend daily work with, especially during writing and managing your tasks and project. It's really easy to slice the language model writing AI capability into it. So that's the first part we built.
[译文] [Ivan]: 一个感悟是，你拥有人们日常工作所花费的“表面积”（surface area），特别是在写作、管理任务和项目时。把语言模型的写作AI能力切入其中真的很容易。所以那是我们要构建的第一部分。
[原文] [Ivan]: That realization is AI is so good at reasoning and understanding and searching things, and we can do a much better job of finding and searching things if all the information are together. That's what we realized. AI is really good with bundled offerings. AI is really good with horizontal tools.
[译文] [Ivan]: 那个感悟是，AI非常擅长推理、理解和搜索事物，如果所有信息都在一起，我们就能把查找和搜索做得好得多。这就是我们意识到的。AI非常适合捆绑式产品（bundled offerings）。AI真的非常适合横向工具。
[原文] [Ivan]: I would say the third one, which is even more fascinating, it's for the longest time and it's still is one of the biggest weaknesses of building for Legos, it's hard to piece together. It's not everybody can put together a Lego set from scratch. There's always the builders and user with the Legos.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我想说第三点，这甚至更令人着迷。很长一段时间以来——现在依然是——构建乐高模式的最大弱点之一是：很难把它们拼在一起。并不是每个人都能从零开始组装一套乐高。乐高总是分为构建者（builders）和用户（users）。
[原文] [Ivan]: But guess who is really good at piecing things together, assemble things? Especially things like since Sona 3.5. AI is so bad at writing code. Coding is just assembling things together.
[译文] [Ivan]: 但你猜谁非常擅长把东西拼凑、组装在一起？尤其是像Sonnet 3.5（注：Claude模型版本）之后。AI（其实）很擅长写代码。写代码本质上就是把东西组装在一起。
[原文] [Ivan]: So now we're looking at holy shit, we spent the last five, six year building all those Lego blocks for knowledge work. If we're just putting AI coding agent on top of it, you can create any kind of knowledge, customer software, customer agent for whatever your vertical use cases you need.
[译文] [Ivan]: 所以现在我们看着（这一切）惊叹道“我靠（holy shit）”，我们过去五六年花了那么多时间为知识工作构建这些乐高积木。如果我们只是把AI编码智能体（coding agent）放在它上面，你就可以为你需要的任何垂直用例创造任何种类的知识软件、客户软件或客户智能体-。
[原文] [Lenny]: Thank you, AI. Is there anything else along the lines of building horizontal products and bundling that you think is interesting to share or important?
[译文] [Lenny]: 谢谢你，AI。关于构建横向产品和捆绑（bundling），还有什么你认为有趣或重要的东西想分享吗？
[原文] [Ivan]: I think market is like waves. There's... Who said this? There's two-way to build business, bundling and bundling, right? There's too much of a zig and the zag.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我认为市场就像波浪。有……是谁说的来着？建立商业模式有两种方式：捆绑和解绑（unbundling），对吧？总是有太多的反复（zig and zag）。
[原文] [Ivan]: Actually, my favorite version of this is there's a classic Chinese literature called Romance of Three Kingdoms. It's great novel. It talked about the three kingdom era of China and the opening sentence of this novel, it's, "Empires long united must divide, long divided must unite." That has always been bundling, unbundling.
[译文] [Ivan]: 其实，我最喜欢的版本来自于中国的一部经典文学作品《三国演义》。这是一部伟大的小说。它讲述了中国的三国时代，而这部小说的开篇第一句就是：“天下大势，分久必合，合久必分（Empires long united must divide, long divided must unite）。”这（本质上）一直就是捆绑与解绑。
[原文] [Ivan]: It's one of my favorite book to read when I was a kid, but business works same way. When there's too much, you can see this. It's like before computers, everything works on paper... Then PC happens during the '80s. The first era is a piece there actually are so many applications... So that's the first unbundling phase of software computing.
[译文] [Ivan]: 这是我小时候最爱读的书之一，但商业运作也是同样的道理。当东西太多时，你就能看到这一点。就像在电脑出现之前，一切都在纸上运作……然后80年代PC出现了。第一个时代实际上有极其多的应用程序……那是软件计算的第一个“解绑”阶段-。
[原文] [Ivan]: Then Microsoft bundled everything back into one suite in the '90s. Then the SaaS unbundled it. Now, we're at the tail end of SaaS. There's so many verticalized SaaS average company to use almost a hundred tools. It's madness. So there's more the market shifting towards more a bundling approach.
