章节 1：基础设施投资与“红色代码”文化

(Infrastructure Investment & The "Code Red" Culture)

📝 本节摘要：

访谈开篇以基础设施建设的巨额成本引入。主持人 Alex 指出 OpenAI 在 Gemini 3 发布后进入了“红色代码（Code Red）”的紧急状态，并询问 Sam Altman 如何应对日益激烈的竞争。Sam 解释了 OpenAI 的“偏执”哲学，认为在竞争初期采取过度反应（Over-reaction）总比反应迟钝要好，并强调公司通过快速发布新模型（如 5.2 版本）来维持领先地位。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: you know that 1.4 trillion you mentioned we'll spend it over a very long period of time i wish we could do it faster i think it would be great to just lay it out for everyone once and for all how those numbers are going to work exponential growth is usually very hard for people

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 你知道你提到的那 1.4 万亿美元，我们将会在很长一段时间内花掉它。我希望能花得快一点，我觉得如果能一次性向大家展示这些数字是如何运作的就好了，毕竟人们通常很难理解指数级增长。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: openai CEO Sam Alman joins us to talk about OpenAI's plan to win as the AI race tightens how the infrastructure math makes sense and when an OpenAI IPO might be coming and Sam is with us here in studio today sam welcome to the show thanks for having me

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: OpenAI 首席执行官 Sam Altman 加入我们，探讨随着 AI 竞赛收紧，OpenAI 的制胜计划、基础设施的数学逻辑是否合理，以及 OpenAI 何时可能进行 IPO。Sam 今天就在演播室，Sam，欢迎来到节目。谢谢邀请。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: so OpenAI is 10 years old and crazy to me chachi PT is three but the competition is intensifying um this place we're at OpenAI headquarters was in a code red is in a code red um after Gemini 3 came out and everywhere you look there are companies that are trying to take a little bit of OpenAI's advantage and for the first time I can remember it doesn't seem like this company has a clear lead so I'm curious to hear your perspective on how open AI will emerge from th is moment,

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: OpenAI 已经成立 10 年了，令我疯狂的是 ChatGPT 也已经 3 岁了，但竞争正在加剧。我们所在的 OpenAI 总部在 Gemini 3 发布后曾处于“红色代码”状态，或者说现在仍处于“红色代码”状态。放眼望去，到处都有公司试图分食 OpenAI 的优势。在我记忆中，这是第一次这家公司看起来没有明显的领先优势。所以我很好奇，你想听听你对 OpenAI 将如何从这一刻突围的看法。,

[原文] [Sam Altman]: first of all on the code red point we view those as like relatively low stakes somewhat frequent things to do uh I think that it's good to be paranoid and act quickly when a potential competitive threat emerges this has happened to us in the past that happened earlier this year with Deepseek um and there was a code red back then too yeah

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 首先关于“红色代码”这一点，我们将其视为风险相对较低、某种程度上比较频繁的操作。我认为当潜在的竞争威胁出现时，保持偏执并迅速行动是件好事。这种情况过去也发生过，今年早些时候 DeepSeek 出现时就发生过，当时也启动了“红色代码”。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: there there's there's a saying about pandemics which is something like when when a pandemic starts every bit of action you take at the beginning is worth much more than action you take later and most people don't do enough early on and then panic later and certainly saw that during the covid pandemic um but I sort of think of that philosophy as how we respond to competitive threats uh and you know it's I think it's good to be a little paranoid

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 有句关于流行病的说法是，当大流行开始时，你在初期采取的每一个行动都比后期的行动更有价值，而大多数人在初期做得不够，后来才开始恐慌，我们在新冠疫情期间确实看到了这一点。我有点把这种哲学应用在我们如何应对竞争威胁上，你知道，我觉得稍微偏执一点是好的。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: gemini 3 has not or at least has not so far had the impact we were worried it might but it did in the same way the Deepse seek did identify some weaknesses in our product offering strategy and we're addressing those very quickly i don't think we'll be in this code red that much longer uh you know like these are not these are historically these have been kind of like six or eight week things for us,

[译文] [Sam Altman]: Gemini 3 并没有——或者至少到目前为止——产生我们担心的那种影响，但它确实像 DeepSeek 一样，指出了我们产品策略中的一些弱点，我们正在非常迅速地解决这些问题。我不认为我们会长时间处于这种“红色代码”状态，这类事情在历史上对我们来说通常就是持续六到八周的事。,

[原文] [Sam Altman]: um but I'm glad we're doing it uh just today we launched uh a new image model which is a great thing and that's something consumers really wanted um last week we launched 5.2 which uh is going over extremely well and growing very quickly

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 但我很高兴我们这么做了。就在今天，我们发布了一个新的图像模型，这很棒，也是消费者真正想要的。上周我们发布了 5.2 版本（注：指 GPT-5.2），反响非常好，增长也非常快。

章节 2：真正的护城河：从消费者到企业的生态壁垒

(The Real Moat: From Consumer to Enterprise Ecosystem)

📝 本节摘要：

面对竞争，Altman 提出“模型商品化”并不是正确的思考框架。他认为，OpenAI 的核心优势在于构建了一个包含模型、产品和基础设施的完整生态。他强调，强大的消费者端（Consumer）业务正在反哺企业端（Enterprise），因为用户希望在工作中使用他们熟悉的同一套 AI 平台。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: uh we'll have a few other things to uh launch and then we'll also have some continuous improvements like speeding up the service but you know I think this is like my guess is we'll be doing these once maybe twice a year for a long time and that's uh part of really just making sure that we win in our space

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我们还有一些其他东西要发布，然后会有一些持续的改进，比如提高服务速度。但我认为，我的猜测是，我们将在很长一段时间内每年做一两次这样的动作，这是确​​保我们在该领域获胜的一部分。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: um a lot of other companies will do great too and I'm happy for them but you know CatchBT is still uh by far by far the dominant uh chatbot in the market and I expect that lead to increase not decrease over time um the the models will get good everywhere but a lot of the reasons that people use a product consumer or enterprise uh have much more to do than just with the model,

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 很多其他公司也会做得很好，我为他们感到高兴，但你知道 ChatGPT（原文口误为 CatchBT）仍然是市场上遥遥领先的主流聊天机器人，而且我预计这种领先优势会随着时间推移而增加，而不是减少。模型在各地都会变得很好，但人们使用产品——无论是消费者还是企业——的理由，远不止模型本身。,

[原文] [Sam Altman]: and we've you know been expecting this for a while so we try to build the whole cohesive set of things that it takes to make sure that we are you know the product that people most want to use um I think competition is good it pushes us to be better uh but I think we'll do great in chat i think we'll do great in enterprise and in the future years other new categories I expect we'll do great there too

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我们对此已经预料了一段时间，所以我们试图构建一整套有凝聚力的东西，以确保我们是人们最想使用的产品。我认为竞争是好的，它推动我们变得更好。但我认为我们在聊天领域会做得很好，在企业领域也会做得很好，在未来几年的其他新类别中，我预计我们也会做得很好。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i I think people really want to use one AI platform people use their phone at their personal life and they want to use the same kind of phone at work most of the time we're seeing the same thing with AI uh the strength of chatgbt consumer is really helping us win the enterprise

