章节 1：访谈开场——从硅谷“宠儿”到改变生活的 AI 产品

📝 本节摘要：

本章包含播客的开场预告（Teaser）与正式介绍。主持人 Matt Turck 介绍了嘉宾 Chris Pedregal 及其产品 Granola——一款在硅谷备受推崇的 AI 笔记工具。正式对话开始后，Matt 坦言自己是 Granola 的狂热用户，并引用媒体报道称其为硅谷的“必用产品”。Chris 分享了他在旧金山举办用户聚会时的惊喜经历，意识到产品引发了某种有机的社区共鸣。Matt 更是将该产品描述为“改变生活（life-changing）”的体验，称其彻底改变了他毕生的笔记习惯。

[原文] [Chris - Teaser]: ai is going to let humans work differently think differently there needs to be a tool that supports that and that's what we want to build so this idea of a contextually aware workspace like AI powered workspace like that's what we wanted to build with granola

[译文] [Chris - 预告片段]: AI 将让人类以不同的方式工作、不同的方式思考，这就需要有一种工具来支持这种变化，而这正是我们要构建的。所以，这种具备上下文感知能力的工作空间（contextually aware workspace），或者说 AI 驱动的工作空间，正是我们想通过 Granola 构建的。

[原文] [Chris - Teaser]: and we said okay great perfect we got the vision that's what we want to build where the heck do we start

[译文] [Chris - 预告片段]: 然后我们说，好极了，完美，我们有了愿景，这就是我们要造的东西，但到底该从哪里开始呢？

[原文] [Matt - Intro]: hi I'm Matt Turk from Firstark welcome to the Matt podcast my guest today is Chris Pedreal the CEO of Granola in just over a year since he was launched Granola has emerged from the crowded category of AI notetakers as a bit of a darling in Silicon Valley not just as a hut AI startup but as an AI product that many in tech circles use rapidly every day and often describe as life-changing

[译文] [Matt - 开场白]: 嗨，我是来自 FirstMark 的 Matt Turck，欢迎收听 MAD Podcast。我今天的嘉宾是 Granola 的 CEO Chris Pedregal。在发布仅一年多的时间里，Granola 已经从拥挤的 AI 笔记工具赛道中脱颖而出，成为了硅谷的一位“宠儿”（darling）。它不仅仅是一家热门的 AI 初创公司，更是一款科技圈许多人每天都在高频使用、并常被形容为“改变生活（life-changing）”的 AI 产品。

[原文] [Matt - Intro]: this episode is a masterass in how to build a beloved product in the age of AI full of practical tips and lessons that Chris has learned along the way including how to achieve simplicity in product design

[译文] [Matt - 开场白]: 本期节目是一堂关于如何在 AI 时代打造受人喜爱产品的大师课（masterclass），充满了 Chris 一路走来学到的实用技巧和经验教训，包括如何在产品设计中实现极简主义。

[原文] [Chris - Teaser]: we looked at it all and we cut out 50% of it we basically redesigned and cut out 50%,

[译文] [Chris - 预告片段]: 我们审视了全部功能，然后砍掉了 50%，我们基本上重新设计并删减了 50% 的内容。

[原文] [Matt - Intro]: knowing when to exit stealth in this really really busy market launching something more polished so that when people use it they're they're wowed by it is is a way to stand out

[译文] [Matt - 开场白]: （我们将讨论）在这个非常拥挤的市场中，如何判断何时结束隐身模式（stealth），以及如何通过发布打磨得更完善的产品，让用户一上手就感到惊艳，从而脱颖而出。

[原文] [Matt - Intro]: and what it's like being a let entrance to a category and then having to compete with a bunch of big companies including potentially the open AIs of the world open AI is going to try to do everything to everyone and I think the question is can we do something way better for a specific use case and a specific type of user

[译文] [Matt - 开场白]: （我们还将讨论）作为一个该品类的后来者，不得不与一众大公司竞争是什么感觉，这其中甚至包括像 OpenAI 这样的巨头。OpenAI 试图满足所有人的所有需求，但我认为问题在于，我们能否针对特定的用例和特定类型的用户，把某件事做得好得多？

[原文] [Matt - Intro]: there's a lot to learn for AI builders in this one please enjoy this great conversation with Chris

[译文] [Matt - 开场白]: 本期节目有很多值得 AI 构建者学习的地方，请享受这场与 Chris 的精彩对话。

[原文] [Matt]: hey Chris welcome

[译文] [Matt]: 嘿，Chris，欢迎。

[原文] [Chris]: thanks Matt

[译文] [Chris]: 谢谢你，Matt。

[原文] [Matt]: all right so not to fanboy you from the very beginning of this conversation but I have to say I'm a very rabid user of Granola and actually our entire firm at First Mark um is and um you know when I start when I started using Granola a few months ago I thought I was pretty cool a pretty early adopter kind of kind of situation

[译文] [Matt]: 好了，虽然不想一开始就表现得像个迷弟（fanboy），但我必须说，我是 Granola 的狂热用户（rabid user），实际上我们 FirstMark 整个公司都是。你知道，当我几个月前开始使用 Granola 时，我还觉得自己挺酷的，属于那种早期采用者（early adopter）的情况。

[原文] [Matt]: and then there was uh this article in the information a couple weeks ago that basically said well everybody in Silicon Valley uses the product all the time so uh maybe not so much of a of an early adopter from that perspective after all just curious about how that feels uh as a as a founder to have a product that's just widely embraced by our entire at least little tech ecosystem

[译文] [Matt]: 然后几周前《The Information》上有一篇文章，大意是说现在硅谷每个人都在时刻使用这个产品。所以从这个角度看，我也许并不算什么早期采用者了。我很好奇，作为一名创始人，拥有一个被我们整个——至少是这小小的科技生态系统——广泛拥抱的产品，感觉如何？

[原文] [Chris]: it is it feels both amazing and and daunting is the honest response i uh we did this this was last maybe November uh um so we're based in London right and we went to SF for a board meeting and someone on the team said "Hey should we rent out a bar and just email users and say if you'd want to come and we' like sure you know and we thought we thought like five people would show up."

[译文] [Chris]: 老实说，这种感觉既美妙又令人诚惶诚恐（daunting）。大概是去年 11 月吧，我们是在伦敦办公的，当时去旧金山参加董事会会议。团队里有人提议说：“嘿，我们要不要租个酒吧，给用户发邮件说如果你想来就来？”我们当时觉得“行啊”，心想大概也就五个人会来吧。

[原文] [Chris]: And like this two-fol bar was just full of full of people and um and then they were just the the level of detail with which they were talking about the product or things we should change or things that they had noticed it it really hit me cuz it when you you build a product for people but really being in a room with that community all at once it it made me realize there's oh there's something special that's happening here that we didn't necessarily design for it's kind of organically happening and now it's kind of our job to to follow that,

[译文] [Chris]: 结果那个双层酒吧挤满了人。而且他们谈论产品的细节程度，无论是建议我们修改的地方还是他们注意到的细节，真的触动了我。因为当你为人们打造产品时是一回事，但真正和整个社区共处一室时，我才意识到：“噢，这里发生了一些特别的事情。”这不一定是我们设计好的，它是某种有机发生的现象（organically happening），而现在的任务就是去顺应这股潮流。

[原文] [Matt]: yeah and and one amazing which uh I'm sure you've heard tons but it's just my personal experience and looking online and talking to people a description of the granola experience that keeps coming back is life-changing uh which is insane but that's again truly my experience

[译文] [Matt]: 是的，还有一个惊人的评价——我确信你已经听过无数次了，但这确实是我的亲身体验，而且在网上看评论或与人交谈时，对 Granola 体验的描述总是回归到一个词：“改变生活（life-changing）”。这听起来很疯狂，但这真的也是我的体验。

[原文] [Matt]: I tweeted that at some point I was uh you know all my life a rabid uh notetaker that's how my brain works and it helps me think through the meeting or whatever I'm listening to uh and pretty pretty much overnight that lifelong habit just disappeared once I tried granola a couple of times and trusted it which u again not too fine for you but uh it's it's been an incredible experience

[译文] [Matt]: 我曾发推特说过，你知道我这辈子都是个疯狂的记笔记的人，那是我的大脑运作方式，它帮助我在会议中或听东西时理清思路。然而几乎是一夜之间，一旦我试用了几次 Granola 并建立了信任，这个伴随我一生的习惯就消失了。再一次，我不想表现得太像个粉丝，但这确实是一次不可思议的体验。

[原文] [Chris]: i appreciate that i think um I think that will I think that speaks to the moment in history that we're living in where AI now has all these capabilities um that are going to transform the way we work and the way we think and hopefully you that experience you just described with granola will keep happening in many more aspects of your work life as you're you're basically able to outsource lower level tasks and allow you to think higher level um which is why I think it's such an exciting time to be to be building and to be living quite frankly,

[译文] [Chris]: 很感谢你这么说。我认为这印证了我们所处的历史时刻，AI 现在拥有了这些能力，将彻底改变我们的工作方式和思考方式。希望你刚才描述的使用 Granola 的那种体验，会在你工作生活的更多方面不断发生，因为你基本上能够将低层次的任务外包（outsource）出去，从而让你进行更高层次的思考。这也是为什么我认为坦率地说，现在是一个令人兴奋的构建产品和生活的时代。

章节 2：“第二大脑”的困境——退化还是增强？从谷歌地图到《瓦力》的启示

📝 本节摘要：

本章讨论转向了更深层的哲学层面。Matt 提出，使用 AI 作为“第二大脑”虽然令人兴奋，但也让人担忧这是否会导致人类记忆力的退化，因为记忆曾是人类生存的关键。Chris 对此表示认同，并用“谷歌地图”作为类比：虽然我们的导航能力退化了，但迷路的时间也大幅减少，这是一种权衡。他引用了“我们塑造工具，工具反过来塑造我们”的名言，强调了 Douglas Engelbart 关于“增强人类智能”而非替代人类的愿景。最后，Chris 生动地描绘了人类未来的两种可能性：一种是像电影《瓦力》中那样四肢退化的巨婴，另一种是像《钢铁侠》中拥有 Jarvis 辅助的超级人类，而这取决于我们现在如何构建工具。

[原文] [Matt]: I think when you released your uh team product a few months ago you used the expression second brain and it's it's basically what it feels like and in some ways a life-changing part does have a little bit of a daunting aspect as a user because it sort of feels like you're outsourcing your memory to technology and memory is such a part of who we are as humans and that's how you know humans survived for for centuries like whoever was able to remember facts was was was able to just function well in in society so it it does feel like a like a wonderful tech journey but like something a little more than that actually possibly

[译文] [Matt]: 我记得当你几个月前发布团队产品时，你用了“第二大脑（second brain）”这个表述，这也是产品给人的基本感觉。但在某种程度上，“改变生活”这一部分对用户来说确实带有一点令人望而生畏（daunting）的色彩，因为这感觉像是你在把记忆外包给技术。而记忆是我们人类身份如此重要的一部分，也是人类几个世纪以来生存的方式——比如谁能记住事实，谁就能在社会中良好运作。所以，这感觉确实像一段美妙的科技旅程，但实际上可能远不止于此。

[原文] [Chris]: i completely agree and I think there's going to be as as uh as AI gets smarter and we build more and more tools and workflows on top of it we're constantly going to be letting go of things that we used to do and letting machines do that for us and there are times when I think that's ne incredibly beneficial and I think there are probably times where that's harmful right like ne negative beneficial

[译文] [Chris]: 我完全同意。我认为随着 AI 变得越来越聪明，我们在其之上构建越来越多的工具和工作流，我们将不断地放手那些我们过去自己做的事情，让机器代劳。我认为有些时候这是极其有益的，但也有些时候这可能是有害的，或者说是某种负面效益。

[原文] [Chris]: uh the example I always use is um Google maps right on on the phone so it's very clear there were cities I lived in before Google Maps came out and I can go back to them i can still navigate them without a map and there are the cities I've lived in since Google Maps have come out and I have like there's a very small area of that city that I can navigate without without a map

[译文] [Chris]: 我总是举的一个例子是手机上的谷歌地图。很明显，有些城市是我在谷歌地图出现之前居住过的，现在回到那里，我仍然可以在没有地图的情况下导航；而在谷歌地图出现之后我居住过的城市，我大概只能在非常小的区域内不靠地图认路。

[原文] [Chris]: um so you could say oh my my navigation skills have atrophied 100% the number of hours I've walked around lost in a city trying to find a place has also gone down dramatically right so it's like I'll I'll take in that instance I'll definitely take that trade-off

[译文] [Chris]: 所以你可以说，噢，我的导航技能已经 100% 退化（atrophied）了。但我在城市里迷路、试图寻找某个地方所花费的小时数也急剧下降了，对吧？所以在这种情况下，我绝对愿意接受这种权衡（trade-off）。

[原文] [Chris]: um but I think you have to be thoughtful case by case about what tools you use and what you decide to outsource and do we think long term that uh what happens like we become we have more time to actually think and reason but uh it sort of feels like models are doing that for us as well

[译文] [Chris]: 但我认为你必须针对具体情况（case by case），深思熟虑地决定使用什么工具以及决定外包什么。从长远来看，我们会变成什么样？比如我们是否会拥有更多时间去进行真正的思考和推理？但现在感觉模型好像连这些也在替我们要做了。

[原文] [Chris]: i mean I I think this is the this is why I'm so excited to be building Grdola right now to be working in the space because I I think that future is kind of up to us right in ter like there's this great quote which is we shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us

[译文] [Chris]: 这就是为什么我现在对构建 Granola 和在这个领域工作感到如此兴奋，因为我认为未来某种程度上取决于我们。就像那句名言说的：“我们塑造工具，然后工具塑造我们。”

[原文] [Chris]: and when you think about AI and um the future world and how it fits into our society I I think there's this big question of like what you know what do we outsource to AI where does AI replace humans and and where does it augment humans and um where like me personally Sam Granola we're really big fans of the augmentation idea