[译文] [Ivan]: 然后微软在90年代把所有东西都“捆绑”回了一个套件（Office）里。接着SaaS又把它“解绑”了。现在，我们正处于SaaS时代的尾声。有太多的垂直SaaS，平均每个公司要使用差不多一百个工具。这太疯狂了。所以市场正在向“捆绑”的方式转移-。
[原文] [Lenny]: I love that story. Okay, so last question... There's this, and you've touched on this a number of times, just the way you think about Notion, it's almost like a philosophy of how to work and be versus just a productivity tool. And so I'm just curious how you think about the relationship between tools and human potential and humans and how we live in the world.
[译文] [Lenny]: 我喜欢那个故事。好的，最后一个问题……你已经多次触及这一点，你思考Notion的方式，几乎像是一种关于如何工作和存在的哲学，而不仅仅是一个生产力工具。所以我很好奇你是如何看待工具与人类潜能、以及人类在这个世界上生活方式之间的关系的？-
[原文] [Ivan]: The tools are extensions of us. That's why our office room named as timeless tools. They extend us a little bit. And once they extend us, once we shape them, once we bring them to world, they can come back to shape us.
[译文] [Ivan]: 工具是我们的延伸。这就是为什么我们的办公室房间以永恒的工具命名。它们在一定程度上延伸了我们。而一旦它们延伸了我们，一旦我们塑造了它们，一旦我们将它们带到世界上，它们就会反过来塑造我们。
[原文] [Ivan]: One of my favorite quotes like the Marshall MacLean quotes, "We shape our tools. Then after, our tools shape us."
[译文] [Ivan]: 我最喜欢的名言之一是Marshall McLuhan（马歇尔·麦克卢汉）说的：“我们塑造了工具，此后，工具塑造了我们。”
[原文] [Ivan]: And are you extending the part, the so-called good part of human nature, or are you extending the part that might be more zero-sum, might be more negative, right?
[译文] [Ivan]: 那么，你是在延伸人性中所谓的“好”的部分，还是在延伸那些可能是零和博弈、可能是更消极的部分呢？
[原文] [Ivan]: For me, what is Legos? Lego is creativity. Lego is beauty. Software to me feels like lacking both. It's definitely lacking a lot of creativity. It's so rigid. So I believe both are human nature that worth amplifying.
[译文] [Ivan]: 对我来说，乐高是什么？乐高是创造力。乐高是美。对我来说，软件感觉这两者都缺乏。它绝对缺乏大量的创造力。它太僵化了。所以我相信这两者（创造力和美）都是值得放大的人性-。
[原文] [Ivan]: There was Sequoia famously invests in seven sins or seven human natures of human because they're so powerful if you just latch onto them, you can create a business, you can create a product. But at least I prefer to amplify creativity and beauty in the domain of software. To me, that's aligned with my values and I think can at least shape the market, shape our user of our product towards the better part of themself.
[译文] [Ivan]: 红杉资本（Sequoia）曾有一句名言，说要投资于人类的“七宗罪”或七种人性，因为如果你能抓住它们，它们的力量非常强大，你可以以此创造生意，创造产品。但我至少更愿意在软件领域放大人性的创造力和美。对我来说，这与我的价值观相符，而且我认为这至少可以塑造市场，塑造我们产品的用户，让他们向着自己更好的一面发展。
📝 本节摘要：
在访谈的最后部分，Lenny询问Ivan看到自己的产品改变世界时的感受。Ivan表示，最令他暖心的时刻并非公司估值的增长，而是看到咖啡馆里的人们在使用Notion，以及普通创作者（非程序员）通过销售Notion模板赚取数百万美元，建立起自己的生活方式业务。
>
随后，Ivan给科技从业者提出了一条核心建议：“向科技圈之外偷师”。他认为应该多读历史、研究复杂系统（Complex Systems），因为那里面蕴含着更为持久的模式。在快问快答环节，Ivan推荐了关于涌现属性（Emergent Properties）的书籍和80年代的BBC纪录片《Connections》。他透露自己是九型人格中的“7号”（创造者）与“8号”（挑战者）的混合体。最后，他向那些想要构建软件乐高的“异类”（Misfits）发出了加入Notion的邀请。
[原文] [Lenny]: It must feel so good to have a product that is so aligned with the way you want to see the world and actually working and growing at this rate and scaling and becoming this, I don't know, part of the ether of the world.