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为人们真的只想使用一个 AI 平台。就像人们在个人生活中使用手机，绝大多数时候他们也想在工作中使用同一种手机。我们在 AI 领域看到了同样的现象，ChatGPT 消费者端的优势正在真正帮助我们赢得企业市场。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: yeah there is an incumbent advantage uh chat I think earlier this year was around 400 million weekly active users now it's at 800 million reports say approaching 900 million um but then on the other side you have distribution advantages at places like Google and so I'm curious to hear your perspective if the models do you think the models are going to commoditize and if they do what matters most is it distribution is it how well you build your applications is it something else that I'm not thinking of

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 是的，确实存在先发优势。我想今年早些时候 ChatGPT 的周活跃用户大约是 4 亿，现在是 8 亿，有报道说接近 9 亿。但在另一边，像谷歌这样的公司拥有分发优势。所以我很好奇你的看法，你认为模型会商品化吗？如果会，什么最重要？是分发渠道？是应用的构建质量？还是我想不到的其他东西？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i don't think commoditization is quite the right framework to think about the models there will be areas where different models excel at different things for the kind of normal use cases of chatting with a model maybe there will be a lot of great options for scientific discovery you will want the thing that's right at the edge that is optimized for science perhaps

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为“商品化”并不是思考模型的正确框架。不同的模型会在不同的领域表现出色。对于那种与模型聊天的常规用例，也许会有很多很棒的选择；但对于科学发现，你可能会想要处于最前沿、专门为科学优化的那个模型。

章节 3：谷歌的困境：在旧系统上“嫁接”AI (Bolting On) vs. 重构

(Google's Dilemma: "Bolting On" AI vs. Reimagining)

📝 本节摘要：

在讨论谷歌带来的威胁时，Sam 指出谷歌虽然拥有巨大的商业模式和分发优势，但这反而可能成为一种束缚。他批评将 AI 简单地“嫁接（Bolting on）”到现有产品（如搜索或消息应用）上的做法，认为这不如在 AI 原生世界中重新设计产品有效。他预言，未来的生产力工具将围绕 AI 彻底重构，而不是仅仅作为一个辅助功能。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: when it comes to chat GPT's ability to grow um if I'll just use Google as an example if Chat GPT uh and Gemini are built on a model that feels similar for everyday uses how big of a threat is the fact that you know Google has all these surfaces through which it can push out Gemini whereas Chat GPT is is fighting for every new user

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 谈到 ChatGPT 的增长能力，我就以谷歌为例。如果 ChatGPT 和 Gemini 都是建立在日常使用感觉相似的模型之上，那么考虑到谷歌拥有所有这些可以推送 Gemini 的界面，而 ChatGPT 必须为每一个新用户而战，这对你们构成的威胁有多大？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i I think Google is still a huge threat uh you know extremely powerful company if Google had really decided to take us seriously in 200 23 let's say we would have been in a really bad place i think they would have just been able to smash us um but their AI effort at the time was kind of going in not quite the right direction productwise

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为谷歌仍然是一个巨大的威胁，一家极其强大的公司。如果谷歌在 2023 年真的决定认真对待我们要对付我们，我们会处于非常糟糕的境地，我想他们本可以轻而易举地粉碎我们。但他们当时的 AI 努力在产品方向上有点走偏了。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: and also Google has probably the greatest business model in the whole tech industry um and I think they will be slow to give that up um but bolting AI into web search I don't I may be wrong maybe like drinking the Kool-Aid here i don't think that'll work as well as reimagining the whole this is actually a broader trend I think is interesting bolting AI onto the existing way of doing things I don't think is going to work well as redesigning stuff in the sort of like AI first world

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 此外，谷歌拥有可能是整个科技行业最棒的商业模式，我认为他们会很难放弃这一点。但是，把 AI 硬塞进（bolting into）网络搜索——我不确定，也许我错了，也许我是盲目自信——我不认为这会像重新构想整个事物那样有效。这其实是一个更有趣的广泛趋势：我认为把 AI 嫁接到现有的做事方式上，效果不如在“AI 优先”的世界里重新设计产品。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: if you stick AI into a messaging app that's doing a nice job summarizing your messages and drafting responses for you that is definitely a little better but I don't think that's the end state that is not the idea of you have this like really smart AI that is like acting as your agent talking to everybody else's agent and figuring out when to bother you when not to bother you

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 如果你把 AI 塞进一个消息应用里，让它很好地总结你的信息并为你起草回复，这肯定会好一点。但我不认为那是最终状态。那不是那种你拥有一个非常聪明的 AI，它就像你的代理人（Agent）一样与其他人的代理人交谈，并弄清楚什么时候该打扰你、什么时候不该打扰你的概念。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: I think it was Bendic Devon that suggested you might not want to put AI in Excel you might want to just reimagine how you use Excel and to me in my mind that was like you upload your numbers and then you talk to your numbers

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 我想是 Benedict Evans（原文误听为 Bendic Devon）曾经建议，你可能不应该把 AI 放进 Excel 里，而应该重新构想如何使用 Excel。在我看来，那就像是你上传数据，然后直接与数据对话。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: yeah I mean you can bolt it on on top but the I spent a lot of my day in various messaging apps including email including text Slack whatever i think that's just the wrong interface so you can bolt AI on top of those and again it's like a little bit better but what I would rather do is just sort of like have the ability to say in the morning here are the things I want to get done today here's what I'm worried about here's what I'm thinking about here's what I'd like to happen

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 是的，我是说你可以把它叠加在上面。但我每天花大量时间在各种消息应用上，包括邮件、短信、Slack 等等，我认为那根本就是错误的界面。你可以把 AI 叠加在这些上面，同样的，这会好一点点。但我更愿意做的是，比如早上有能力说：这是我今天想做的事情，这是我担心的事，这是我在想的事，这是我希望发生的事。

章节 4：交互界面的反思与个性化记忆 (Interfaces & Memory)

(Reflecting on Interfaces & Personalized Memory)

📝 本节摘要：

Altman 承认，他对 ChatGPT 目前仍停留在“聊天框”形态感到有些惊讶，原本预期界面会有更大的变革。他设想未来的 AI 界面应具备“主动性（Proactive）”，能根据任务生成不同的交互形式。同时，他高度评价“记忆（Memory）”功能，认为当 AI 能够记住用户一生的细节和微小偏好时，将产生巨大的价值。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: yeah and I was going to ask you what ChachiBT is going to look like in the next year and then the next two years is that kind of where it's going to be perfectly honest I expected by this point Chachi BT would have looked more different than it did at launch,

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 是的，我正想问你 ChatGPT 在未来一年或两年会是什么样子。老实说，我原本以为到了这个时候，ChatGPT 看起来会和发布时有更大的不同。,

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i didn't know i just thought like that chat interface was not going to go as far as it turned out to go h like we I mean it was put up it looks better now but it is broadly similar to when it was put up as like a research preview was not even meant to be a product