[译文] [Chris]: 当你思考 AI、未来世界以及它如何融入我们的社会时，我认为有一个巨大的问题：我们到底要把什么外包给 AI？AI 在哪里取代人类？又在哪里增强（augment）人类？就我个人以及 Sam（联合创始人）和 Granola 而言，我们是“增强”理念的忠实信徒。

[原文] [Chris]: this goes back to Douglas Anglebart in the 50s right augmenting human intelligence and his his view honestly his stuff I feel like people don't talk about him enough it's just so inspiring like he's known for being the inventor of the mouse and I think the mouse is like the the least important thing he's come up with

[译文] [Chris]: 这可以追溯到 50 年代的道格拉斯·恩格尔巴特（Douglas Engelbart），即“增强人类智能”的概念。老实说，我觉得人们对他的讨论还不够多，他的思想太令人受启发了。他因发明鼠标而闻名，但我认为鼠标可能是他提出的最不重要的东西。

[原文] [Chris]: and and basically this was um when computers barely existed like the computers that existed were in the military and the Navy and they they like filled up whole um uh whole floors right and there are a a bunch of folks actually who are true visionaries at that time who imagine this world where computers would be accessible to people they'd be common and they would be tools for work and tools for thought

[译文] [Chris]: 基本上那是电脑还几乎不存在的时代，当时存在的电脑都在军队和海军里，占据了整整几层楼。而那时有一群真正的远见卓识者，构想了一个电脑变得人人可用、普及化，并成为工作工具和思维工具（tools for thought）的世界。

[原文] [Chris]: and the way Engelbart talked about it he was like we are becoming you know the world's becoming more globalized our uh the world's becoming more complex and we need better tools to help us collectively solve more complex problems and that's I mean talk about an amazing narrative right i feel like we don't get enough of that today

[译文] [Chris]: 恩格尔巴特当时是这样描述的：世界正变得越来越全球化，也越来越复杂，我们需要更好的工具来帮助我们集体解决更复杂的问题。这是一个多么惊人的叙事啊，我觉得这种叙事在今天已经不够多了。

[原文] [Chris]: uh you know I wish I wish uh whatever I I have a lot of love for for the tech world but you know there's something to be said about some you know counterculture builders in the ' 50s60s7s even like Steve Jobs when he started Apple like these folks have like uh you know a counter revolutionary world view of the world and like how personal computing and tooling could be used for that

[译文] [Chris]: 我对科技界充满热爱，但不得不提的是 50、60、70 年代那些反主流文化（counterculture）的构建者们，甚至像 Steve Jobs 创办苹果时那样。这些人都持有一种反革命式的世界观，思考个人计算和工具如何能为此服务。

[原文] [Chris]: so in terms of um the atrophy of the future I like I guess I was trying to think about examples of this is have you seen um Wall-E the the Pixar movie yeah yeah you know the humans like the humans are fat and can't walk people floating in space yes exactly so I feel like that's one extreme future for humanity post AI right

[译文] [Chris]: 所以关于未来的退化（atrophy），我在想例子，你看过皮克斯的电影《瓦力（Wall-E）》吗？（Matt: 看过。）你知道里面的人类，胖得走不动路，漂浮在太空中。（Matt: 没错。）我觉得那就是后 AI 时代人类的一种极端未来。

[原文] [Chris]: and then there's another one which is um I think maybe like Jarvis from Iron Man right which is kind of like okay now I can I can fly i can solve things I can never do before or am I like this fat blob like floating through space and I think it's a little bit what tools we build what bets we make as a society what rules we make i think I think that's going to be decided over the next like 10 years

[译文] [Chris]: 还有另一种可能，我想大概就像《钢铁侠》里的 Jarvis，那种感觉是：“好了，现在我会飞了，我能解决以前解决不了的问题了。”还是说我会变成那个漂浮在太空中的胖肉球？我认为这某种程度上取决于我们构建什么样的工具、作为社会下什么赌注、制定什么规则。我认为这将在未来 10 年内见分晓。

章节 3：红海突围——从“会议记录”到“思维工具”的降维打击

📝 本节摘要：

本章聚焦于 Granola 的诞生故事与差异化定位。面对市场上已有的 Otter、Fireflies 乃至 Zoom 等巨头，Matt 询问作为后来者如何突围。Chris 透露，他们的初衷并非制造另一个“会议记录仪”，而是构建一个“思维工具（tool for thought）”。他分享了离开 Google 后的顿悟：AI 需要上下文才能真正发挥作用。虽然“接管邮箱”太难，但“接管会议笔记”成为了绝佳的切入点。Chris 强调，Granola 的核心在于它是为“个人”而非“团队存档”设计的，这种对 Apple Notes 的智能化升级定位，使其在拥挤的赛道中开辟了新天地。

[原文] [Matt]: from an entrepreneurial journey uh perspective one of the parts of the granola story I find fascinating is that you guys were kind of late to market in in many ways the idea of an AI notepad is not new there were several companies doing that there were large companies like the Zooms of the world doing that so for the builders listening to this who may look at at a category uh and see a few companies and and and try to decide whether they should build in this category or ignore it and find a category which is less crowded how did you guys think about uh oh we can come up with something that's going to be better than all of them

[译文] [Matt]: 从创业旅程的角度来看，Granola 故事中让我着迷的一部分是，你们在很多方面都算是“迟到者”（late to market）。AI 记事本的想法并不新鲜，已经有几家公司在做了，甚至像 Zoom 这样的大公司也在做。所以，对于正在收听本节目的构建者来说，如果他们审视某个品类，看到已经有几家公司在做，正试图决定是进入这个品类，还是忽略它去寻找一个不那么拥挤的赛道，你们当时是怎么想的？比如，“噢，我们能做出比他们所有人都更好的东西”？

[原文] [Chris]: it's a great question so um I think the answer really just comes down to like what were we trying to build when we we set off to start Granola there have been like meeting transcription or recording products like Otter and Fireflies I think are like 9 years old right they've been around for for a long time like that's not a new idea um there are all these tools that like okay we can now record meetings right and and and try to make something useful there that's not at all where we started with Granola like that's not we don't think like a meeting recorder that's not what we're building we we want to build a tool for thought,

[译文] [Chris]: 这是一个很好的问题。我认为答案归根结底在于：当我们着手创办 Granola 时，我们到底想构建什么？市面上已经有像 Otter 和 Fireflies 这样的会议转录或录音产品，它们大概有 9 年历史了吧？它们已经存在很长时间了，所以那不是一个新点子。所有这些工具都在做“好吧，我们现在可以录制会议了，试着做点有用的东西”。但这完全不是我们做 Granola 的出发点。我们不认为自己在做一个会议记录器，那不是我们要构建的，我们要构建的是一个思维工具（tool for thought）。

[原文] [Chris]: like the the genesis of Granola was I uh I quit Google because Google bought my last startup so I quit Google knowing I wanted to do a new startup and I came across LLMs for the first time and they blew my mind and I was like this is going to change everything this is absolutely going to change the tools we use for work or productivity tooling and I met my co-founder who had come from a tools for thought knowledge management uh space and we basically said ah AI is going to let humans work differently think differently there needs to be a tool that supports that and that's what we want to build,

[译文] [Chris]: Granola 的起源是这样的：我离开了 Google——因为 Google 收购了我的上一家初创公司——我知道我想再次创业。我是第一次接触到大语言模型（LLMs），它们让我大受震撼。我当时就想，这将改变一切，绝对会改变我们用于工作的工具或生产力工具。然后我遇到了我的联合创始人，他来自“思维工具”和知识管理领域。我们基本上达成共识：AI 将让人类以不同的方式工作、不同的方式思考，必须有一种工具来支持这种变化，而这正是我们想要构建的。

[原文] [Chris]: so this idea of a contextually aware um uh workspace like AI powered workspace like that's what we wanted to build with granola and when and we said okay great Perfect we got the vision that's what we want to build where the heck do we start right and and that knows like okay kind of kind of imagine you can imagine an assistant that like knows everything about you uh is there where you're working gives you suggestions learns from you you know you can kind of imagine that but where do you start as two people you know building in in 2023

[译文] [Chris]: 所以，这种具备上下文感知能力的工作空间（contextually aware workspace），或者说 AI 驱动的工作空间，正是我们想通过 Granola 构建的。然后我们说：“好极了，完美，我们有了愿景，这就是我们要造的东西，但到底该从哪里开始呢？”你可以想象一个知道你一切信息的助手，它在你工作的地方给你建议，从你身上学习。你可以想象出那个画面，但在 2023 年，作为只有两个人的团队，你从哪里切入？

[原文] [Chris]: and we we realize that AI is only as helpful as the context it has about you so this is something I think we don't talk about enough even today in in 2025 like context is so important context design curation like that's a whole topic maybe we can talk about Matt but so it's like okay to be helpful to a user we need to have their context and as a tiny startup with you know like we need an entry point it kind of came down to email or meetings like those are are the two places where there was a lot of useful context uh that that we could access,

[译文] [Chris]: 我们意识到，AI 的效用取决于它拥有的关于你的上下文（context）。这是我觉得即便在 2025 年的今天我们讨论得还不够多的话题。上下文是如此重要——上下文设计、策划——这可能是一个完整的讨论话题，Matt。所以结论是：要对用户有用，我们需要掌握他们的上下文。作为一个微型初创公司，我们需要一个切入点。最后归结为邮件或会议，因为这是我们可以获取大量有用上下文的两个地方。

[原文] [Chris]: and then you put the product building hat on and you say getting someone to change their email client is hard right that's like a very very tall ask whereas taking notes in meetings honestly the biggest competitor that Granola had from day one and even today is Apple notes it's this idea of you know it's like I'm in a meeting I'm 5 minutes in you say something smart or that I need to remember then I'm like looking for a a pad or paper or something to write it down and and Apple Notes is the virtual version of that that like that's how we started with with with meetings

[译文] [Chris]: 然后你戴上产品构建者的帽子思考：让某人更换他们的电子邮件客户端很难，对吧？那是一个非常非常高的要求。而在会议中做笔记，老实说，Granola 从第一天起直到今天最大的竞争对手就是 Apple Notes（苹果备忘录）。这就好比我在开会，开了 5 分钟，你说了一些聪明话或者我需要记住的东西，我就开始找本子、纸或者什么东西记下来。而 Apple Notes 就是这一行为的虚拟版本。这就是我们从会议切入的原因。

[原文] [Chris]: we kind of begrudgingly entered the super saturated space but we really did we thought like we really did think about it as a very differently I think from the companies that were out there like we were thinking about ganola as a personal tool for you to help you do your work better and while there have been tons of muting recorders out there I you know I I' 'd posit that none of them feel like that like when you log into these they feel like a meeting repository like a here are recordings of meetings or just the fact that a meeting ends and it it emails generic notes to everybody that was in that meeting it's a completely different feeling than like here's this here's this tool for me that is optimized for me,

[译文] [Chris]: 我们算是有些不情愿地进入了这个极度饱和的市场。但我们确实是以一种非常不同的方式在思考，这与市面上的公司不同。我们将 Granola 构想为一种能够帮助你更好地工作的个人工具。虽然外面有成吨的会议录音机，但我敢说没有一个给人这种感觉。当你登录那些产品时，感觉就像是一个“会议仓库（meeting repository）”——这里是会议录音，或者是会议一结束就给所有参会者群发通用的笔记。这与“这是一个为我优化、专属于我的工具”完全是两种不同的感觉。

[原文] [Chris]: like I was to be perfectly honest I was surprised that we were able to break out uh in such a crowded space just like there's so much noise there's so much happening there's so many people doing things and Granola is by design very quiet it doesn't there's no like growth hacks in there so um that was that was a really pleasant surprise

[译文] [Chris]: 说实话，我很惊讶我们能够在一个如此拥挤的空间里突围。因为这里噪音太多，发生的事情太多，做这类产品的人也太多。而 Granola 在设计上是非常“安静”的，里面没有什么增长黑客手段。所以，那真的是一个令人愉快的惊喜。

章节 4：团队与阵地——应用层 AI 的人才观与“伦敦悖论”

📝 本节摘要：

本章探讨了 AI 应用层（Application Layer）公司的构建策略。Matt 询问在 LLM 时代，团队是否需要深厚的技术背景。Chris 指出，对于构建“套壳（wrapper）”类应用，初期并不需要顶尖的科研人员，产品感（Product Taste）与设计能力反而更关键，因为 MVP（最小可行性产品）主要依赖现有模型的API。

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随后，话题转向地理位置。尽管 Granola 被视为硅谷的“宠儿”，但团队却驻扎在伦敦。Chris 解释了这一“反直觉”的选择：伦敦拥有 DeepMind 和顶尖高校带来的深厚 AI 人才库，且远离硅谷的浮躁与“噪音（noise）”，有助于专注开发。但他同时也强调，Granola 在品牌形象上严格维持“美国公司”的人设，甚至会因为拼写问题而严格把关，确保完全契合美国市场的预期,,,,,。

[原文] [Matt]: amazing and you mentioned your your prior startup and your uh co-founder uh another very interesting part I find is that both of you guys are product people right i mean I think you have a computer science educational background but like you you is that fair to say like neither that's accurate yeah yeah

[译文] [Matt]: 太棒了。你提到了你之前的创业经历和你的联合创始人。我发现另一个非常有意思的点是，你们俩都是产品人（product people），对吧？我想你有计算机科学的教育背景，但能不能说你们……这准确吗？

[原文] [Chris]: my my my co-founder is a designer i'm a product person we can both code he can code much better than me but we're we're product and design yeah mhm

[译文] [Chris]: 是的，准确。我的联合创始人是设计师，我是产品人。我们都会写代码，他写得比我好得多，但我们的核心确实是产品和设计。

[原文] [Matt]: and um where I'm going with this is I'm I'm I'm uh curious what that means in terms of again for people builders listening to this what that means in terms of um what kind of team one needs to build an applied AI company these days a company running on top of of an LLM so what was your level of sort of technical comfort working with with LLMs and at at what point did you feel the need to start bringing people to do more technical stuff