[译文] [Lenny]: 拥有一款与你想要看待世界的方式如此一致的产品，并且它实际上正在运作、以这样的速度增长、扩展，并成为——我不知道怎么形容——世界以太（ether，指无处不在的介质）的一部分，这感觉一定很好。
[原文] [Ivan]: It feels good. Yeah, it feels good that some of the most heartwarming thing is still it never gets old when you walk by coffee shop and see people using Notion.
[译文] [Ivan]: 感觉很好。是的，感觉确实很好，其中最暖心的事情之一，依然是当你路过咖啡店看到人们在使用Notion时，那种感觉永远不会过时。
[原文] [Ivan]: Oh, it feels good. And it feels good that we see people in our community can create a living selling Notion template, Notion apps, that they're not a software engineer.
[译文] [Ivan]: 噢，那感觉真好。而且看到我们社区里的人能够通过销售Notion模板、Notion应用来谋生，而他们并不是软件工程师，这种感觉也很好。
[原文] [Lenny]: That last point, I think people don't realize, so people are making millions of dollars selling Notion templates on the internet like at Etsy and other places.
[译文] [Lenny]: 关于最后一点，我觉得人们可能没意识到，实际上有人通过在Etsy和其他地方在互联网上销售Notion模板，赚了数百万美元。
[原文] [Ivan]: Consulting templates, yeah, and they're not programmers. I think I would say that's the heart of that because their domain expertise, they're YouTubers or creators. They have lifestyle brand. They know certain things but they're not makers of software.
[译文] [Ivan]: 咨询模板，是的，而且他们不是程序员。我想说这才是核心所在，因为那是他们的领域专长，他们是YouTuber或创作者。他们有生活方式品牌。他们懂某些东西，但他们不是软件制造者-。
[原文] [Ivan]: Then they can use Notion, package their workflows and expertise into Notion and templates and make limit with it. It's awesome, all that.
[译文] [Ivan]: 然后他们可以使用Notion，将他们的工作流和专业知识打包进Notion和模板中，并以此（突破）极限/谋生。这一切都太棒了。
[原文] [Lenny]: Ivan, before we get to an abridged lightning round, I'm curious if there's anything else that you wanted to touch on think might be useful for folks to hear before we get to a very exciting lightning round.
[译文] [Lenny]: Ivan，在我们进入简短的“快问快答”环节之前，我很好奇你还有什么想谈的，或者觉得对大家有用的东西想分享吗？
[原文] [Ivan]: I think people in tech, I wish more people look beyond tech to steal good ideas. It's like Tech Hacker News Twitter are so focused on the now and what's in front of it, what happened six months ago, versus humanity.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我认为在科技界的人，我希望更多人能把目光投向科技之外去“偷”一些好点子。感觉科技界的Hacker News、Twitter都太关注当下和眼前的事，关注六个月前发生了什么，而不是关注人性-。
[原文] [Ivan]: If you go back to history, there's a massive amount of patterns and shapes and trade-offs you can steal from and you can make what's in front of you much more interesting... I wish more people do that.
[译文] [Ivan]: 如果你回顾历史，会有大量的模式、形态和权衡（trade-offs）供你借鉴（偷师），你可以让你眼前的东西变得有趣得多……我希望更多人能这样做。
[原文] [Lenny]: It makes me think of the quote, "Good artist copy. Great artists steal."