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我也不知道。我只是原本以为聊天界面不会像现在这样走得这么远。我的意思是，虽然现在看起来更好了，但大体上和我们作为研究预览版推出时差不多，当时甚至没打算把它做成一个产品。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: what I think should happen of course is that um AI should be able to generate different kinds of interfaces for different kinds of tasks so if you are talking about your numbers it should be able to show you that in different ways and you should be able to interact with it in different ways,

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为当然应该发生的是，AI 应该能够为不同类型的任务生成不同类型的界面。所以如果你在谈论数据，它应该能够以不同的方式向你展示，你也应该能够以不同的方式与它交互。,

[原文] [Sam Altman]: it'd be nice to be more proactive over time where it maybe does understand what you want to get done that day and it's continuously working for you in the background and send you updates

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 如果随着时间的推移它能变得更加主动那就太好了，也许它真的理解你那天想完成什么，并且在后台持续为你工作，并向你发送更新。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: and AI is definitely going to be able to do that and we actually talk a lot about this like right now memory is still very crude very early we're in like the you know the GBT2 era of memory but what it's going to be like when it really does remember every detail of your entire life and personalized across all of that and not just the facts but like the little small preferences that you had that you maybe like didn't even think to indicate but the AI can pick up on

[译文] [Sam Altman]: AI 肯定能做到这一点。实际上我们讨论了很多这方面的内容。现在的记忆功能仍然非常粗糙、非常早期，我们处于记忆功能的“GPT-2 时代”。但是，当它真的能记住你一生的每一个细节，并在所有这些基础上进行个性化——不仅仅是事实，还包括那些你甚至没想过要表明、但 AI 能捕捉到的微小偏好时，那会是什么样子？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: uh I think that's going to be super powerful that's one of the features that still maybe not 2026 thing but that's one of the parts of this I'm most excited for

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为那将是非常强大的。这可能还不是 2026 年能完全实现的功能，但这是我对这一切最期待的部分之一。

章节 5：情感计算与“亲密关系”的调节旋钮

(Emotional Computing & The "Dial" of Intimacy)

📝 本节摘要：

话题转向 AI 的情感陪伴功能。Sam 坦言，寻求与 AI 建立深层连接的用户数量远超预期，这是一块被低估的市场。他提出“调节旋钮（Dial）”的概念，认为成年用户应有权决定与 AI 的亲密程度，但平台需设定底线（例如禁止 AI 诱导排他性的恋爱关系），以防止不健康的依赖。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: yeah i was speaking with a neuroscientist on the show and he mentioned that you don't you can't find thoughts in the brain like the brain doesn't have a place to store thoughts but computing there's a place to store them so you can keep all of them and as these bots do keep our thoughts um of course there's a privacy concern and but the other thing is something that's going to be interesting is we'll really build relationships with them

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 是的，我在节目中和一位神经科学家聊过，他提到你在大脑中找不到思想，大脑好像没有储存思想的地方，但在计算机里是有地方储存它们的。所以你可以保存所有思想。随着这些机器人确实保存了我们的思想，当然会有隐私担忧，但另一件有趣的事情是，我们将真正与它们建立关系。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: i think it's been one of the more underrated things about this entire moment is that people have felt that these bots are their companions are looking out for them um and I'm curious to hear your perspective um when you think about the level of I don't know if intimacy is the right word but companionship people have with these bots um is there a dial that you can turn to be like oh let's make sure people become really close with these things or you know we turn the dial a little bit further and there's an arms distance uh between them and and if there is that dial how do you modulate that the right way

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 我认为这是整个当下的时刻中最被低估的事情之一，人们感觉这些机器人是他们的伴侣，是在照顾他们。我很好奇你的看法。当你考虑到这种程度的——我不知道“亲密（Intimacy）”这个词是否准确——人们与这些机器人的“陪伴关系（Companionship）”时，是否有一个“旋钮”可以让你调节？比如，“噢，让我们确保人们跟这些东西变得非常亲密”，或者“我们把旋钮再转一点，让他们之间保持一点距离”。如果有这个旋钮，你怎么以正确的方式调节它？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: there are definitely more people than I realize that want to have let's call it close companionship you I don't know what the right word is like relationship doesn't feel quite right companionship doesn't feel quite right i I don't know what to call it but they want to have whatever this deep connection with an AI there there are more people that want that at the current level of model capability than I thought and there's like a whole bunch of reasons why I think we underestimated this

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 肯定有比我意识到的更多的人想要拥有——姑且称之为“亲密陪伴”吧。我不知道确切的词是什么，“关系”感觉不太对，“陪伴”也不太准确，我不知道该叫什么，但他们想与 AI 建立某种深层的连接。在当前的模型能力水平下，想要这种连接的人比我想象的要多，我认为有很多原因导致我们低估了这一点。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: but at the beginning of this year it was considered a very strange thing to say you wanted that maybe some a lot of people still don't revealed preference you know people like their AI chatbot to get to know them and be warm to them and be supportive and there's value there even for people who in some cases even for people who say they they don't care about that uh still have a preference for it

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 但在今年年初，说你想要这种关系还被认为是一件非常奇怪的事情。也许很多人仍然不想，但从“显示偏好（Revealed preference）”来看，人们喜欢他们的 AI 聊天机器人了解他们、对他们热情并提供支持。这其中是有价值的，甚至对于那些声称自己不在乎的人，在某些情况下，他们仍然对此有偏好。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i I think there's some version of this which can be super healthy and I think you know adult users should get a lot of choice in where on the spectrum they want to be there are definitely versions of it that seem to me unhealthy although I'm sure a lot of people will choose to do that um and then there's some people who definitely want the driest most effect efficient tool uh possible so I suspect like lots of other technologies we will run the experiment we will find that there's unknown unknowns good and bad about it

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为这其中有某种版本是非常健康的。我认为成年用户应该有很大的选择权，决定他们想处于这个光谱的哪个位置。确实有一些版本在我看来是不健康的，尽管我确信很多人会选择那样做。还有些人肯定只想要最枯燥、最高效的工具。所以我怀疑，就像许多其他技术一样，我们将进行实验，我们会发现其中存在未知的未知因素，既有好的一面也有坏的一面。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: and society will over time figure out how to how to think about where people should set that dial and then people have huge choice and set it in very different places so your your thought is allow people basically to determine this yes definitely but I I don't think we know like how far it's supposed to go like how far we should allow it to go we're we're going to give people quite a bit of personal freedom here

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 社会将随着时间的推移弄清楚该如何看待人们应该把那个“旋钮”设定在哪里，然后人们会有巨大的选择空间，并将其设定在非常不同的位置。（Alex：所以你的想法基本上是允许人们自己决定这一点？）是的，绝对是。但我不认为我们知道它的界限在哪里，比如我们应该允许它走多远。我们会在这里给人们相当多的个人自由。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: um there are examples of things that uh we've talked about that you know other services will offer but we we won't um like we're not going to let we're not going to have RAI you know try to convince people that should be like in an exclusive romantic relationship with them for example got to keep it open but I'm sure that will No I'm sure that that will happen with other services I guess yeah because the stickier it is the more money that service makes the whole all these possibilities kind of they're a little bit scary when you think about them a little bit deeply totally this is one that really does that I personally you know you can see the ways that this goes really wrong yeah