[译文] [Matt]: 我之所以问这个，是因为我很好奇，对于正在收听的构建者来说，这意味着什么？如今要建立一家应用型 AI 公司——一家运行在 LLM 之上的公司——需要什么样的团队？你们在处理 LLM 时的技术舒适度如何？在什么阶段你们觉得需要引入更多做技术工作的人员？

[原文] [Chris]: i think the the main thing that's changed here is that um it used to be that you would need really strong technical chops just to build an MVP to understand if if you this is something people wanted or not and I think the reality now is that um that isn't the case you can you can usually figure out MVP or like is there a there there maybe even early product market fit potentially or signs there uh without a whole bunch of technical acumen

[译文] [Chris]: 我认为这里发生的主要变化是，过去你确实需要很强的技术功底（technical chops）才能构建出一个 MVP（最小可行性产品），以此来验证这是不是人们想要的东西。但我认为现在的现实并非如此。你通常可以在不需要大量技术敏锐度的情况下，就弄清楚 MVP，或者验证这里是否有实质价值（is there a there there），甚至可能找到早期的产品市场契合度（Product Market Fit）或相关迹象。

[原文] [Chris]: um if as long as you're building on top of the models like it's a completely different story obviously if you're building at the at the model uh layer but if you're building a a rapper a rapper company like like we are then it's like you can you can learn a lot and in those early phases like when I was looking for a co-founder I met Sam but I was also I met all the all the LLM experts from Imperial and Oxford and Cambridge because I thought that was DNA we would need on day one

[译文] [Chris]: 只要你是基于模型之上进行构建——当然，如果你是在构建模型层，那是完全不同的故事——但如果你是在构建一个“套壳公司（wrapper company）”，就像我们一样，那么你其实可以学到很多东西。在早期阶段，当我在寻找联合创始人时，我遇到了 Sam，但我也见了很多来自帝国理工、牛津和剑桥的 LLM 专家，因为我当时以为那是我们第一天就需要具备的基因（DNA）。

[原文] [Chris]: and as Sam and I started prototyping we realized actually there wouldn't be much for that person to do until we figure out product market fit until we maxed out on what like the the base model like the off-the-shelf models could do and then we would need that expertise and um and then we stopped looking for that person mhm

[译文] [Chris]: 但当 Sam 和我开始做原型时，我们意识到，在我们找到产品市场契合度之前，在我们彻底挖掘完基础模型——也就是那些现成的模型——的能力之前，那样的人（专家）其实没什么事可做。只有到了那个阶段，我们才需要那种专业知识。所以，我们就停止寻找那类人了。

[原文] [Matt]: and to the ICL um and generally London discussion that you mentioned it's also interesting and a little bit of a narrative violation if you will that uh you guys are building the company out of uh London in in in a world where like the default sort of zeitgeist uh thing that people repeat to one another is that you can only build great AI companies uh in Silicon Valley or San Francisco what what has that experience been uh for you i guess first of all why are you doing it i think I read somewhere it was for personal reasons personal reasons yeah and and and uh and then more importantly what has it been like

[译文] [Matt]: 既然提到了帝国理工以及整个伦敦的话题，这也很有趣，甚至可以说有点“反常规叙事（narrative violation）”：你们是在伦敦建立这家公司。而在当今世界，默认的时代精神（zeitgeist）或者人们口口相传的观点是，你只能在硅谷或旧金山建立伟大的 AI 公司。这种体验对你来说是怎样的？首先，你为什么这么做？我好像在哪读到过是因为个人原因？（Chris: 是的，个人原因。）然后更重要的是，这过程究竟感觉如何？

[原文] [Chris]: it's funny i um we were here we we're in London for personal reasons my wife's um my wife's English uh we moved here i knew I wanted to do a startup we chose London because there there's a there's amazing engineering talent here there's enough to there's enough of ecosystem here to really have a go at as a startup

[译文] [Chris]: 很有趣，我们在这儿——我们在伦敦确实是因为个人原因。我妻子是英国人，我们搬到了这里。我知道我想创业，我们选择伦敦是因为这里有惊人的工程人才，这里的生态系统足够让我们真正去尝试建立一家初创公司。

[原文] [Chris]: and then um when I decided I wanted to build an AI startup I said oh my god yes like deep minds here like a lot of like modern AI was like invented here uh some of the best programs like I said UCL uh Cambridge Oxford Imperial they have amazing AI programs and then and then I had the realization that actually you know product and design and and just general product taste and building is super important so we didn't need to hire those folks uh early on

[译文] [Chris]: 然后当我决定要建立一家 AI 初创公司时，我说：“天哪，太棒了。”DeepMind 就在这里，很多现代 AI 技术都是在这里发明的。正如我所说，像 UCL（伦敦大学学院）、剑桥、牛津、帝国理工，它们都有惊人的 AI 项目。但后来我意识到，实际上产品、设计以及整体的产品品味（product taste）和构建能力超级重要，所以我们早期并不需要招聘那些（纯学术方向的）人。

[原文] [Chris]: I think there trade-offs right i think there there are very real trade-offs there's like a center of gravity of talent in Silicon Valley i think we're in a very lucky position to be I'd say one of the the most um uh visible and desirable like AI like consumerf facing AI startups in London so for there's a for the continent of people over here like they they find us which is which is incredible

[译文] [Chris]: 我认为这是有权衡（trade-offs）的，非常真实的权衡。硅谷确实有人才的重心（center of gravity）。但我认为我们处于一个非常幸运的位置，可以说是伦敦最显眼、最令人向往的面向消费者的 AI 初创公司之一。所以对于这里（欧洲大陆）的人才来说，他们会找到我们，这真是太不可思议了。

[原文] [Chris]: and I think I think in an era of where taste matters and product sensibility matters there's the there's just amazing talent here for that um as well as amazing engineering talent from like all the big tech companies uh and there's a huge uh influx of Russian uh tech talent that's come into London so we're definitely not in the eye of the storm so to speak the which which I think is to be honest mostly negative

[译文] [Chris]: 而且我认为，在一个品味至关重要、产品感知力至关重要的时代，这里拥有这方面的惊人人才，也有来自各大科技公司的惊人工程人才。还有大量俄罗斯科技人才涌入伦敦。所以可以说，我们绝对不处于“风暴眼（eye of the storm）”中心，老实说，我认为处于风暴眼大多是负面的。

[原文] [Chris]: i think the the the upside is probably that it's a little quieter over here there's so much noise there's so much change there's so much thrash in AI like whenever I talk to AI founders especially second time founders they're like it's never been like this before like this is like founding is hard founding an AI right now is like emotionally draining energy drain it's like draining in every aspect because it's so fast and so and everything can change can pivot on a on a dime and I think being in London insulates that uh insulates us from that a little bit

[译文] [Chris]: 我认为（在伦敦的）好处可能在于这里稍微安静一些。AI 领域有太多的噪音，太多的变化，太多的折腾（thrash）。每当我和 AI 创始人聊天，尤其是连续创业者，他们都说：“以前从来没这样过。”创业本身就很难，但现在创办 AI 公司简直是情感枯竭、精力枯竭，方方面面都在消耗你，因为变化太快了，一切都在瞬间转向。我觉得身在伦敦能稍微将我们与那种环境隔绝开来（insulates us）。

[原文] [Matt]: what's particularly interesting is that you you're in London but you're a Silicon Valley darling product right typically the the trade-off is like yes we can build great companies outside of Silicon Valley but typically Silicon Valley ignores you and I think you probably maybe was lovable like the or synthesis you know one of the rare companies that has sort of broken through the consciousness so I guess that was extremely intentional right

[译文] [Matt]: 特别有趣的是，你们在伦敦，但你们却是一个“硅谷宠儿”级的产品。通常这种权衡是这样的：是的，我们可以在硅谷以外建立伟大的公司，但通常硅谷会忽略你。我认为你们大概是像 Lovable 或 Synthesia 那样，属于极少数能够突破这种认知壁垒的公司之一。所以我猜这是极其刻意的，对吧？

[原文] [Chris]: so we're we're we are the way I talk about internally we are an American company that happens to be in London right and um we built for Silicon Valley we built for the American market explicitly if I ever see any copy that has English spelling instead of American spelling that goes out I throw a hissy fit because I want everyone to think we're an American company

[译文] [Chris]: 是的，我在内部是这样描述的：我们是一家“碰巧在伦敦的美国公司”。我们专为硅谷打造，明确地为美国市场打造。如果我看到任何发出去的文案用了英式拼写而不是美式拼写，我会大发雷霆（throw a hissy fit），因为我要让所有人都认为我们是一家美国公司。

[原文] [Chris]: and um and that's what happened i also have to say like it really helped that helps that I built a my previous company in the US all our investors were like our main investors are based in America i had that network i had like basically it's like that DNA uh we've transplanted to London so it is Granola is a Silicon Valley DNA company that happens to be building in London and leveraging that as much as we can

[译文] [Chris]: 事情就是这样。我还必须说，这很有帮助——我在美国建立过我的上一家公司，我们所有的投资人，或者说主要的投资人都位于美国。我有那个网络，基本上就像是我们把那种 DNA 移植到了伦敦。所以 Granola 是一家拥有硅谷 DNA 的公司，只是碰巧在伦敦搞开发，并尽可能地利用这一点。

章节 5：隐身与爆发——打磨 MVP 与锁定“最难搞”的种子用户

📝 本节摘要：

本章揭秘了 Granola 的“冷启动”策略。Matt 询问为何在产品发布前保持了一年的隐身状态。Chris 解释道，隐身模式是为了“以最快速度学习”：在产品破碎的早期，公开只会招致大量重复的负面反馈，而私密测试能让他们快速迭代。他反驳了传统的“尽早发布”理论，认为在如今拥挤的 AI 市场中，第一印象至关重要，产品必须足够打磨才能脱颖而出。在寻找种子用户时，团队经历了从“身边朋友”到“VC（风险投资人）”再到“创始人”的演变。Chris 特别提到，选择创始人作为核心画像是因为他们需求最复杂、最挑剔——如果能满足创始人，就能满足所有人。

[原文] [Matt]: tell us about the beginning of the company so uh the product itself uh launched in May of 2024 I believe which is not that long ago at all uh given again the level of uh heat and and love for the for the product but I read somewhere that before that you were in stealth or in building mode for about a year so again for builders out there uh how did you think about when to launch when not to launch you know there's this constant tension between like building public you should be embarrassed by your first version otherwise it means you launch too late but on the other hand you only get one chance to make a first impression how do you think about this

[译文] [Matt]: 给我们讲讲公司的起步阶段吧。产品本身是在 2024 年 5 月发布的，考虑到现在产品的热度和受喜爱程度，这其实根本没多久。但我读到过，在此之前你们处于隐身模式（stealth mode）或构建模式大约有一年时间。所以，对于在场的构建者们，你们是如何考虑何时发布、何时不发布的？你知道，这里总是存在一种张力：一边是“公开构建（build in public）”，所谓如果你不对你的第一版产品感到尴尬，那就说明你发布得太晚了；但另一边是，你只有一次机会去建立第一印象。你是怎么看这个问题的？

[原文] [Chris]: two thoughts about this uh the first is um a simple way to answer this is what is the fastest way for me to learn so like presumably you start building something you have some prototype right uh you have some early version of the product and you say will I learn faster if I launch publicly or will I learn faster if I don't launch publicly

[译文] [Chris]: 关于这一点我有两个想法。首先，回答这个问题的一个简单方式是：对我来说，最快的学习方式是什么？ 假设你开始构建某样东西，你有了一个原型，或者说产品的早期版本，你会问：“如果我公开发布，我会学得更快吗？还是我不公开发布会学得更快？”

[原文] [Chris]: and the answer for us for about a year was we'd learn faster if we didn't launch publicly because we were onboarding users every day onto Granola and it was painfully obvious what was broken about it so launching publicly and getting you know 10,000 people telling us the exact same thing was actually going to slow us down rather than just fixing it based on what users were telling us

[译文] [Chris]: 对我们来说，在大约一年的时间里，答案是如果我们不公开发布，我们会学得更快。因为我们每天都在引导用户使用 Granola，而产品哪里有问题是显而易见的（painfully obvious）。所以，如果公开发布并让 10,000 个人告诉我们完全相同的问题，实际上反而会拖慢我们的速度，不如我们就根据现有用户的反馈去修复它。

[原文] [Chris]: um there's a there there many costs that come from launching publicly whereas like now you have users you can't ship things with bugs you can't you know you can't if you pivot it comes at a cost so um we basically spent a year onboarding people learning what was wrong about it making fixes to that onboarding a new set of people fixing it and and iterating

[译文] [Chris]: 公开发布会带来很多成本。比如，一旦你有了公开用户，你就不能发布带有 Bug 的东西，如果你要转型（pivot），也会付出代价。所以，我们基本上花了一年时间引导用户入驻，了解哪里有问题，进行修复，再引导一批新用户，再修复，不断迭代。

[原文] [Chris]: um and then basically the moment when we said ah like we now we now have something that works and we're going to learn a lot more by having lots of people use it and realize who who does it take off with right like maybe real estate people will will love it in a way or use it in a way that we didn't expect like that was the moment we we decided to launch publicly

[译文] [Chris]: 然后基本上到了某个时刻，我们说：“啊，现在我们有了一个行得通的东西，通过让很多人使用它，我们会学到更多，并意识到它会在哪些人群中起飞。”比如也许房地产行业的人会以一种我们没想到的方式喜爱它或使用它。那就是我们决定公开发布的时刻。

[原文] [Chris]: on the the general wisdom on this like MVP non MVP I think today there are so many products and companies coming out and vying for your attention that launching something more polished so that when people use it they're they're wowed by it by it is is a way to stand out