[译文] [Lenny]: 这让我想起那句名言：“好的艺术家复制，伟大的艺术家偷窃。”
[原文] [Ivan]: Great artists steal, yeah. Well, Steve Jobs stole that from Picasso or something who stole from former artist probably.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，伟大的艺术家偷窃。嗯，Steve Jobs（乔布斯）是从毕加索或者其他人那里“偷”的这句话，而毕加索可能也是从之前的艺术家那里“偷”来的。
[原文] [Lenny]: Well, this is actually an amazing segue to our very abridged lightning round... The first question is just what are a couple of books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
[译文] [Lenny]: 嗯，这实际上是一个非常棒的过渡，正好进入我们非常简短的快问快答环节……第一个问题是，有哪几本书是你发现自己最常推荐给别人的？-
[原文] [Ivan]: I think the domain that are interesting the most is the complex system domain... Talking about ants, talk about beads, talk about life itself. It's just so fascinating how do with few primitives, few Lego bricks, you can create a thing called life.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我认为最有趣的领域是复杂系统（complex system）领域……谈论蚂蚁，谈论蜜蜂，谈论生命本身。这真的太迷人了，你是如何用极少的原语（primitives）、极少的乐高积木，创造出一种叫做“生命”的东西的-。
[原文] [Lenny]: Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
[译文] [Lenny]: 你最近有非常喜欢的电影或电视节目吗？
[原文] [Ivan]: I like to watch old documentaries... That's like all the old BBC ones, they're just excellent... One is a really good one to get started called Connections. I think it's called but the gentleman's name is Burke. It's about how different things from different domains inspire other domains...
[译文] [Ivan]: 我喜欢看老纪录片……比如所有那些BBC的老片子，它们简直太棒了……有一部非常适合入门的叫《Connections》（连接）。我想是这个名字，主持人的名字是Burke。它是关于不同领域的事物如何激发其他领域的灵感的……-
[原文] [Lenny]: I feel a very consistent pattern throughout all of these answers and your entire conversation of just emerging properties, connections, Legos, building abstractions.
[译文] [Lenny]: 我感觉在你所有的回答和你整个谈话中，有一个非常一致的模式，就是涌现属性（emerging properties）、连接、乐高、构建抽象。
[原文] [Ivan]: Yeah, I think I did Enneagram. My Enneagram, it's 7 and 7. 7 is, it is actually perfect with what we just talking about. 7 is creative, finding connection, see the forest and tree. 8 is they call Challenger. It's like competitive AR optimizing.
[译文] [Ivan]: 是的，我想我做过九型人格（Enneagram）测试。我的九型人格是7号和7号（口误，后文修正含义）。7号实际上完美契合我们刚才谈论的内容。7号是创造性的，寻找连接，既见树木又见森林。8号被称为“挑战者”。就像是竞争性的增强现实（AR）优化-。
[原文] [Lenny]: Final question. Do you have a life motto that you often think back to...
[译文] [Lenny]: 最后一个问题。你有什么经常回想的人生座右铭吗……
[原文] [Ivan]: I like to think things as a craft. You just make it better. Make for yourself. If it's unique enough for yourself and useful for others, things will follow.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我喜欢把事情看作一种“匠心”（craft）。你只是把它做得更好。为你自己而做。如果它对你自己来说足够独特，并且对他人有用，其他事情自然会随之而来-。
[原文] [Lenny]: And then you guys are hiring. Anything specific you're looking for? Anything people should know if they're like, "Oh shit, I want to go work here"?
[译文] [Lenny]: 你们正在招聘。有什么特别想要的人才吗？如果有人觉得“噢，天哪，我想去这儿工作”，他们应该知道些什么？
[原文] [Ivan]: We're trying to hire misfits. So if you think you're a misfit, if you're exceptional at many things especially, you want to build Lego for software, you want to take interesting spin on AI with Lego for software, then DM me.
[译文] [Ivan]: 我们正试图招聘“异类”（misfits）。所以如果你觉得你是个异类，如果你在很多方面都特别杰出，你想为软件构建乐高，你想用软件乐高在AI上玩出有趣的花样，那么请私信（DM）我。
📝 本节摘要：
在访谈的最后，主持人Lenny再次感谢Ivan的到来。Ivan也表达了谢意。在一声简单的“再见”中，这场关于软件哲学、创业艰辛与美学追求的深度对话画上了句号。
[原文] [Lenny]: Amazing. Ivan, thank you so much for being here.
[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。Ivan，非常感谢你的到来。
[原文] [Ivan]: Thank you for having me.
[译文] [Ivan]: 谢谢邀请。
[原文] [Lenny]: Bye, everyone.
[译文] [Lenny]: 大家再见。
[原文] [Ivan]: Bye.
[译文] [Ivan]: 再见。
为了方便您的回顾，我将Ivan Zhao在本次访谈中零散提到的核心观点整理成了以下三个维度的思维模型：
访谈整理工作已全部完成。 希望这份章节式双语文档能为您带来价值。如果您需要将其导出为PDF或其他格式，或有特定的部分需要重新润色，请随时告诉我。