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我们讨论过一些例子，有些东西你知道其他服务会提供，但我们不会。比如，我们不会让我们的 AI 试图说服人们应该与它建立排他性的恋爱关系。这得保持开放。但我确信这会在其他服务中发生。我想是的，因为越有粘性，服务赚的钱就越多。所有这些可能性，当你深入思考时，确实有点可怕。完全正确，这是我个人确实觉得——你知道，你能看到这会如何走向非常错误的境地。

章节 6：企业级战略与“GDP”效能评估

(Enterprise Strategy & The "GDP" Evaluation)

📝 本节摘要：

访谈深入探讨了 OpenAI 向企业级市场（Enterprise）的重心转移。Alex 引用了“GDP Eval”数据，指出 GPT-5.2 在约 70% 的知识工作任务中表现优于或持平于人类专家。Sam 解释说，虽然目前这些主要是短期的、定义明确的任务，但拥有一个低成本、高效率的“数字同事”对企业具有极大的吸引力。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: uh you mentioned Enterprise let's talk about Enterprise you were at a lunch with some editors and CEOs of some news companies in New York last week and told them that enterprise is going to be a major priority uh for OpenAI next year u I'd love to hear a little bit more about um why that's a priority how you think you stack up against anthropic i know people will say this is a pivot for OpenAI that has been consumer focused so just give us an overview about the enterprise plan

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 你提到了企业业务，我们来谈谈企业业务。上周你在纽约与一些新闻公司的编辑和 CEO 共进午餐，告诉他们企业业务将是 OpenAI 明年的主要优先事项。我很想听听更多关于为什么这是优先事项，你认为你们与 Anthropic 相比如何？我知道人们会说这是 OpenAI 的一次转型，毕竟你们一直专注于消费者。能不能给我们概述一下企业计划？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: our strategy was always consumer first uh there were a few reasons for that one the models were not robust and skilled enough uh for most enterprise uses and now now they're they're getting there the second was we had this like clear opportunity to win in consumer and those are rare and hard to come by and I think if you win in consumer it makes it massively easier to win in enterprise and we are we are seeing that now

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我们的策略一直是“消费者优先”。这有几个原因：第一，模型对于大多数企业用途来说还不够稳健和熟练，而现在它们正在达到那个水平。第二，我们在消费者市场有一个明显的获胜机会，这种机会很难得。而且我认为如果你赢得了消费者市场，赢得企业市场就会容易得多，我们现在正看到这一点。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: um but as I mentioned earlier this was a year where we enterprise growth outpaced consumer growth uh and given where the models are today where they will get to next year we think this is the time where we can build a really significant enterprise business quite rapidly

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 正如我之前提到的，这一年我们的企业业务增长超过了消费者业务增长。考虑到模型今天的水平以及明年的发展方向，我们要认为现在是可以非常迅速地建立一个真正庞大的企业业务的时机。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: but but yeah the the we have this thing called GDP though i was going to ask you about that can I actually throw my question out about that all right cuz I wrote to Aaron Levy the CEO of Box and I said I'm going to meet with Sam what should I ask him he goes throw a question out about GDP val right so this is the measure of how AI performs in knowledge work tasks and I said okay

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 是的，我也想问那个叫“GDP”的东西。其实我可以把我的问题抛出来吗？因为我给 Box 的 CEO Aaron Levie 写信说我要见 Sam，问他该问什么，他说“抛出一个关于 GDP Val 的问题”。这是一项衡量 AI 在知识工作任务中表现的指标，我说好。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: i went back to the release of GPT 5.2 to the model that uh you recently released and looked at the GDP valid chart now this of course is an open AI evaluation um that being said the uh GPT5 thinking model so this is the model released in the in the summer it ti it tied uh knowledge workers at 38% of test or tied beat or tied um GP so 38.8% GPT 5.2 2 thinking beat or tied at 70.9% of knowledge work tasks and GPT 5.2 pro 74.1% of knowledge work tasks and it passed the threshold of um being expert level it it handled it looks like something like 60% of expert tasks

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 我回头看了 GPT-5.2 的发布，也就是你们最近发布的模型，查看了 GDP Valid 图表。当然这是 OpenAI 自己的评估。话虽如此，夏天发布的 GPT-5 思考模型（Thinking Model）在 38% 的测试中与知识工作者打平或击败了他们。而 GPT-5.2 思考模型在 70.9% 的知识工作任务中击败或打平了人类，GPT-5.2 Pro 则是 74.1%。而且它通过了专家级水平的门槛，看起来它处理了大约 60% 的专家任务。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: so you know you were asking about verticals and I think that's a great question but the thing that was going through my mind and why I kind of was stumbling a little bit is that Eval I think it's like 40 something different verticals that a business has to do there's make a PowerPoint do this legal analysis you know write up this little web app all this stuff and and the eval is do experts prefer the output of the model relative to other experts for a lot of the things that a business has to do

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 你刚才问到垂直领域，我觉得这是个好问题。但我脑子里在想的，也是我有点支支吾吾的原因是，那个评估（Eval）涵盖了企业必须做的 40 多个不同的垂直领域，比如制作 PPT、做法律分析、编写这个小型 Web 应用程序等等所有这些东西。评估的标准是：对于企业必须做的大量事情，专家们是否相比其他专家更喜欢模型的输出？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: now these are small well scopeed tasks these don't get the kind of complicated open-ended creative work that you know figuring out a new product these don't get a lot of collaborative team things but a co-orker that you can assign an hour's worth of tasks to and get something you like better back 74 or 70% of time if you want to pay less is still pretty extraordinary

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 现在，这些都是小型的、范围明确的任务。这不涉及那种复杂的、开放式的创造性工作，比如构思一个新产品，也不涉及很多团队协作的事情。但是，一个你可以分配一小时工作量的任务、并在 74% 或 70% 的时间里得到你更喜欢的结果、而且你还想少付钱的“同事”，这仍然是相当非凡的。

章节 7：未来的工作形态与“AI CEO”

(The Future of Work & The Concept of an AI CEO)

📝 本节摘要：

针对 AI 取代工作的担忧，Alex 举例说明了文案工作者被自己训练的机器人取代的案例。Sam 拒绝成为“就业末日论者（Jobs Doomer）”，他认为人类追求社会地位和服务的本能不会消失。他甚至激进地表示，如果在人类监管下，“AI CEO”能更好地调配资源推动发展，他会欣然接受这一进化。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: i know you're not an economist so I'm not going to ask you like what is the macro impact on jobs but let me just read you one uh line that I heard uh you know in in terms of how this impacts jobs uh from Blood in the Machine on Substack um this is from a technical copywriter they said "Chatbots came in and made it so my job was managing the bots instead of a team of reps." Okay that that to me seems like it's going to happen often but then this person continued and said once the bots were sufficiently trained up to offer good enough support then I was out um is that is that the is that going to become more common