[译文] [Chris]: 关于那种“MVP 还是非 MVP”的普遍智慧，我认为在今天，有太多的产品和公司涌现出来争夺你的注意力，发布一个打磨得更完善（more polished）的东西，以便人们一使用就被它惊艳到（wowed by it），这是一种脱颖而出的方式。

[原文] [Chris]: uh so I I do think it's tension you shouldn't be tinkering in in your closet for 2 years and the world's moving very quickly but there's a lot of kind of there a lot of MVPs floating out there right so if you want people if you want to stand out in this really really um busy market I think you need to have something a little bit more polished

[译文] [Chris]: 所以我也认为这是一种张力。你不应该躲在衣柜里闭门造车两年，因为世界变化得很快。但是外面已经漂浮着太多的 MVP 了，对吧？所以如果你想让人们关注你，如果你想在这个非常非常拥挤的市场中脱颖而出，我认为你需要拿出一点更完善的东西。

[原文] [Matt]: again when you try to draw attention to it while you were in that building mode stay my stealth how did you find those first um users so you mentioned you're you're very deliberately an American company based in London were you also very deliberately a company targeting I hate the term but like for lack of a better term tech elite quote end of quote of a bunch of like top founders and VCs was that intentional or that that sort of happened

[译文] [Matt]: 再回到那时候，当你们还处于构建模式、保持半隐身状态时，你们是如何找到第一批用户的？你之前提到你们非常刻意地要把自己包装成一家总部在伦敦的美国公司，那你们是否也同样刻意地去针对——我讨厌这个词，但也没更好的词了——所谓的“科技精英（tech elite）”，比如一帮顶尖的创始人和风投（VCs）？这是有意的，还是顺其自然发生的？

[原文] [Chris]: yeah it it it well it's two stages one at first we built we were building for us right and then we were then the first users are kind of friends and family and extended network who were knowledge workers used computers did a lot of zoom calls um and that got us pretty far

[译文] [Chris]: 嗯，这分两个阶段。首先，我们要为自己构建，对吧？然后第一批用户基本上是朋友、家人以及扩展的人脉网络，他们是知识工作者，使用电脑，打很多 Zoom 电话。这让我们走了很长一段路。

[原文] [Chris]: and then there was this moment where users started telling us different things they're like oh this this is what's important this is what's important and we said okay we we know granola will be a general product a horizontal product lots of different types of people are going to use granola but we should just choose a user type on day one uh to make it really good for and then expand out

[译文] [Chris]: 然后到了一个时刻，用户开始告诉我们不同的事情，比如“噢，这个很重要”、“那个很重要”。我们说，好吧，我们知道 Granola 会是一个通用产品、横向产品，很多不同类型的人都会使用 Granola，但我们应该在第一天选择一种用户类型，把它做得对这群人真的很好，然后再向外扩展。

[原文] [Chris]: and there we kind of like looked around and we said okay we need a user type that has a lot of meetings relatively formula you know like lots of a similar type of meeting with relatively formulaic note uh style that they need that we have easy access to

[译文] [Chris]: 于是我们环顾四周，说：“好吧，我们需要一种用户类型，他们有很多会议，相对程式化——你知道，就是很多类似的会议，需要相对程式化的笔记风格——而且是我们容易接触到的人群。”

[原文] [Matt]: yeah exactly VCs right

[译文] [Matt]: 是的，完全就是 VC（风险投资人），对吧？

[原文] [Chris]: yeah so so we said okay and again let's build for VCs yeah and um and then and then as soon as we launched we said okay great now we're we're done with VCs no they're not going to be we're not going to focus on VCs we're going to focus on a different user type And we chose founders

[译文] [Chris]: 是的，所以我们说好，再次强调，让我们为 VC 构建。然后，一旦我们发布了，我们就说：“好了，太棒了，VC 这部分我们搞定了（或者说结束了）。”不，我们不再专注于 VC，我们要专注于另一种用户类型——我们选择了创始人（Founders）。

[原文] [Chris]: just because we thought they'd be the hardest like if you founders might have a sales call and then a user feedback call and then a an interview and and basically thought if we could build a good product for founders then we like a great product for founders would be by default a decent product for folks in these other roles and then we could make it better over time

[译文] [Chris]: 只是因为我们认为他们会是最难搞的（the hardest）。因为创始人可能刚结束一个销售电话，紧接着就是一个用户反馈电话，然后是一个面试。我们基本上认为，如果我们能为创始人打造一个好产品，那么一个对创始人来说“很棒”的产品，默认情况下对其他角色的人来说也会是一个“还不错”的产品，然后我们可以随着时间推移让它变得更好。

章节 6：产品哲学——拒绝“Bot”入侵与砍掉 50% 功能的极简主义

📝 本节摘要：

本章深入探讨了 Granola 的核心产品决策。Matt 指出 Granola 与其他竞品最大的不同在于它“隐身”——没有 AI Bot 加入会议，这在牺牲病毒式传播的同时保护了隐私。Chris 解释说，他们的初衷是做一个“为你服务的工具”而非“会议记录库”，因此必须在任何场景（包括线下）都能使用且不造成干扰。他强调“最小侵入性换取最大实用性”的原则，并透露他们为了保护隐私甚至决定不存储音频。

随后，话题转向“简单性”。Chris 透露在隐身模式结束前，他们痛下决心砍掉了 50% 的功能（包括各种复杂的视图），以防止产品变得臃肿。他认为，随着组织扩大，每个人都倾向于追求局部最优解，导致产品复杂化，而维护简单性是一项孤独但至关重要的工作。最后，Chris 讲述了他们如何通过高频的用户访谈（每周 4-6 次）来保持对用户真实需求的直觉，避免将用户“抽象化”。

[原文] [Matt]: all right so getting into the product itself uh and the general philosophy um of the how you you you designed the product so the the the key for thing which to me feels like the killer feature or at least a clear differentiator is that decision to that granola should be hidden uh or at least not apparent to other participants in the meeting in stark contrast with as you mentioned earlier bot first kind of noteakers where you're on a zoom call and then there's somebody else's uh you know insert company name um you know note takingaking bot

[译文] [Matt]: 好了，让我们深入探讨产品本身以及你设计产品时的总体哲学。对我来说，那个关键点，感觉像是杀手级功能（killer feature），或者至少是一个明显的差异化因素，就是决定 Granola 应该是隐藏的（hidden），或者至少对会议的其他参与者来说是不明显的。这与你之前提到的“Bot 优先（bot first）”类笔记工具形成了鲜明对比——在那些工具里，你在打 Zoom 电话，然后会有某个公司的笔记 Bot 突然出现。

[原文] [Matt]: and I mean clearly there's a little bit of um sort of sensitivity here around uh confidentiality privacy uh and to me it feels like in retrospect like a little bit of a certainly opinionated perhaps gutsy kind of product design decision curious about the genesis how you thought about it uh from a product standpoint but also from a you know almost societal uh standpoint

[译文] [Matt]: 显然，这涉及到保密性和隐私方面的敏感度。回过头来看，这感觉像是一个非常有主见（opinionated），甚至可能有点大胆（gutsy）的产品设计决策。我很好奇它的起源，你是怎么从产品角度，以及几乎是从社会角度来考虑这个问题的？

[原文] [Chris]: We always started from the we always started from the perspective of this is a tool for you what what will make for a great tool and there are a few characteristics that are really important so a tool needs to be consistent and reliable like if you pick up a pen and it only works half the time that's a terrible pen you're not going to use it right

[译文] [Chris]: 我们总是从这个角度出发：这是一个为你服务的工具。什么才能造就一个伟大的工具？有几个特征非常重要：工具必须是一致的且可靠的。就像如果你拿起一支笔，它只有一半的时间能写字，那就是一支糟糕的笔，你不会去用它，对吧？

[原文] [Chris]: and um in in the case of meetings there's this very real thing where some of your meetings or conversations might be on Zoom or meet or huddles or WhatsApp or or maybe not even on on on a VC it might just be in person so we started off from this like tool building perspective of like granola needs to be consistent and it needs to work across everything because we have this like 500 millisecond window when someone is in a meeting and decides they need to take a note like what tool do they open and again we're competing with Apple notes and Apple notes always works it doesn't care where you are what you're doing it always works so that's where we started

[译文] [Chris]: 在会议的场景下，有一个非常现实的情况：你的一些会议或对话可能是在 Zoom、Google Meet、Slack Huddles 或 WhatsApp 上进行的，甚至可能根本不是视频会议，而是面对面的。所以我们要从构建工具的角度出发：Granola 必须是一致的，必须在任何地方都能用。因为当某人在开会并决定需要记笔记时，我们只有大概 500 毫秒的窗口期，他们会打开什么工具？再次强调，我们在与 Apple Notes 竞争，而 Apple Notes 总是能用，它不在乎你在哪里、在做什么，它总是能工作。所以这就是我们的起点。

[原文] [Chris]: and then um from the adding a bump to the meeting perspective perspective well like technically just because we wanted to work everywhere that wasn't a good option but if you analyze that a little bit as a tool I I it bots make me make you feel kind of weird right just like a big black box on the screen it's like not a person sometimes they show up before you you join the meeting it's it's like a kind of this awkward thing beautiful thing from a growth distribution standpoint right like you get a user now they're exposing everybody they're meeting with to to your product so everyone thought we were kind of crazy not not to do that

[译文] [Chris]: 然后从“给会议增加阻碍/突兀感（adding a bump）”的角度来看——从技术上讲，因为我们想让它在任何地方都能用，Bot 并不是一个好选择。而且如果你稍微分析一下，作为一个工具，Bot 确实会让你感觉有点怪，对吧？就像屏幕上出现一个大黑框，它不是人，有时它们甚至在你加入会议之前就出现了，这真的很尴尬。当然，从增长分发（growth distribution）的角度来看，Bot 是一件美妙的事情：你获得一个用户，现在他们把与他们开会的所有人都暴露在你的产品面前。所以每个人都觉得我们要是不那样做简直是疯了。

[原文] [Chris]: um and then and then the way I think about um information capture and usefulness is is basically uh I'm sure that two years from now 3 years from now everyone's going to be using something like granola like I'm hoping it's granola but if it's not granola something like granola just because it is so useful and will get so much more useful over time and I think as a society we need to figure out like what are what are the right norms there and I think what you basically want is you want something that is um the least invasive for the maximum useful and that's like the the right tradeoff here

[译文] [Chris]: 然后我是这样思考信息捕获和实用性的：我确信两三年后，每个人都会使用像 Granola 这样的东西——我希望是 Granola，如果不是，也会是类似的东西，因为它太有用了，而且随着时间推移会变得更有用。我认为作为一个社会，我们需要弄清楚什么是正确的规范。我认为你基本上想要的是：以最小的侵入性换取最大的实用性（least invasive for the maximum useful）。这才是这里正确的权衡。

[原文] [Chris]: and when we designed granola we basically said okay cuz all all the other tools out there they record audio they record video they save that stuff at least when we started off that's how they the tools worked um and we said that's that again that doesn't feel right like like I don't I don't want to be recording I don't want to have video recordings of all my meetings that feels very invasive like what do I actually need like I actually need good notes right that most of the time I actually just need good notes

[译文] [Chris]: 当我们设计 Granola 时，我们看到市面上所有其他工具都在录音、录像并保存这些内容，至少在我们起步时它们是这样运作的。我们觉得这不对劲。我不想要被录音，我不想要我所有会议的视频录像，那感觉非常具有侵入性。我真正需要的是什么？我真正需要的是好的笔记，对吧？大多数时候我真的只需要好的笔记。

[原文] [Chris]: and so we made another decision early on which was even though we could store the audio and that would be useful we we we do not store the audio so we don't record the audio um which completely changes the way Granola feels i I think Granola feels more like a really smart enhanced notepad than like a like a meeting recorder

[译文] [Chris]: 所以我们早期做了另一个决定：即使我们可以存储音频且那会有用，我们也不存储音频，我们不录音。这彻底改变了 Granola 的感觉。我认为 Granola 感觉更像是一个非常聪明的增强型记事本，而不是一个会议记录器。

[原文] [Matt]: you store the transcript though and people can uh review the transcript and query the transcript very important

[译文] [Matt]: 不过你们存储了逐字稿（transcript），用户可以回顾和查询逐字稿，这很重要。

[原文] [Chris]: exactly we stored the transcript we actually were hoping to not even do that um or at least not make the transcript visible and I guess one of the one of the things we figured out and it's become a design principle for us is that in the world of AI where AI makes mistakes transcription makes mistakes it's really important that I don't have to trust I don't have to trust the LLM output i can kind of go back to the source and um and of course transcripts get stuff wrong all the time but it's like if I can see if I read the transcript I'm like "Oo that looks fishy." That's that's that's important as part of this uh of the experience

[译文] [Chris]: 没错，我们存储了逐字稿。实际上我们曾希望连这个都不做，或者至少不让逐字稿可见。但我们意识到的事情之一——后来成为了我们的设计原则——是在 AI 的世界里，AI 会犯错，转录也会犯错。非常重要的一点是：我不必非得信任 LLM 的输出，我可以回到源头查看。当然转录也会经常出错，但如果我能读逐字稿并发现“噢，这看起来有点可疑”，这是体验中非常重要的一部分。

[原文] [Matt]: yeah the user becomes the human in the loop effectively talk about simplicity so my personal experience with granola as a user is that um it's incredibly simple it's incredibly frictionless but as we all know simplicity from a product design perspective is very hard to do so I'm curious about how you think about it and perhaps what you decide to deliberately not include that would have ruined that simplicity feel

[译文] [Matt]: 是的，用户实际上成了“人机回圈（human in the loop）”的一环。谈谈简单性（simplicity）吧。作为用户，我对 Granola 的个人体验是它极其简单，极其无摩擦。但我们都知道，从产品设计角度来看，简单是非常难做到的。所以我很好奇你是怎么思考这个问题的，也许还有你们决定刻意不包含哪些东西，以免破坏那种简单感？