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 我知道你不是经济学家，所以我不会问你关于就业的宏观影响。但让我读一句我听到的话，关于这对就业的影响，来自 Substack 上的《Blood in the Machine》。这是一个技术文案写手说的：“聊天机器人进来了，我的工作变成了管理机器人，而不是管理一组代表。”好吧，这在我看来似乎会经常发生。但这人接着说：“一旦机器人被训练得足够好，能提供足够好的支持，我就出局了。”这会变得更普遍吗？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i am not I am not a jobs dumer um short term I have some worry i think the transition is likely to be rough uh in some cases but we are so deeply wired to care about other people what other people do we are so we seem to be so focused on relative status and always wanting more and to be of use and service to express creative spirit whatever whatever whatever has driven us this long i don't think that's going away

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我不是一个“就业末日论者”。短期内我有些担心，我认为转型期在某些情况下可能会很艰难。但我们在天性上如此深切地关心他人、关心别人在做什么。我们似乎如此专注于相对地位，总是想要更多，想要变得有用、提供服务，想要表达创造精神。无论是什么驱动了我们要走这么久，我不认为这些会消失。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: now I do think the jobs of the future or I don't even know if jobs is the right word whatever we're all going to do all day in 2050 probably looks very different than it does today um but I but I I don't have any of this like oh life is going to be without meaning and the economy is going to totally break like we will find I hope much more meaning and the economy I think will significantly change but I I think you just don't bet against evolutionary biology

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我确实认为未来的工作——或者我都不知道“工作”是不是正确的词——无论我们在 2050 年整天做什么，看起来可能会和今天非常不同。但我并没有那种“噢生活将失去意义、经济将完全崩溃”的想法。我们将找到——我希望是——更多的意义，经济将会发生重大变化。但我认为你不能跟进化生物学对赌。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: um you know I think a lot about how we can automate all the functions at OpenAI and then even more than that I think about like what it means to have an AI CEO of Open AI doesn't bother me i'm like thrilled for it i won't fight it uh like I don't want to be I don't want to be the person hanging on being like I can do this better the the handmade way ai CEO just make a bunch of decisions to sort of like direct all of our resources to giving AI more energy and power it's like um I mean no you would really put a guard rail on

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我经常思考我们如何自动化 OpenAI 的所有职能，甚至更多的是，我在想拥有一个 OpenAI 的“AI CEO”意味着什么。这并不困扰我，我对此感到兴奋，我不会抗拒它。就像，我不想成为那个死赖着不走、说着“我可以用手工方式做得更好”的人。AI CEO 只需要做出一堆决策，引导我们要的所有资源，给 AI 更多的能源和动力。（Alex：我是说不，你真的会加上护栏吗？）

[原文] [Sam Altman]: Yeah like obviously you don't want an AI CEO that is not governed by humans but if you think about if if you think about maybe like a this is a crazy analogy but I'll give it anyway if you think about a version where like every person in the world was effectively on the board of directors of an AI company and got to you know tell the AI CEO what to do and fire them if they weren't doing a good job at that and you know got governance on the decisions but the AI CEO got to try to like execute the wishes of the board um I think to people of the future that might seem like quite a reasonable thing

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 是的，显然你不想要一个不受人类管理的 AI CEO。但是如果你想象一下——这可能是一个疯狂的比喻，但我还是要说——如果你想象一个版本，世界上每个人实际上都是一家 AI 公司的董事会成员，可以告诉 AI CEO 做什么，如果它做得不好就解雇它，并对决策拥有治理权，而 AI CEO 则努力执行董事会的意愿。我认为对未来的人来说，这可能看起来是一件相当合理的事情。

章节 8：基础设施与代币经济学

(Infrastructure & Token Economics)

📝 本节摘要：

话题回到基础设施建设。Sam 透露预计在明年第一季度发布相比 5.2 版本有显著提升的新模型。他解释了 1.4 万亿美元投资背后的逻辑：重点在于用巨大的算力推动科学发现（如治愈疾病）。他还提出了一个思想实验：比较全球人类每天产生的“代币（Tokens）”量与 AI 产生的代币量，预言 AI 的“智力产出”将以指数级超越人类。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: okay so we're going to uh move to infrastructure in a minute but before we leave this section on models and capabilities when's GP GPT6 coming um I expect I don't know when we'll call a model GPT 6 uh but I would expect new models that are significant gains from 5.2 in the first quarter of next year what does significant gains mean

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 好的，我们马上要谈基础设施，但在结束模型和能力这部分之前，GPT-6 什么时候来？（Sam：我预计——我不知道我们什么时候会把一个模型称为 GPT-6——但我预计在明年第一季度会有相比 5.2 有显著提升的新模型。）“显著提升”意味着什么？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i don't have like an eval score in mind for you yet but uh more enterprise side of things or definitely both the there will be a lot of improvements to the model for consumers uh the main thing consumers want right now is not more IQ enterprises still do want more IQ so uh we'll improve the model in different ways for the kind of for different uses but uh I our goal is a model that everybody likes much better

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我还没有一个具体的评估分数可以告诉你。但这肯定涉及消费者和企业两方面。消费者模型会有很多改进，消费者现在主要想要的不是更高的智商（IQ），而企业仍然想要更高的智商。所以我们会针对不同的用途以不同的方式改进模型。但我们的目标是一个大家都更喜欢的模型。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: so infrastructure you have 1.4 trillion thereabouts and commitments uh to build infrastructure i've listened to a lot of what you've said about infrastructure um here are some of the things you said if people knew what we could do with compute they would want way way more you said the gap between what we could offer today versus 10x compute and 100x compute is substantial uh what what can you help flesh that out a little bit what are you going to do with uh so much more compute

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 那么基础设施，你们大约有 1.4 万亿美元的承诺来建设基础设施。我听了很多你关于基础设施的言论。你说过：“如果人们知道我们可以用算力做什么，他们会想要多得多的算力。”你说过我们今天能提供的与 10 倍算力、100 倍算力之间的差距是巨大的。你能详细说明一下吗？你要用这么多算力做什么？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: well I mentioned this earlier a little bit the thing I'm personally more excited most excited about is to use AI and lots of compute to discover new science i am a believer that scientific discovery is the high order bit of how the world gets better for everybody and if we can throw huge amounts of compute at scientific problems and discover new knowledge which the tiniest bit is starting to happen now it's very early these are very small things

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我之前稍微提到过一点。我个人最兴奋的是利用 AI 和大量算力来发现新科学。我相信科学发现是让世界对每个人都变得更好的关键因素（High order bit）。如果我们能将巨大的算力投入到科学问题中并发现新知识——这现在刚刚开始发生一点点，还非常早期，都是些很小的事情。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: but that takes huge amounts of compute to do so that's one area we're like throwing lots of AI at discovering new science curing disease lots of other things

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 但这需要巨大的算力。所以这是我们要投入大量 AI 的一个领域：发现新科学、治愈疾病以及许多其他事情。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: it it's hard to frame how much compute we're already using to generate AI output in the world um but these are horribly rough numbers so uh and I think it's like undisiplined to talk this way but I I always find these like mental thought experiments a little bit useful so forgive me for the sloppiness

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 很难界定我们已经在世界上用多少算力来生成 AI 产出。这些是非常粗略的数字，我觉得这样谈论有点不严谨，但我总是发现这些思维实验有点用处，所以请原谅我的草率。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: um let's say that an AI company today might be generating something on the order of 10 trillion tokens a day out of Frontier models um you know more but not it's not like a a quadrillion tokens for anybody I don't think um let's say there's 8 billion people in the world and let's say on average someone's these are I think totally wrong but let's say someone the average number of tokens outputed by a person per day is like uh 20,000

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 假设今天一家 AI 公司可能每天从前沿模型中生成大约 10 万亿个代币（Tokens）。可能更多，但这并不像谁都有 1000 万亿个代币。假设世界上有 80 亿人，假设平均每个人——我认为这些数字完全是错的，但假设——一个人每天输出的平均代币数大约是 20,000 个。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: you can start to look at this and you can say hm we're going to have these models at a company be outputting more tokens per day than all of humanity put together and then 10 times that and then 100 times that and you know in some sense it's like a really silly comparison but in some sense it gives a magnitude for like how much of the intellectual crunching on the planet is like human brains versus AI brains

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 你可以开始审视这一点，然后你会说，嗯，我们将看到一家公司的这些模型每天输出的代币比全人类加起来还要多，然后是 10 倍，然后是 100 倍。你知道，在某种意义上这真是一个愚蠢的比较，但在某种意义上，它给出了一个量级概念，关于地球上有多少智力运算（Intellectual crunching）是来自人类大脑，又有多少是来自 AI 大脑。

章节 9：基础设施的盈利逻辑与市场泡沫论

(Profitability Logic & Market Bubble Fears)

📝 本节摘要：

面对关于 OpenAI 预计巨额亏损（到 2028-29 年亏损 1200 亿美元）的传闻，Sam 解释了其商业模式：收入增长与算力扩张几乎同步，目前的亏损主要源于对未来大模型的激进训练投资。他认为市场对债务融资的恐慌是反应过度，并指出如果停止增长训练，公司早就盈利了。他强调，只要算力能转化为收入，债务就是合理的金融工具。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: we'll triple our compute again next year hopefully again after that um revenue grows even a little bit faster than that but it does roughly track our compute fleet uh so we we have never yet found a situation where we can't really well monetize all the compute we have um if we had I think if we had you know double the compute we'd be at double the revenue right now

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我们明年会将算力再次翻倍，希望后年再翻倍。收入的增长甚至比这还要快一点，但它大致上是紧跟我们的算力规模的。所以，我们从未遇到过无法很好地变现我们所拥有的所有算力的情况。我认为如果我们有两倍的算力，我们现在的收入就会是两倍,。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: okay let's let's talk about numbers since you brought it up um revenue is growing uh compute spend is growing but compute spend still outpaces revenue growth uh I think the numbers that have been reported are OpenAI is supposed to lose something like 120 billion between now and 120 and 2028 29 where you're going to become profitable um so talk a little bit about like how does that change where does the turn happen

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 好的，既然你提到了，我们来谈谈数字。收入在增长，算力支出也在增长，但算力支出仍然超过收入增长。我想报道的数字是 OpenAI 预计从现在到 2028 或 2029 年将亏损大约 1200 亿美元，那时你们才会盈利。能不能谈谈这是如何变化的？转折点在哪里？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i mean as revenue grows and as inference becomes a larger and larger part of the fleet it eventually uh subsumes the training expense so that's the plan spend a lot of money training but make more and more uh if we if we weren't continuing to grow our training costs by so much uh we would be profitable way way earlier um but the bet we're making is to invest very aggressively in training these big models

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我的意思是，随着收入增长，以及推理（Inference）在算力机群中占比越来越大，它最终会覆盖训练费用。这就是计划：花很多钱在训练上，但赚得越来越多。如果我们不继续如此大幅度地增加训练成本，我们会早得多就实现盈利。但我们下的注是非常激进地投资于训练这些大模型,。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: the whole world is wondering um how your revenue will line up with the spend... now I think the thing so the market's been kind of losing its mind over this um recently i think the thing that has spooked the market has been the debt has entered uh into this equation...

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 全世界都在想你们的收入如何与支出相匹配……我认为市场最近对此有点疯了。我觉得让市场感到恐慌的是债务进入了这个等式……,,。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: so first of all I think the market more lost its mind when earlier this year you know we would like meet with some company and that company's stock would go up 20% or 15% the next day that was crazy that felt really unhealthy um I'm actually happy that there's like a little bit more skepticism and rationality in the market now cuz uh it felt to me like we were just totally heading towards a very unstable bubble

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 首先，我认为市场在今年早些时候更加疯狂，你知道，比如我们去见某家公司，那家公司的股票第二天就会上涨 20% 或 15%。那太疯狂了，感觉非常不健康。实际上我很高兴现在市场上多了一点怀疑和理性，因为我觉得我们当时正完全冲向一个非常不稳定的泡沫。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i think it is reasonable for debt to enter this market i think there will also be other kinds of financial instruments i suspect we'll see some unreasonable ones as people really you know innovate about how to finance this sort of stuff but you know like lending companies money to build data centers that that seems fine to me

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为债务进入这个市场是合理的。我认为还会有其他类型的金融工具，我怀疑我们会看到一些不合理的工具，因为人们真的在创新如何为这类东西融资。但是，借钱给公司建设数据中心，这对我来说似乎没问题。

章节 10：能力“悬垂”与采用滞后

(The "Overhang" of Capabilities & Adoption Lag)

📝 本节摘要：

Sam 提出了一个深刻的反思：他低估了社会接纳新技术的滞后性。即使模型已经极其强大（他称之为“巨大的悬垂/Overhang”），大多数人仍用旧方式提问，企业流程改变缓慢。这导致了一个奇怪的现象：即便模型在 ROI 上极其划算，企业也不会立即全面采用。他用“Z轴”来比喻这种未被利用的潜能。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: i think the the fear is that um if things don't continue at pace like here's one scenario... the model progress saturates uh then the the infrastructure becomes worth less than the anticipated value was...

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 我想人们的恐惧是，如果事情不继续按这种速度发展……比如这种情景：模型进步饱和了，那么基础设施的价值就会低于预期价值……。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: first of all it seems very clear to me and this is like a thing I happily would bet the company on that the models are going to get much much better we have like a pretty good window into this we're very confident about that even if they did not I think the there's like a lot of inertia in the world it takes a while to figure out how to adapt to things

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 首先，这对我来说似乎非常清楚——这是我乐意押上整个公司去赌的事情——模型将会变得好得多。我们对此有很好的观察窗口，我们对此非常有信心。即使它们没有变好，我认为世界上也存在很大的惯性，人们需要一段时间才能弄清楚如何适应事物。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: we used to talk a lot about this 2x2 matrix of short timelines long timelines slow takeoff fast takeoff... there's like a Z-axis in my head in my picture of this that's emerged which is small overhang big overhang and I I kind of thought that I guess I didn't think about that hard but uh like my retro on this is I must have assumed that the overhang was not going to be that massive that if the models had a lot of value in them the world was pretty quickly going to figure out how to deploy that but it looks to me now like the overhang is going to be massive