[原文] [Chris]: we had an event the other night and and we were reminiscing over beers about the versions of granola we built before we launched publicly and um basically what happens like we were in stealth for a year and uh as I said we were onboarding people every day learning about what was wrong and we kept adding things and adding features and adding views by the end there there was this version of granola where you could you could kind of swipe and there were all these panels and it's like here's your transcript here's your super long like here's your blowby-blow of exactly that happened at the meeting here are your notes here are your private notes here's your I don't know your your notes in another language it was like really like you know and you could see how you got there because we learned about all these pain points all these use cases

[译文] [Chris]: 前几天晚上我们有个活动，大家喝着啤酒，回忆我们公开发布前构建的那些 Granola 版本。基本上就像我说的，我们隐身了一年，每天都在引导用户入驻，了解问题所在，然后我们不断添加东西、添加功能、添加视图。到了最后，有那么一个版本的 Granola，你可以滑动屏幕，有各种各样的面板：这里是你的逐字稿，这里是你的超长流水账，这里是你的笔记，这里是你的私人笔记，这里是你另一种语言的笔记……真的就是那样。你可以理解我们是怎么走到那一步的，因为我们了解到了所有这些痛点和用例。

[原文] [Chris]: and then um what we did and I think this is probably probably one of the things I'm proudest of because it was hard is we we looked at it all and we cut out 50% of it we basically redesigned and cut out 50% and um and I think that would have been impossible or extremely hard to do if we had been publicly launched i think because if we had been publicly launched we had all these people had you know grown to love Granola and whatever weird shape it had been in and then we cut out half the functionality you just get you get so much hate it'd be tough

[译文] [Chris]: 然后我们做了一件事，这大概是我最自豪的事情之一，因为它很难：我们审视了所有这一切，然后砍掉了 50%。我们基本上重新设计并删减了 50% 的内容。我认为如果我们当时已经公开发布了，这是不可能或者极难做到的。因为如果你已经公开发布，那些用户可能已经习惯并爱上了 Granola 当时那种奇怪的形态，如果你砍掉一半功能，你会收到太多的恨意，那会很艰难。

[原文] [Chris]: but because we were still um pre-launch we only pissed off 150 people instead of instead of the number of people who use Granola now

[译文] [Chris]: 但因为我们当时还在发布前阶段，我们只惹恼了 150 个人，而不是现在使用 Granola 的那么多人。

[原文] [Chris]: um simplicity is really hard uh and it it's hard because organizationally um unless you're you know the the founder like you're solving a problem and you're in a a little universe and you're going to you're going to design for something that's going to optimize to solve the problem that you're fixing whatever that is right but you're not you don't have the full context of the product in mind you don't have the full context of the strategy and you end up with lots of different people going for whatever is a local maximum solution based on the worldview that they have which is the problem they're solving

[译文] [Chris]: 简单真的很简单。这很难是因为在组织层面，除非你是创始人——你知道，大家都在解决问题，每个人都在自己的小宇宙里，设计某种东西来优化解决他们正在修复的问题。但他们脑子里没有产品的完整上下文，没有战略的完整上下文。结果就是，你会看到很多人基于他们自己的世界观（即他们正在解决的问题）去追求各种各样的局部最优解（local maximum solution）。

[原文] [Chris]: and then you have to have this other layer which is looking at the product end to end um and saying sure there's very clear tangible value in having this feature and then there's this like very untangible hard to measure cost to launching it right and every on a one by one basis it always looks like you should launch the feature right but it's and then you look up and you have 10 buttons that are clogging up the app and then and the app no longer feels so magical and so zen

[译文] [Chris]: 然后你必须有另一层视角，从端到端审视产品，并说：“确实，拥有这个功能有非常明确的有形价值，但发布它也有某种非常无形的、难以衡量的成本，对吧？”如果逐个看，似乎你总是应该发布那个功能。但当你抬头看时，你会发现应用里塞满了 10 个按钮，应用不再感觉那么神奇、那么禅意（zen）了。

[原文] [Chris]: um and the real danger there is user requests like you know people always ask for the things they don't have people rarely say "Oh actually can you can you cut out half of the functionality of of the app?" Um even though when people when people talk about granola what they love about it is that it's simple so basically the only person the only people in the in the universe who are going to be pushing for simplicity are are are going to be the kind of like the design or product leaders in the org and it's kind of a lonely job right because you kind of make everyone angry or everyone's unhappy with you um but it's just such an important job

[译文] [Chris]: 这里真正的危险在于用户请求。你知道，人们总是要求他们没有的东西，很少有人会说：“噢，其实你能不能把这应用的哪怕一半功能给砍掉？”尽管当人们谈论 Granola 时，他们喜欢的正是它的简单。所以基本上，宇宙中唯一会推动简单性的人，就是组织里的设计或产品领导者。这是一份挺孤独的工作，对吧？因为你可能会让每个人都生气，或者每个人都对你不满，但这真的是一份如此重要的工作。

[原文] [Matt]: and to the tangible versus untangible point how do you decide effectively to play back some of what you just said the 50% that you need to cut are you looking for qualitative feedback or do you look at quantitatively uh what people actually do with a product uh which part is science art taste versus data measurement

[译文] [Matt]: 关于有形与无形这一点，你是如何有效决策的？回到你刚才说的砍掉 50%，你是看定性反馈，还是定量地看人们实际上用产品做了什么？这其中有多少是科学，多少是艺术品味，又有多少是数据测量？

[原文] [Chris]: yeah it it it's all of the above so our our general our philosophy that's gotten us here and it may not get us there as we scale is um uh we make most product and design intuition sorry uh decisions based on intuition like what what do we think makes sense it's kind of this vision of the product and that we're headed towards and um that like we just kind of make the decisions based on like does this feel right because it feel like it's in line with the vision

[译文] [Chris]: 是的，以上皆有。我们走到今天的总体哲学——随着规模扩大也许就不管用了——是我们主要基于直觉（intuition）来做产品和设计决策。比如，我们认为什么是有意义的？这关乎我们前进的产品愿景。我们做决定主要基于“这感觉对吗？它是否符合我们的愿景？”

[原文] [Chris]: and what we do to make sure we're not divorced from reality is think of us as like an LLM it's like we try to fill our context with as much real um user feedback user opinion as possible and some of that is quantitative of course everything we launch we measure and we look at the graphs and it was like people a lot of people were asking for this and not that many people use it it's like oh it must have been the loud minority um and you know that's a very important tool in the tool chest

[译文] [Chris]: 而为了确保我们不脱离现实，我们做的就是——把我们自己想象成一个 LLM。我们试图用尽可能多的真实用户反馈和观点来填满我们的“上下文（context）”。其中一部分当然是定量的，我们发布的每样东西都会测量，我们会看图表，发现“很多人要求这个功能，但没多少人真的在用”，那就说明这可能只是少数人大声嚷嚷的结果。那是工具箱里非常重要的工具。

[原文] [Chris]: but what what I think is even more important is constantly talking to people and that's something where it's like Sam and I and I'm talking about Sam and I because we work very closely together but uh like most of the team actually they they do regular user calls we we aim to do I think Sam and I aim to do four to six calls a week uh with with users but constantly not like oh we're we're doing a sprint on this feature it's actually we we try to book them every day always so that there's this constant context of uh

[译文] [Chris]: 但我认为更重要的是不断地与人交谈。Sam 和我——我提到 Sam 是因为我们合作非常紧密，但实际上团队大部分人都在做——我们会定期进行用户访谈。我想我和 Sam 的目标是每周做 4 到 6 个用户访谈。不是那种“噢，我们正在做这个功能的冲刺（sprint）所以才去聊”，而是我们试图每天都安排，始终保持这种接触，从而保持这种持续的上下文。

[原文] [Chris]: and and the thing is when you're building product it's so easy to abstract abstract away a human so so so easy it's like it's it's it's what our brains always push us to do and when you abstract away the user it becomes very easy to convince yourself that they're they want X or they're going to do of course if we make build this feature of course they're going to use it

[译文] [Chris]: 问题在于，当你构建产品时，把人类抽象化（abstract away a human）是太容易、太容易了。我们的大脑总是驱使我们这样做。当你把用户抽象化后，你就很容易说服自己他们想要 X，或者“当然，如果我们做了这个功能，他们当然会去用”。

[原文] [Chris]: and and I think it's only when you have constant contact with people and you're like "Oh yeah they're so busy they have all these other things to worry about they don't even know about what buttons are in granola or not." Like of course they're not even going to notice that it's like that kind of thing that's that's really important to do qualitatively

[译文] [Chris]: 我认为只有当你与人保持持续接触时，你才会意识到：“噢，对啊，他们太忙了，他们有那么多其他事情要操心，他们甚至根本不知道 Granola 里有哪些按钮。”比如他们当然根本不会注意到那个变化。这种定性的感知是非常重要的。

基于参考资料与对话历史，为您整理第七章的内容。

这一章揭示了 Granola 的长远战略与技术底座。Chris 提出了一个核心观点：目前的会议笔记功能只是一个“特洛伊木马”，旨在为未来构建更强大的“思维工具”积累上下文。同时，他详细拆解了技术栈策略——不绑定单一模型，而是灵活调用 OpenAI、Anthropic 和 Google 的最佳模型，并解释了为何在“长上下文（Context Window）”与“RAG（检索增强生成）”的技术路线之争中，坚定选择了成本更高但效果更好的前者。

章节 7：特洛伊木马与技术赌注——多模型策略与“长上下文”的胜利

📝 本节摘要：

本章深入探讨了 Granola 的技术战略与未来愿景。面对企业级需求与产品简单性的冲突，Chris 强调不能只为“今天的世界”优化。他透露，Granola 现有的笔记功能其实是一个“特洛伊木马（Trojan horse）”，真正的目的是收集用户上下文，以便未来通过 AI 深度分析数千场会议。

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在技术实现上，Chris 坚持“多模型策略”，灵活使用 OpenAI、Anthropic 和 Google 的最新模型，并通过后端抽象化处理，确保用户获得稳定的体验，而不必关心底层模型的变动。在处理海量会议数据时，Chris 解释了为何放弃 RAG（检索增强生成）而选择昂贵的全量上下文（Full Context）方案：因为对于“我哪里讲得不好？”这类复杂推理问题，只有通过长窗口全量分析才能得出高质量答案。他坚信这虽然昂贵，但随着推理成本下降，这是正确的长期赌注。

[原文] [Matt]: how do you um think about all of this going forward in a in a context where presumably you're getting pulled in different directions for one direction uh presumably is the fact that you've been very successful with the tech Silicon Valley crowd but then you're going to go into lots of different industries with people with different experiences different needs and perhaps different levels of expectation or comfort with technology and AI

[译文] [Matt]: 你是如何思考未来的？在这种背景下，你大概会被拉向不同的方向。一方面，你们在硅谷科技圈非常成功；但另一方面，你们将进入许多不同的行业，面对拥有不同经验、不同需求，以及对技术和 AI 有不同期望或舒适度的人群。

[原文] [Matt]: so on the one hand and then on the other hand uh you just launched granola teams couple of months ago uh and that pulls you into the world of like enterprise and so 2 and compliance and and all the things so I'm curious about how you think um about balancing all of this uh versus uh simplicity and then how you prioritize uh the road map uh you know with all that in mind

[译文] [Matt]: 所以一方面是这个问题，另一方面，你们几个月前刚刚发布了 Granola Teams（团队版），这把你们拉进了企业级的世界，涉及 SOC 2 合规性以及所有那些事情。所以我很好奇，考虑到所有这些，你是如何思考在这一切与“简单性”之间取得平衡的？又是如何通过这些考量来通过确定路线图优先级的？

[原文] [Chris]: it's absolutely true we're we're being pulled in in a million different directions and it's very challenging i think the overarching point that I have here is I think the failure mode is that we optimize for today's world so we optimize for today's product and today's world and today's needs and it's easy when you just talk to users and you get these requirements or you talk to enterprises you just kind of it's easy to make this assumption that's like oh yeah I'll come up with a plan assuming the world stays static and we are in one of the fastest moving um uh moments in tech history right now

[译文] [Chris]: 这绝对是真的，我们正被拉向一百万个不同的方向，这非常有挑战性。我认为这里的一个总体观点是：我认为失败模式（failure mode）在于我们只为“今天的世界”进行优化。如果我们只针对今天的产品、今天的世界和今天的需求进行优化——当你和用户或企业交谈并获取需求时，很容易做出这种假设，制定一个假定世界保持静止的计划。但我们正处于科技史上变化最快的时刻之一。

[原文] [Chris]: so I think the main failure mode for granola is not to invest enough in building for the world of tomorrow and and maybe you you can kind of infer some of this from what I said earlier about granola is not about meeting notes it's actually a tool for thought to help you do work like what we're very very excited about a world where people use granola not just to take notes but to do all kinds of work

[译文] [Chris]: 所以我认为 Granola 主要的失败模式将是未能对“为明天的世界构建”投入足够的资源。你也许可以从我之前所说的推断出一些东西：Granola 不仅仅是关于会议笔记，它实际上是一个帮助你工作的思维工具。我们要构建的世界是，人们使用 Granola 不仅仅是为了记笔记，而是为了做各种各样的工作。

[原文] [Chris]: um and in a in a in a way the product we have today is is a Trojan horse to collect a lot of your context so that you can then use all the information in that context to to do future work but that is that is hard because you have users or companies asking you for future X today right and we have to simultaneously invest in like oh we're doing a kind of a this really incredible like deep research mode across that can look at thousands of meetings in a matter of seconds and pull out these insights and you know that's that's not something that our enterprise customers are asking for right now because they're not even thinking to ask for that but I guarantee you that will be a huge part of of of the of where the world is going and and and where a lot of value of granola will will come from

[译文] [Chris]: 在某种程度上，我们要今天拥有的产品其实是一个特洛伊木马（Trojan horse），目的是收集你大量的上下文，以便你以后可以使用该上下文中的所有信息来处理未来的工作。但这很难，因为你有用户或公司今天就在向你索要功能 X。而我们必须同时投资于未来，比如我们正在做一种非常不可思议的“深度研究模式（deep research mode）”，它可以在几秒钟内查阅数千次会议并提取洞察。你知道，这不是我们企业客户现在要求的东西，因为他们甚至还没想到去要求这个。但我向你保证，这将是世界走向的重要组成部分，也将是 Granola 巨大价值的来源。

[原文] [Matt]: i'd love to uh spend a little bit of time now on how it all works behind the scenes the the tech stack the mechanics of it all so starting with the models so seen on the on the website and as a user um you use lots of different models so as a first question do you uh exclusively at this point use third party models so have you built some of your stuff from a pure AI perspective

[译文] [Matt]: 我现在想花点时间聊聊幕后的运作机制、技术栈以及这一切的原理。先从模型说起。我在网站上看到，作为用户也体验到，你们使用了很多不同的模型。所以第一个问题是，你们目前是完全使用第三方模型吗？还是说从纯 AI 角度自己构建了一些东西？

[原文] [Chris]: no we we're we our philosophy is to use the best model that is on the market as quickly as as possible there's so much uh value in focusing on the product like low hanging fruit when you focus on the user experience today and the base models are getting so much better and smarter so quickly like our strategy has been to use the latest and greatest and when we feel like we hit a wall and the only way to make the experience better is then to to fine-tune or train models and we we will do that

[译文] [Chris]: 不，我们的理念是尽快使用市场上最好的模型。专注于产品有巨大的价值，比如当专注于当今的用户体验时有很多唾手可得的成果（low hanging fruit）。而且基础模型正变得越来越好、越来越聪明，速度非常快。所以我们的策略一直是使用最新、最棒的模型。只有当我们感觉撞到了墙，并且让体验变得更好的唯一方法是微调或训练模型时，我们才会那样做。

[原文] [Chris]: um what we found is that there's so much alpha in like the improving models and making sure you get the most out of that that that's kept us busy thus far

[译文] [Chris]: 我们发现，在改进模型的使用以及确保充分利用它们方面，存在大量的超额收益（alpha），这目前已经让我们忙得不可开交了。

[原文] [Matt]: and so that multi world uh multiodel world that's open AAI anthropic Google uh is that right are there others open source uh any specific models that you currently use as I saw that you just um announced that you are yes supporting yeah yeah well I mean we we we use we basically test out and the all the models that come out and um anyone who spent a lot of time with models even users are getting really sophisticated you just learn their abilities it's like h it's like this model's like really good at writing these types of things this model's really good when you stick a ton of information in the context window it can pull out the right stuff

[译文] [Matt]: 这种多模型的世界，包括 OpenAI、Anthropic、Google，对吗？还有其他的吗，比如开源模型？你们目前使用什么特定模型？我看到你们刚宣布支持……（Chris: 是的。）

[原文] [Chris]: so we while we include all these models in granola we set the defaults as uh we set different default models for the specific thing you're trying to do in in the app

[译文] [Chris]: 我们基本上会测试所有发布的新模型。任何花大量时间研究模型的人，甚至包括用户，都变得非常精明。你会了解它们的能力，比如：“嗯，这个模型特别擅长写这类东西；那个模型当你把大量信息塞进上下文窗口时，特别擅长提取正确的内容。”虽然我们在 Granola 中包含了所有这些模型，但我们会根据你在应用中试图做的具体事情，设置不同的默认模型。

[原文] [Matt]: how do you think about um keeping a consistent user experience in a world precisely where those models uh one change evolve all the time two behave differently and three as we all know are stoastic not deterministic uh do you uh expect the users as you just said to like be be smart about it and that's sort of theirs to figure out or is that something that you abstract away for them

[译文] [Matt]: 既然这些模型一是在不断变化和进化，二是表现各异，三是我们都知道它们是随机的（stochastic）而非确定性的（deterministic），你是如何考虑保持一致的用户体验的？你是像刚才说的那样，期望用户自己变得聪明去搞定这些，还是说你们会为他们把这些抽象化（abstract away）处理掉？

[原文] [Chris]: we abstracted away from from people like the the general design at first we didn't for the longest time we didn't let users choose their model right and we only let users choose their model on chat on the note generation side we completely abstract it away and and the reason we do that is every time a new model comes out we have to completely change or tweak the prompts that we use for for note generation to provide consistency of experience and an improvement of experience

[译文] [Chris]: 我们对用户进行了抽象化处理。最初的总体设计，我们在很长一段时间里根本不让用户选择模型。即使现在，我们只允许用户在“聊天（Chat）”功能中选择模型。在“笔记生成”方面，我们完全将其抽象化了。原因在于，每当新模型发布时，我们必须彻底更改或微调用于笔记生成的提示词（prompts），以提供一致的体验并提升体验。

[原文] [Matt]: how do you um navigate the context window constraints uh if you have a a 1hour meeting that's a lot of information uh and uh I'm curious about you think about chunking sure so I mean a 1 hour meeting was a lot of information in in 2023 it's not a lot of information now compared to what the models can do they have um incredibly this the context window size increase over the last three years has just been mind-blowing and and fantastic for us

[译文] [Matt]: 你们是如何处理上下文窗口限制的？如果是一个 1 小时的会议，那信息量很大。我很好奇你们怎么考虑分块（chunking）处理？

[原文] [Chris]: yeah but call it a you know a board meeting which is uh four hours right and and there's like rate limits and all the things or maybe maybe it's no longer a problem at all maybe no no that's not a problem the problem becomes now well okay there are two things when notes aren't very notes are short transcripts are long single meeting is fine it's when you have lots of meetings and a large corpus information that that that's where this problem uh comes up a lot

[译文] [Chris]: 一个 1 小时的会议在 2023 年算是大量信息，但现在相比模型的能力来说已经不算多了。过去三年上下文窗口大小的增长简直令人难以置信，这对我们来说太棒了。（Matt: 是的，但如果是 4 小时的董事会会议呢？会有速率限制之类的吗？或者这不再是问题了？）不，那不是问题。问题在于当你有很多会议和巨大的语料库信息时，问题才会出现。

[原文] [Chris]: and the like the interesting the trade-off or the thing that's tricky here is that if if you care about information lookup right then then you can do rag you can do well either like some form of keyword search or cosign similarity what we found is that a lot of the most interesting queries that people have um like would completely fail with that type of method

[译文] [Chris]: 这里有趣且棘手的权衡是：如果你只关心“信息查找”，那么你可以做 RAG（检索增强生成），或者某种形式的关键词搜索或余弦相似度搜索。但我们发现，人们提出的许多最有趣的查询，用这种方法会完全失败。

[原文] [Chris]: so for example query might be like what are all the things um I didn't do a good job explaining um or or tell me what are all the bugs that this user encountered uh that you know in this user call um and the only way the only way you can you can get a good answer to that is if the model has the full context

[译文] [Chris]: 例如，查询可能是：“有哪些事情是我解释得不好的？”或者“告诉我这个用户在这次通话中遇到的所有 Bug”。要得到这种问题的优质答案，唯一的方法是让模型拥有完整的上下文（full context）。

[原文] [Chris]: um and so we and this is very costly but we we generally tend to put lots of context into the context windows um and we are on that side um and we have some some really cool stuff in the works where we look at full context across thousands of meetings which I've I've told you about but again it's it is costly with today's technology like there are trade-offs and the trade-offs are basically as far as we've seen it like like money or quality right and um and our our philosophy since the beginning of Granola is always to to build for the world a year from now because by the time we build it and it gets distribution um the costs of those models or those capabilities will will come down to a reasonable place

[译文] [Chris]: 虽然这非常昂贵，但我们通常倾向于将大量上下文放入上下文窗口中，我们站在这一边。我们正在开发一些很酷的东西，可以跨越数千次会议查看完整上下文。再说一次，以今天的技术来看这很昂贵。这里的权衡基本上就是金钱与质量（money or quality）。而 Granola 自创立以来的理念一直是为一年后的世界构建产品。因为等我们构建好并分发出去时，这些模型或能力的成本将会降到一个合理的水平。

章节 8：商业护城河与技术陷阱——毛利、声纹难题与“幻觉”的解药

📝 本节摘要：

本章聚焦于 AI 产品的经济模型与技术细节。Matt 询问了 AI 行业普遍存在的“负毛利”担忧（以 AI 编程工具为例）。Chris 澄清 Granola 并未陷入此困境，因为最大的成本来源——转录（Transcription）的价格正在显著下降，但他预测未来推理成本可能会随着查询复杂度的增加而上升。

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在技术栈方面，Chris 透露团队自研了设备端的“回声消除”以应对耳机插拔场景，但在转录上选择与 Deepgram 和 AssemblyAI 等顶级供应商合作。他坦言“说话人识别（Diarization）”在实时场景下仍处于“婴儿期”，错误的识别反而会误导模型，因此目前持谨慎态度。最后，关于 AI 幻觉与安全护栏，Chris 提出了“引用溯源”的设计哲学——既然无法保证模型 100% 正确，产品的核心在于让用户能点击查看原文（View Source），保持“人在回路”的判断力。

[原文] [Matt]: yeah and the the the cost question is um particularly interesting and timely these days uh because of the well reported um discussion around the cursor of the world or the coding tools having negative gross margins um is that is that a a situation where like directionally you guys are are are at where you for now operate on uh lower gross margins and I will not ask you for any specific numbers but again you're building for the world of tomorrow where you have higher gross margins um is that is that is that is the world of like meetings different in terms of like token needs uh versus AI coding

[译文] [Matt]: 是的，成本问题在最近特别有趣且合时宜，因为正如广泛报道的那样，围绕像 Cursor 这样的编程工具存在关于“负毛利（negative gross margins）”的讨论。你们现在的处境是这样吗？比如暂时在较低的毛利下运作——我不会问你具体的数字——但同样，你是为未来毛利更高的世界而构建。会议的世界在 Token 需求方面，与 AI 编程有什么不同吗？

[原文] [Chris]: so the most expensive thing about our business is actually transcription uh and historically it's been actually transcription and high quality transcription versus um LM inference and um the we basically use the best transcription real-time transcription on the market at any time um and the cost of transcription has has fallen dramatically uh over the last couple years and I suspect we'll continue to do so

[译文] [Chris]: 我们业务中最昂贵的部分实际上是转录（transcription）。从历史上看，实际上是高质量转录的成本高于大模型推理（LLM inference）的成本。我们基本上在任何时候都使用市场上最好的实时转录服务。而在过去几年里，转录的成本已经急剧下降，我预计这种趋势还会继续。

[原文] [Chris]: um so yeah we're we're we're not at a negative gross margins right now and but what I do expect is I expect the cost of inference to stay the same or go up as we allow users to do much more complicated queries over much larger data sets uh it'll be an interesting race to see like you know does does the cost of inference go down um faster than the user desire for more complicated more intelligent features goes up

[译文] [Chris]: 所以，是的，我们目前并没有处于负毛利状态。但我确实预期推理成本会保持不变甚至上升，因为我们将允许用户在更大的数据集上进行更复杂的查询。这将是一场有趣的竞赛：究竟是推理成本下降得更快，还是用户对更复杂、更智能功能的需求上升得更快？

[原文] [Matt]: talk about if you will the the parts around the model so you mentioned transcription uh obviously there is a big sort of audio part to what you do with uh you know there's a lot of problems in that world there's the problem of dorization which means uh figuring out you know this is Chris speaking or or Matt speaking uh and there is the problem of like noise cancellation like how what work have you guys done which vendors and solutions have you picked what have you learned

[译文] [Matt]: 如果可以的话，谈谈围绕模型的部分。你提到了转录，显然你们所做的工作中有很大一部分涉及音频。那个领域有很多问题，比如说话人识别（Diarization）——即分辨出这是 Chris 在说话还是 Matt 在说话；还有像降噪（noise cancellation）这样的问题。你们做了哪些工作？选择了哪些供应商和方案？学到了什么？

[原文] [Chris]: so let's see echo cancellation we we run ourselves um on on device and the it's just important because if if someone has headphones on and they take off the headphones halfway through the meeting that's you know it's important for that for that to work and it's something you built internally yeah on top of some open source frameworks

[译文] [Chris]: 让我看看。回声消除（echo cancellation）是我们自己在设备端运行的。这很重要，因为如果有人戴着耳机，然后在会议中途摘下耳机，系统必须还能正常工作。（Matt: 这是你们内部构建的？）是的，是在一些开源框架之上构建的。

[原文] [Chris]: and then we and then we built it um we've partnered with Deepgram Graham and assembly for transcription um they keep pumping out better and better models we're always using the latest and greatest

[译文] [Chris]: 至于转录，我们与 Deepgram 和 Assembly 建立了合作。他们不断推出越来越好的模型，我们总是使用最新、最好的。

[原文] [Chris]: um what else are we doing diization unfortunately real-time diorization is still in its infancy in terms of in terms of quality so that's something that we're keeping a very close eye on but um uh we haven't been able to get real-time dorization at a at a quality point where we're where uh we're happy with

[译文] [Chris]: 我们还在做什么？说话人识别（Diarization）。不幸的是，就质量而言，实时说话人识别仍处于婴儿期（infancy）。所以我们对此保持密切关注，但在实时识别方面，我们还没能达到让我们满意的质量水平。

[原文] [Chris]: um and and actually there's a danger with if you give models are really smart in ways you don't expect it if you give like an incorrect derization to a model it'll oftenimes confuse it more than if it just has to try to infer who's speaking so there's some some interesting like analysis and evals to to be done there

[译文] [Chris]: 实际上这存在一种危险。模型在某些方面聪明得超乎你想象。如果你给模型提供了错误的说话人识别信息，往往比让它自己去推断谁在说话更会让它感到困惑。所以这方面还有很多有趣的分析和评估工作要做。

[原文] [Matt]: how do you think about uh guard rails make sure that the system doesn't uh spit out um you know things it shouldn't for example i guess for every product the idea of like what should the system not what what what what would be harmful or negative for the system spit out a little bit different