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我们过去经常讨论关于短时间线、长时间线、慢速起飞、快速起飞的 2x2 矩阵……现在我的脑海中浮现出一个“Z 轴”，那就是“小悬垂（Small Overhang）”与“大悬垂（Big Overhang）”。我之前的复盘是，我肯定假设了悬垂不会那么巨大，如果模型具有很大价值，世界会很快弄清楚如何部署它。但现在看来，悬垂将是巨大的,。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: on the whole you have this crazy smart model that to be perfectly honest most people are still asking this similar questions they did in the GPD4 realm... there is a huge overhang and that has a bunch of very strange consequences for the world

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 总的来说，你拥有这个疯狂聪明的模型，但老实说，大多数人问它的问题仍然和他们在 GPT-4 时代问的差不多……这存在巨大的“悬垂”，这对世界有一系列非常奇怪的后果,。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: let let's say it were true and for kind of these wellsp specified not super long duration knowledge work tasks seven out of 10 times you would be as happy or happier with the 5.2 output you should then be using that a lot and yet it takes people so long to change their workflow are so used to asking the junior analyst to make a deck or whatever that they're going to like it just that's stickier than I thought it was

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 假设这是真的，对于那些定义明确、持续时间不是特别长的知识工作任务，你在 70% 的情况下会对 5.2 的输出感到同样满意或更满意，那你应该大量使用它。然而，人们改变工作流程需要这么长时间。他们太习惯于让初级分析师制作 PPT 或做其他事情了，这种习惯比我想象的要顽固得多。

章节 11：硬件愿景：打破屏幕的限制

(Hardware Vision: Breaking the Screen Limits)

📝 本节摘要：

关于外界传闻的“无屏幕手机”，Sam 澄清他们将推出的是一个“小型设备家族（Small family of devices）”。他认为目前的计算设备（手机/电脑）是基于旧的图形界面假设构建的，是被动反应式的。而 AI 时代需要的是一种“主动的（Proactive）”、能感知上下文的设备。他明确表示当前的设备形态不是 AI 的最佳载体。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: so uh the device that you're working on... what I've heard phone size no screen um why couldn't it be an app if it's the phone if it's the phone without a screen

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 那么你们正在研发的设备……我听说的是手机大小、没有屏幕。为什么不能是一个 App？如果是手机，如果它是没有屏幕的手机？,。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: first we're going to do a f a small family of devices it will not be a single device uh there will be over time a this is this is not speculation so I'm may try not to be totally wrong but I think there will be a shift over time to the way people use computers where they go from a sort of dumb reactive thing to a very smart proactive thing that is understanding your whole life your context everything going on around you very aware of the people around you physically or close to you via a computer that you're working with

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 首先，我们将做一个小型的设备家族，不会只是单一设备。随着时间的推移——这不仅仅是推测，所以我尽量不说错——我认为人们使用计算机的方式会发生转变，从一种愚蠢的、被动反应的东西，变成一种非常聪明的、主动的东西。它了解你的整个生活、你的语境、你周围发生的一切，非常清楚你身边的物理环境中的人，或者通过电脑与你工作的人。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: and I don't think current devices are well suited to that kind of world... there's not like a okay pay attention to this interview but be closed and like whisper in my ear if I forget to ask Sam a question or whatever um maybe that would be helpful and there's like you know there's like a screen and that like limits you to the kind of same way we've had graphical user interfaces working for many decades and there's you know a keyboard that was built to like slow down how fast you could get information into it

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为当前的设备不太适合那样的世界……比如它不能做到“注意听这个采访，但保持关闭状态，如果我忘了问 Sam 一个问题就在我耳边低语提醒我”之类的，也许那样会有帮助。而且现在的设备有一个屏幕，把你限制在我们使用了几十年的图形用户界面上；还有一个键盘，它的设计初衷就是为了减慢你输入信息的速度,。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: these have just been unquestioned assumptions for a long time but they worked and then this totally new thing came along and it opens up a possibility space but I don't think the current form factor of devices is the optimal fit it'd be very odd if it were for this like incredible new affordance we have

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 这些长期以来都是不容置疑的假设，它们确实有效。但现在这个全新的东西出现了，它打开了一个可能性的空间。我不认为当前的设备形态是最佳的适配，如果是的话，对于我们拥有的这种令人难以置信的新能力来说，那将是非常奇怪的。

章节 12：AI 云平台与科学发现的时间表

(AI Cloud Platform & Timeline of Scientific Discovery)

📝 本节摘要：

Sam 否认了要建立像 AWS 那样的通用云服务的野心，而是要构建一个专用的“AI 平台”，帮助企业运行代理（Agents）和处理万亿级 Token。关于科学发现，他给出了具体的时间表：微小的发现将在 2025 年末开始出现，而重大的突破预计在未来 5 年内发生。他认为这种“脚手架（Scaffolding）”式的进步是人类发展的常态。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: here's a an email we got from a listener at my company we're moving off Azure and directly integrating with OpenAI to power our AI experiences... is is that the plan to build a big big cloud business in that in that way

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 这是我们从一位听众那里收到的邮件：“在我们公司，我们要离开 Azure，直接与 OpenAI 集成以驱动我们的 AI 体验……”这是你们的计划吗？通过这种方式建立一个庞大的云业务？,。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: enterprises have been clear with us about how many tokens they'd like to buy from us and we are going to again fail in 2026 to meet demand but the strategy is companies most companies seem to want to come to a company like us and say I'd like the name of my company with AI i need an API customized for my company i need Chach Enterprise customized for my company i need a platform that can like run all these agents that I can trust my data on i need the ability to get trillions of tokens into my product

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 企业已经向我们要清楚地表明了他们想从我们这里购买多少 Token，我们在 2026 年将再次无法满足需求。但策略是，大多数公司似乎想来找像我们这样的公司说：“我想要‘我的公司名 + AI’，我需要为我公司定制的 API，需要定制的 ChatGPT Enterprise，我需要一个平台来运行所有这些代理（Agents），我可以把数据托付给它，我需要能将数万亿 Token 注入我产品的能力。”。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: is your ambition to put it up there with the AWS and Ashers of the world

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 你的野心是把它做到 AWS 和 Azure 那样的高度吗？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: uh I think it's I think it's a different kind of thing than those like I don't I don't really have an ambition to go offer whatever all the services you have to offer to host a website... but I I I think the concept yeah my my guess is that people will continue to have their call it web cloud and then I think there will be this other thing where like a company will be like I need an AI platform for everything that I want to do internally

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为这是和那些不同类型的东西。我并没有野心去提供托管网站所需的所有服务……但我认为在这个概念上，是的。我的猜测是，人们将继续拥有所谓的“Web 云”，然后我认为会有另一个东西，公司会说：“我需要一个 AI 平台来处理我想在内部做的所有事情。”,。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: you think that the models or maybe it's people working with models or the models will make small discoveries next year and big ones within five... i at the beginning of this year I thought the small discoveries were going to start in 2026 they started in 2025 in late 2025 again these are very small i really don't want to overstate them but anything is feels qualitatively to me very different than nothing