[译文] [Matt]: 你是如何考虑护栏（guardrails）的？如何确保系统不会吐出它不该吐出的东西？我想对于每个产品来说，关于系统不该输出什么、什么是有害或负面的定义都略有不同。

[原文] [Chris]: i think if you go to um if you go to something like Google or ChatgPT and and you ask it for something it's like an open-ended place where you're you're looking for guidance or help or health advice or what have you there's some really really uh bad scenarios there um for our case it's it's it's a little bit different you're usually going back and asking questions over your your your meeting data

[译文] [Chris]: 我觉得如果你去用 Google 或 ChatGPT，你问它一些东西，那是一个开放式的场景，你在寻求指导、帮助或健康建议等等，那里确实存在一些非常糟糕的情况。而在我们的案例中，情况有点不同，你通常是针对你的会议数据回头提问。

[原文] [Chris]: so there there's a question of we get something wrong or it hallucinates um but what we found there is that the the best thing to do like you're never going to get it 100% right we can never be like oh you know we make no mistakes you know you just trust us

[译文] [Chris]: 所以确实存在我们搞错了或者模型产生幻觉（hallucinates）的问题。但我们发现，最好的做法是——你永远不可能做到 100% 正确，我们绝不能说“噢，你知道我们从不犯错，你就相信我们吧”。

[原文] [Chris]: um so obviously we do the best we can to avoid uh those mistakes but really what's important is the way you you design your product needs to let the user kind of like like view source kind of look behind the curtain and be like where like how did you construct this answer like where what are all the citation so we spent a lot of time thinking about citations about letting you uh view original transcripts and quotes and there's a lot more we want to do there but that's really been the the the way you solve for this at least so far

[译文] [Chris]: 显然我们会尽最大努力避免这些错误，但真正重要的是，你的产品设计需要让用户能够某种程度上“查看源代码（view source）”，看看幕后发生了什么，比如“你是如何构建这个答案的？”、“所有的引用在哪里？”。所以我们花了很多时间思考引用（citations），让你能查看原始逐字稿和引语。在这方面我们还有很多想做的事，但这确实是目前为止解决这个问题的途径。

章节 9：增长悖论与企业级噩梦——无 Bot 传播、恐怖故事与数据责任

📝 本节摘要：

本章探讨了 Granola 独特的增长策略及其在企业级应用中面临的隐私挑战。Matt 询问在没有 AI Bot 作为“广告牌”加入会议的情况下，Granola 如何实现病毒式传播。Chris 揭示了一个有趣的现象：Bot 的缺席反而引发了人们的好奇和讨论，口口相传成了主要动力，配合“链接分享”功能实现了用户裂变。

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随后，话题转向“团队第二大脑”的愿景，Chris 警告了过度透明的风险，并分享了一个令人毛骨悚然的案例：一位创始人因未关闭 Google Meet 录制功能，差点将解雇高管的敏感讨论群发给全公司。最后，双方讨论了企业级合规问题，特别是“法律责任足迹（Liability Footprint）”——IT/法务部门希望定期删除数据以降低风险，而 AI 愿景则希望保留数据以增强智能，这两者之间存在巨大的张力。

[原文] [Matt]: uh switching tax a little bit um away from the tech stack um I'd love to go into uh growth mechanics and what you've learned so you said um among the many interesting things you said earlier you said one on on that topic that caught my attention not having the bot experience was actually a trade-off in terms of like virality because you don't have the built-in um expos product exposure because there's no bot showing up uh so h what have you done to um uh sort of overcome that and what are the you know viral sort of growth mechanics built into the product today

[译文] [Matt]: 稍微换个话题（switching tacks），离开技术栈，我想探讨一下增长机制（growth mechanics）以及你学到了什么。在你之前说的许多有趣的事情中，有一点引起了我的注意：你说没有 Bot 的体验实际上是在病毒式传播方面的一种权衡（trade-off），因为你没有那种内置的产品曝光——因为没有 Bot 出现在会议中。那么，你们做了什么来克服这一点？如今产品中内置了哪些病毒式的增长机制？

[原文] [Chris]: we haven't focused on grow basically what we really focus on is making the product really good for people and turns out that that's actually uh led to a lot of viral growth but that viral growth is from people telling each other uh like so like an interesting story that this this I never imagined that this could have happened but I hear a lot now is um if you if you have a one like you know you're meeting with someone on a Zoom call and your AI bot shows up and you basically are told like hey what are you what are you doing with an AI bot like why aren't you on granola yet you know and it's like oh wow the AI bot is now like a conversation start

[译文] [Chris]: 我们基本上没有专注于增长。我们要真正专注的是让产品对人们非常有用，结果发现这实际上带来了大量的病毒式增长，但这种增长源于人们的口口相传。有一个有趣的故事，我从未想象过会发生这种事，但我现在经常听到：如果你在 Zoom 上和某人开会，你的 AI Bot 出现了，对方基本上会说：“嘿，你搞个 AI Bot 干什么？你怎么还没用 Granola？”这就像，哇，AI Bot 现在反而成了（谈论 Granola 的）对话启动器。

[原文] [Matt]: yeah it's the weird thing it's a conversation starter for a human to bring up granola and to vouch for it which is incredible but I never would have sat down and and imagined that that world

[译文] [Matt]: 是的，这是件怪事。它成了一个让真人提起 Granola 并为之担保的对话启动器，这太不可思议了，但我确实也没法坐下来凭空想象出那样的世界。

[原文] [Chris]: um so we always start from like a like a value standpoint like what is valuable to the users like oh we we could email your notes to everybody in the meeting like all the other companies do but again is that is is that a tool that you want to use is you know is that acting like a tool for you or is that acting like you know like a growth engine

[译文] [Chris]: 所以我们总是从价值的角度出发：什么对用户是有价值的？比如，我们可以像所有其他公司那样，把你的笔记通过邮件发给会议里的每个人，但这真的是你想用的工具吗？那种行为像是一个为你服务的工具，还是像一个增长引擎？

[原文] [Chris]: I what what we do have is um we do let people share granola notes basically you can share notes on a link and you can send that link to people and what's nice about that is that when you share share the the granola link the other person can chat with the transcript and ask questions so it's kind of like unlocking all the AI capabilities um but to to the person you're sending it to and we see a lot of link sharing there and then a lot of times people then say "Oh this thing seems interesting what's this?" And they go and they download Granola and they and they grow that way

[译文] [Chris]: 我们确实做的是，允许人们分享 Granola 笔记。基本上你可以通过链接分享笔记，把链接发给别人。这样做的好处是，当你分享 Granola 链接时，接收者可以与逐字稿聊天并提问。这就像是向接收者解锁了所有的 AI 能力。我们看到了大量的链接分享，很多时候人们会说：“噢，这东西看起来很有趣，这是什么？”然后他们去下载 Granola，我们就是这样增长的。

[原文] [Chris]: um the thing we're working on right now and it's still early days is if granola acts as a second brain for you like our goal the next step there is to be kind of a second brain for your team or or for your company and um this is how obviously at granola that we have that and it is pretty incredible what you can do when you have all that shared context that it does bring up a lot of questions again of like what kind of meetings what kind of context do I want shared with whom and and what kind of meetings or context do would not want shared because there are a lot of a lot of really dangerous uh failure modes here right

[译文] [Chris]: 我们目前正在研究的东西——虽然还处于早期阶段——是如果 Granola 充当你的第二大脑，那么我们的下一步目标就是成为你团队或公司的第二大脑。显然我们在 Granola 内部已经有了这个，当你拥有所有那些共享上下文（shared context）时，你能做的事情是相当惊人的。但这确实再次引发了很多问题：我想与谁共享什么样的会议、什么样的上下文？又有哪些会议或上下文是我不想共享的？因为这里有很多非常危险的故障模式（failure modes），对吧？

[原文] [Chris]: like it's very easy to sit down and be like "Oh you know what i want all my meetings shared all the meetings in the company should be shared right?" Because like wouldn't like transparency is a good thing and um and it's super valuable in the age of AI right like the more context the better and then you actually and then you and then you actually sit down and think about meetings or you hear these horror stories that go viral where it's like um you know like the the AI meeting notes were like captured like a a sensitive meeting uh on the wrong calendar invite and like emailed the whole company

[译文] [Chris]: 比如，你很容易坐下来说：“噢，你知道吗，我想共享我所有的会议，公司的所有会议都应该共享，对吧？”因为透明度是件好事，而且在 AI 时代这非常有价值，上下文越多越好。但当你真正坐下来思考会议，或者当你听到那些在网上疯传的恐怖故事（horror stories）时——比如 AI 会议笔记捕捉了一场在错误的日历邀请上的敏感会议，然后邮件发给了全公司。

[原文] [Chris]: or oh I was at a founder dinner the other day okay this is another this is a great story of how how we get customers um I I went to a founder dinner and he was like oh you're Chris from Granola my company we we just switched to granola and I was like oh great like what happened and he's like "Well I walked in on my co-founder and my CTO having a question a discussion about letting go of this key person and I noticed that I think it was like the Google Meet recorder was on and it was on uh the all hands which had happened just before in that meeting."

[译文] [Chris]: 或者，噢，前几天我在一个创始人晚宴上。这也是一个关于我们要如何获取客户的绝佳故事。我参加晚宴时，有个创始人说：“噢，你是 Granola 的 Chris，我们公司刚切换到 Granola。”我说：“噢，太棒了，发生了什么？”他说：“嗯，我当时走进房间，正好碰上我的联合创始人和 CTO 正在讨论解雇一位关键人员的问题。然后我注意到，好像是 Google Meet 的录制器开着，而且那是挂在刚才开完全员大会（All Hands）的那个会议链接上的。”

[原文] [Chris]: and and we had this awful realization that the moment we we hit end on the Google meet everybody in the company was going to get an email with our in-depth discussion of how we're going to let this person go and they and and they all freaked out and they all said "Okay like if the Wi-Fi cuts out we're screwed if the battery dies we're screwed." So this became like the the sacred computer and I think they had like 10 people trying to figure out and they were able to change they figured out there's like some like undocumented setting in the workspace admin like data control thing and they were able to turn it off

[译文] [Chris]: “然后我们产生了一个可怕的意识：只要我们在 Google Meet 上点击结束，公司里的每个人都会收到一封邮件，里面包含我们关于如何解雇这个人的深入讨论。”他们全都吓坏了，说：“好吧，如果 Wi-Fi 断了我们就完了，如果电池没电了我们就完了。”于是那台电脑成了“圣物（sacred computer）”。我想他们大概有 10 个人试图解决这个问题，最后他们发现 Workspace 管理员后台有个什么未记录的数据控制设置，终于把它关掉了。

[原文] [Chris]: but they like they turned it off and they ended the meeting and they just sat there for 5 minutes waiting to see if it was complete disaster but there's a lot like turns out like human relationships are complex and nuanced um and and if you have like a one-sizefits-all solution there are a lot of these cases that get kind of kind of ugly

[译文] [Chris]: 他们把它关了，结束了会议，然后就在那儿坐了 5 分钟，等着看是不是彻底的灾难。所以事实证明，人际关系是复杂且微妙的。如果你有一个一刀切（one-size-fits-all）的解决方案，会有很多这样的情况变得非常难看。

[原文] [Matt]: mhm as you get further into the enterprise uh do you get any kind of push back or questions about um what it means for every conversation to be recorded and for it to be a uh I mean quite literally like a a track record or of of of everything that was ever said from a I don't know legal perspective or any of those

[译文] [Matt]: 嗯，随着你们进一步进入企业级市场，你们有没有收到任何反推（push back）或质疑？关于每一次谈话都被记录下来，并且从法律或其他角度来看，这实际上变成了所有言论的“留痕（track record）”，这意味着什么？

[原文] [Chris]: yeah absolutely so I think I think there's two lines of of questions here one is um like it's important in in enterprise context that everyone knows that you're using granola right and we we are like we have functionality that post this in the chat uh right now you can turn this on and be like whenever you join a call like post in the chat let everyone know I'm using granola and we're going to launch a whole bunch of stuff that makes that better

[译文] [Chris]: 是的，绝对有。我认为这里有两条线的问题。一是，在企业环境中，让每个人都知道你在使用 Granola 非常重要，对吧？我们有这方面的功能，比如在聊天中发布通知。现在你可以开启这个功能，每当你加入通话时，就在聊天里发一条消息，让大家都知道我在用 Granola。我们还将发布一大堆功能来优化这一点。

[原文] [Chris]: but that that's like one line of questioning and like you should always tell people use granola it's like the right thing to do um regardless of what the laws of where you are you know I I think it's like we're also moving towards a world where like these tools if they're well-designed and not too invasive like it'll be normalized in certain types of contexts

[译文] [Chris]: 这是一类问题。你应该告诉别人你在用 Granola，这是正确的事。无论你所在地的法律如何，我认为如果这些工具设计得当且不过分侵入，我们正走向一个在特定语境下这将变得常态化的世界。

[原文] [Chris]: um then the other question is like and this is not just a question for granola but this is for AI in general which is like there's your liability footprint right like the more you want to at Google our emails were deleted after 2 years or 3 years right you literally couldn't go back and search and see why a certain decision was made on a product you know like why did we do this on Gmail 3 years ago you you you couldn't find that in in the email um and and that's to limit the the liability footprint

[译文] [Chris]: 然后另一个问题——这不仅是针对 Granola，而是针对整个 AI 领域——就是你的法律责任足迹（liability footprint）。比如在 Google，我们的邮件会在 2 年或 3 年后被删除，对吧？你真的无法回去搜索并查看某个产品决策是为什么做出的，比如“为什么我们 3 年前在 Gmail 上这么做？”你在邮件里找不到答案。那样做是为了限制法律责任足迹。

[原文] [Chris]: in a world of AI where all that stuff's actually really useful we think has the promise of being really useful in the future there's a lot of tension there especially when I talk to a lot of customers there's the biggest disconnect that I've seen from uh you know especially folks who are very like uh AI forward tech forward thinking about the future it's like how can everyone in the company uh uh leverage AI tools to become better faster smarter and then the IT team the legal team uh and and I don't know how that will get resolved uh I I I honestly don't I think it'll be a very interesting space to much so