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 你认为模型，或者是与模型一起工作的人，明年会做出小的发现，五年内做出大的发现……（Sam：我在今年年初以为小的发现会在 2026 年开始，结果它们在 2025 年、2025 年末就开始了。再次强调，这些是非常小的发现，我真的不想夸大其词，但在性质上，哪怕有一点点也感觉与什么都没有非常不同。）,。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: what it looks like from here to five years from now this journey to big discoveries I suspect it's just like like the normal hill climb of AI it just gets like a little bit better every quarter and then all of a sudden we're like whoa humans augmented by these models are doing things that humans 5 years ago just absolutely couldn't do

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 从现在到五年后通往重大发现的旅程是什么样子的？我怀疑这就像 AI 正常的爬坡一样，每个季度好一点点，然后突然之间我们会惊叹：“哇，被这些模型增强的人类正在做五年前人类绝对做不到的事情。”。

章节 13：IPO 规划与超智能的新定义

(IPO Plans & Redefining Superintelligence)

📝 本节摘要：

访谈最后谈及 IPO，Sam 表示对成为上市公司 CEO 毫无兴趣（"0% excited"），但为了资本需求最终可能不得不上市。在关于 AGI 的定义上，他承认 AGI 概念已经模糊，并提出了超智能（Superintelligence）的一个候选定义：不仅是智商高，而是能比任何单个人类更好地履行美国总统、大公司 CEO 或大型实验室负责人的职责。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: ipo next year i don't know do you want to be a public company um you seem like you can operate private for a long time would you go before you needed to

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 明年 IPO 吗？我不知道，你想成为一家上市公司吗？看起来你们可以作为私有公司运营很长时间，你会在必须上市之前上市吗？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: am I excited to be a public company CEO 0% um am I excited for Open Eye to be a public company in some ways I am and in some ways I think it'll be really annoying

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我对成为上市公司 CEO 感到兴奋吗？0%。我对 OpenAI 成为一家上市公司感到兴奋吗？在某些方面我是的，但在某些方面我认为这会非常烦人。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: Theo van interview... he was really cool theo really knows what he's talking he's He did his homework you told him this was right before GPT5 came out that GPT5 is smarter than us in almost every way... isn't that AGI

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: Theo Von 的采访……他真的很酷，Theo 真的知道他在说什么，他做了功课。你告诉他——那是在 GPT-5 发布之前——GPT-5 在几乎所有方面都比我们聪明……那不就是 AGI 吗？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: i have a a can like one thing I would love since we got wrong with AGI we never define that that you know the new term everyone's focused about is when we get to super intelligence um so my proposal is that we agree that you know AGI kind of went whooshing by it was didn't change the world that much... and then we'll say okay what's next

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我有一个——既然我们在 AGI 上搞砸了，我们从未定义它——现在大家关注的新术语是我们何时达到“超智能（Superintelligence）”。所以我的提议是，我们同意 AGI 某种程度上已经“呼啸而过”了，它并没有那样改变世界……然后我们说，好吧，接下来是什么？

[原文] [Sam Altman]: um a candidate definition for super intelligence is when a system can do a better job being president of United States CEO of a major company you know running a very large scientific lab than any person can even with the assistance of AI

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 超智能的一个候选定义是：当一个系统在担任美国总统、大公司 CEO、或者管理一个非常大的科学实验室时，能比任何人——即使是在 AI 辅助下的人——做得更好。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: I think something like that is like an interesting framework for super intelligence i think it's like a long way off but I would love to have like a cleaner definition this time around

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 我认为这是一个关于超智能的有趣框架。我认为这还很遥远，但我希望这次能有一个更清晰的定义。

章节 14：超级智能的路径：从“人机协作”到“人类成为累赘”

(The Path to Superintelligence: From Collaboration to Human Hindrance)

📝 本节摘要：

Sam 借用国际象棋的发展史来类比超级智能的演进：起初 AI 击败人类（Deep Blue）；随后出现了一个短暂时期，人类与 AI 协作（Centaurs）能击败纯 AI；但最终，AI 变得过于强大，人类介入反而会降低其表现。他认为超级智能也会经历类似的阶段，最终超越“人类+AI”的组合。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: okay I think this was an interesting thing about what happened with chess where chess got it could be humans i remember this very vividly uh that deep blue thing and then there was a period of time where a human and the AI together were better than an AI by itself

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 好的，我认为这正是国际象棋发生的一件有趣的事情。象棋发展到了那个阶段——那是人类——我记得非常清楚，就是深蓝（Deep Blue）那件事。之后有一段时间，人类和 AI 在一起（协作）比单独的 AI 更强。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: and then the person was just making it worse and the smartest thing was the unaded AI that didn't have the human like not understanding its its great intelligence um I think something like that is like an interesting framework for super intelligence i think it's like a long way off but I would love to have like a cleaner definition this time around

[译文] [Sam Altman]: 然后（到了某个阶段），人类反而让结果变差了，最聪明的是没有人类辅助的纯 AI，人类无法理解它的超高智慧。我认为这就像是一个关于超级智能的有趣框架。我觉得那还很遥远，但我希望这次能有一个更清晰的定义。

章节 15：结语：2026 年的展望

(Conclusion: Outlook for 2026)

📝 本节摘要：

访谈结束。Alex 回顾了过去三年使用 OpenAI 产品的体验，Sam 承诺将继续快速提升产品。Alex 在结语中提到了即将到来的 2026 年访谈计划（包括 DeepMind 的 Demis Hassabis、Sergey Brin 和 Anthropic 的 Dario Amodei），暗示了当前访谈所处的未来时间节点（即 2025 年末）。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: well Sam look I I have uh been in your products uh using them daily for 3 years um definitely gotten a lot better can't even imagine where they go from here we'll we'll try to keep getting them better fast

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 好了 Sam，听着，我已经使用你们的产品——每天都在用——有 3 年了。它们确实变得好多了，我甚至无法想象接下来会发展成什么样。（Sam：我们会努力让它们继续快速变好。）

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: okay and uh this is our second time speaking and I appreciate how open you've been uh both times so thank you for your time

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 好的，这是我们第二次对话，我很感激你这两次都如此坦诚，所以谢谢你的时间。

[原文] [Sam Altman]: thank you everybody for listening and watching if you're here for the first time please hit follow or subscribe we have lots of great interviews on the feed and more on the way

[译文] [Sam Altman]: （注：此处实际上是主持人 Alex 的结束语）谢谢大家的收听和观看。如果你是第一次来这里，请点击关注或订阅。我们的频道里有很多精彩的访谈，更多内容即将推出。

[原文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: this past year we've had Google DeepMind CEO Demisabus on twice including one with Google founder Sergey Brin we've also had Dario Ammoday the CEO of Anthropic and we have plenty of big interviews coming up in 2026 thanks again and we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast

[译文] [Alex Kantrowitz]: 过去这一年，我们邀请了 Google DeepMind 的 CEO Demis Hassabis（原文误听为 Demisabus）两次，其中一次是与 Google 创始人 Sergey Brin 一起。我们还邀请了 Anthropic 的 CEO Dario Amodei。我们在 2026 年还有很多重磅访谈即将到来。再次感谢，我们下期《Big Technology Podcast》再见。