[译文] [Chris]: 而在一个 AI 的世界里，所有这些东西实际上非常有用，我们认为它在未来有巨大的潜力。这里存在很大的张力（tension），特别是我和很多客户交谈时。我看到了最大的脱节：那些 AI 先行、技术先行的思考未来的人，他们在想“公司里的每个人如何利用 AI 工具变得更好、更快、更聪明？”；而另一边是 IT 团队和法务团队（想要限制数据）。我不知道这将如何解决，老实说我不知道。我认为这将是一个非常有趣的领域。

章节 10：终局与愿景——直面 OpenAI 的竞争与“AI 教练”的诞生

📝 本节摘要：

本章进入了最为敏感的竞争话题。Matt 抛出了“房间里的大象”：既然“记忆”如此重要，为什么 OpenAI 或 Google 不会直接吞并这个市场？Chris 将竞争对手分为“传统玩家（Zoom/Google）”和“原生玩家（OpenAI/Anthropic）”，并指出后者的威胁更大，但它们的弱点在于试图“满足所有人的所有需求”。Granola 的胜算在于为特定用户打造极致的“电动工具（power tools）”。

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在未来路线图方面，Chris 描绘了两个令人兴奋的功能：一是“深度研究模式”，即跨越数千次会议的历史数据进行复杂推理（如“根据过去两年的会议，谁最适合领投我们的 C 轮？”）；二是“动态工件（Dynamic Artifacts）”，即自动生成的、实时更新的 URL 报告。最后，Matt 畅想了 Granola 成为“职业教练”的未来，并感慨自己引以为傲的“英法双语实时笔记”技能被 AI 瞬间超越，这种既兴奋又恐惧的感觉为访谈画上了完美的句号。

[原文] [Matt]: all right so as we get towards the end of this conversation uh I'd be remiss not to ask the uh obvious question about the competitive landscape So we started the conversation talking about the existing note takers um the sort of elephant in the room kind of question that I'm sure you get all the time is uh why wouldn't OpenAI do that

[译文] [Matt]: 好了，随着对话接近尾声，如果不问那个显而易见的关于竞争格局的问题，那就是我的失职了。我们一开始聊到了现有的笔记工具，但我确信你经常被问到一个“房间里的大象（elephant in the room）”式的问题：为什么 OpenAI 不做这个？

[原文] [Matt]: uh and I'm a VC so that's a I'm a specialist of asking why Google wouldn't do that and why wouldn't open do that uh but um uh you know Zoom as a as a as a product um and it seems to be so fundamentally important what you what you're doing and so horizontal and so you know transformative that it feels like all those great companies should focus on this at one point or another how do you how do you think about navigating that tension

[译文] [Matt]: 我是个 VC，所以我专门负责问“为什么 Google 不做这个”和“为什么 OpenAI 不做这个”。但是，你知道 Zoom 作为一个产品……而且你们正在做的事情似乎如此根本重要、如此横向、如此具有变革性，感觉所有那些伟大的公司迟早都会关注这个领域。你是如何思考如何应对这种张力的？

[原文] [Chris]: yeah well I guess it was really helpful that um most of our competitors had some kind of AI note takingaking feature but when we launched so it all that was already the case and and somehow Granola was able to stand out and like win people's hearts and and and grow

[译文] [Chris]: 嗯，我想很有帮助的一点是，当我们发布时，我们的大多数竞争对手都已经有了某种 AI 笔记功能。所以那是既定事实，但不知何故，Granola 还是脱颖而出，赢得了人们的心并实现了增长。

[原文] [Chris]: i think again the failure mode here is to think about the world as it is today and the product capabilities as it is today and I I think my view is that um notes are are kind of useful i think they are a stepping stone to the way we're going to work in the future and the way we're going to work in the future is with AI that has really deep personal context about you

[译文] [Chris]: 我再次认为，这里的失败模式在于只考虑当今的世界和当今的产品能力。我的观点是，笔记是有用的，但它们只是通向我们未来工作方式的一块垫脚石（stepping stone）。我们未来的工作方式，将是与通过 AI 协作，而这个 AI 对你拥有非常深度的个人上下文。

[原文] [Chris]: and the product experience that is that Granola will be a year from now two years from now will look radically different from what it is today hopefully it'll still be very simple but it it'll it'll help you do a a lot of work and I think um no one no one's built that yet like a lot of people are racing towards that and I and I and AI is an incredibly competitive space but when we're talking about really uh when you're talking about products that are like native to a new medium right often times uh startups have have an advantage

[译文] [Chris]: Granola 一两年后的产品体验将与今天截然不同。希望它仍然保持极简，但它将帮助你完成大量工作。我认为目前还没有人构建出那样的东西。很多人都在朝着那个方向赛跑，AI 确实是一个竞争极其激烈的领域。但当我们谈论原生于新媒介（native to a new medium）的产品时，通常初创公司会拥有优势。

[原文] [Matt]: but ju just to just to press a little bit I'm I'm mostly thinking about uh OpenAI because uh I do think of uh Granola and like you don't need another person to tell you that like you're the you're the one building it but like I do think of Granola as uh you know building memory for the world and for for all of us and um so uh that is incredibly strategic for OpenAI or or Google because that's the ultimate price right like you're building as as you said like second brain so how do you think about those players

[译文] [Matt]: 但我想再追问一下，我主要想的是 OpenAI。因为我确实认为 Granola——虽然不需要别人来告诉你，毕竟你在造它——但我确实认为 Granola 是在为世界、为我们所有人构建“记忆”。这对 OpenAI 或 Google 来说具有极高的战略意义，因为那是终极奖赏（ultimate prize），对吧？就像你说的，你在构建“第二大脑”。所以你是怎么看这几家选手的？

[原文] [Chris]: yeah I I would put Google and Open AI in in different buckets i I would put So I like I think a lot more about Open AI and anthropic than any of the the legacy players because I think they are native they are AI native they're they've led the way in in this space to me it all come and again I I don't have a crystal ball i don't know what the future's going to look like but OpenAI is gonna try to do everything to everyone really and they do an amazing job at it it's really really incredible

[译文] [Chris]: 是的，我会把 Google 和 OpenAI 放在不同的篮子里。相比那些传统玩家（legacy players），我更关注 OpenAI 和 Anthropic，因为它们是原生的，是 AI 原生的，它们在这个领域处于领跑地位。对我来说——再一次，我没有水晶球，我不知道未来会怎样——但 OpenAI 会试图满足所有人的所有需求（do everything to everyone），而且他们做得非常出色，真的很不可思议。

[原文] [Chris]: and I think the question is can we do something way better for a specific use case and a specific type of user and I think there are it's hard to visualize that world right there's a world where like oh actually you know it's not that specific the upside is not that great or or actually you know what power tools for this like spec these specific workflows and just nailing them because you care more matters a lot

[译文] [Chris]: 我认为问题在于，我们能否针对特定的用例和特定的用户类型，把某件事做得好得多（way better）？很难想象那个世界会怎样。可能有一种情况是，那个特定领域其实没那么特别，上限也没那么高；或者另一种情况是，针对特定工作流的“电动工具（power tools）”——仅仅因为你更在乎，就把它们做到了极致——这其实非常重要。

[原文] [Matt]: a little bit on that note uh to to close and and and and zoom out anything that you can talk about in terms of the road map or the future so you mentioned a couple of times the idea of um searching through the history of of meetings so that's one thing maybe double click on that and or anything else that uh you can talk about

[译文] [Matt]: 顺着这个话题，作为结尾并把视角拉远一点，关于路线图或未来，你有什么可以透露的吗？你几次提到了搜索会议历史的想法，也许可以深入讲讲那个？或者还有什么其他能聊的？

[原文] [Chris]: yeah absolutely so I I think the the world we're moving towards is um you have a bucket of context and then you you generate documents um or artifacts on on a per needed basis on the fly and things the types of things that we're working on are uh given my entire history of meetings can you pull out really so for example a good qu question um you could ask could be um that we could ask would be like okay out of everyone we've met in the last two years like who are the firms who are most likely uh candidates to lead our series C right that's a a question that I can't ask anywhere else in the world right now but I have a version of Granola that will go through my 2,500 meetings and spit out an remarkably intelligent answer to that in 20 seconds it's like a deep research mode right

[译文] [Chris]: 当然。我认为我们正走向这样一个世界：你拥有一桶上下文，然后你根据需要即时（on the fly）生成文档或工件（artifacts）。我们正在研究的东西是：给定我所有的会议历史，你能不能从中提取出……比如一个很好的问题是：“好吧，在过去两年我们见过的人中，哪些公司最有可能领投我们的 C 轮融资？”这是我现在在世界上其他任何地方都无法提问的问题。但我有一个版本的 Granola，它可以遍历我的 2,500 场会议，并在 20 秒内给出一个极其智能的答案。这就像是一种深度研究模式（deep research mode）。

[原文] [Chris]: um the other thing that we've played around with is like if you're if you're dynamically generating artifacts or or UIs on the fly can those be shared right so this idea of we have a a folder where all our sales calls um get put into and they're shared within the company and then we have this artifact that you go to the URL it doesn't have to be in the Granola app and it'll tell you here are the most important things our um enterprise customers are telling us like today and every time you reload it it's up to date but it's like a it's it's like a memo

[译文] [Chris]: 我们在尝试的另一件事是，如果你能即时动态生成工件或 UI，那么这些能被分享吗？比如我们有一个文件夹，所有的销售通话都放进去，并在公司内部共享。然后我们有这样一个工件（artifact），你访问一个 URL——不一定非要在 Granola App 里——它会告诉你：“今天我们的企业客户告诉我们的最重要的事情是这些。”而且每次你刷新它，它都是最新的。这就像是一份实时备忘录。

[原文] [Matt]: and I don't know if that's part of the road map or whether you can do this to some extent in the product uh today but like for for me clearly uh where this could be going and where as a user I'd be like I would find that absolutely fascinating is um granola as a coach uh where you know based on um you know everything I do all day it could be Matt you need to ask better questions those are the three questions you never ask you need to ask or you know you spend a lot of your time on stuff that doesn't really move the needle

[译文] [Matt]: 我不知道这是否在路线图中，或者今天的产品是否能在一定程度上做到这一点，但对我来说，显而易见的未来方向——作为一个用户我会觉得绝对迷人的——是 Granola 作为一名教练（Granola as a coach）。基于我整天做的一切，它可能会说：“Matt，你需要问出更好的问题。这是你从没问过但需要问的三个问题。”或者“你知道吗，你在那些并不能真正推动进展（move the needle）的事情上花了太多时间。”

[原文] [Chris]: Yeah and look I'm not I'm not very qualified because I never had one but I think the entire coaching industry right of like people that you spend uh you know one hour a week and you talk about how you use your time uh and what issues you encounter at work where you could where you do well where you don't do so well and you have this kind of um you know uh sit down session a little bit like you would get with psychiatrist or therapist of of of some sort uh if Granola just knows everything I say in all meetings uh after a certain time I think Granola is gonna have a very good idea of uh where you know I succeed and where I could get better stay tuned

[译文] [Chris]: 是的。你看，我不太有资格评论，因为我从来没请过教练。但我认为整个教练行业——那种你每周花一小时和他谈论你如何使用时间、工作中遇到什么问题、哪里做得好、哪里做得不好的行业——如果 Granola 知道我在所有会议中说的每一句话，经过一段时间后，我认为 Granola 会对我哪里成功、哪里可以改进有一个非常好的了解。敬请期待（Stay tuned）。

[原文] [Matt]: exciting uh very uh very good well uh it's been a fantastic conversation again um you know I'll I'll I'll end uh where I started which is I'm a huge fan of the product and it was life-changing for me i have to to say as well at a personal level level you know when we talk about um feeling how AI is both enhancing us but also sort of disrupting us in my early use of granola there was still um it was still just English uh and uh you guys I think recently or at least I saw it recently introduced a multil- language uh feature

[译文] [Matt]: 令人兴奋，非常好。这是一场精彩的对话。我要以我开始的地方作为结束：我是这个产品的超级粉丝，它改变了我的生活。但我必须从个人层面说一说，当我们谈论 AI 既在增强我们，又在某种程度上颠覆我们时——在我早期使用 Granola 时，它还只支持英语。而你们最近，我想是最近，推出了多语言功能。

[原文] [Matt]: and um as a European you know French-born person who has spent most of his life in the US at this stage my secret uh kind of a little trick ability that I had was always to listen to a conversation in French and take notes in English directly in real time and I was very proud of that and it took me you know a lifetime to achieve the level of fluency I'm able to do it and then one day that feature appeared on Granola and I was there you go like the machine does something much better than took me you know a couple of decades to figure out so um I don't know if that's exciting or terrifying probably a combination of both

[译文] [Matt]: 作为一名在法国出生的欧洲人，目前这辈子大部分时间都在美国度过。我一直有个秘密绝技（secret little trick ability），就是听法语对话，然后直接实时用英语记笔记。我对此非常自豪，我花了一辈子的时间才达到这种流畅度。然后有一天，这个功能出现在了 Granola 上。我心想：“好吧，这就没了。”机器做得比我好得多，而那可是我花了几十年才练成的。所以我不知道这是令人兴奋还是令人恐惧，可能两者兼而有之吧。

[原文] [Chris]: i guess the the hope is you make uh the hope is you make better investments now post granola you know that I think that's the ultimate question right absolutely you know hence the the the coaching part um yeah no look very excited for uh what you've built and for the future of the company thank you so much for spending time with us uh plenty of uh uh lessons for builders around product and growth and uh building on top of AI so really appreciate it thank you thank you so much Matt

[译文] [Chris]: 我猜希望在于，有了 Granola 之后，你能做出更好的投资决策。（Matt: 绝对的，所以才需要“教练”部分嘛。）是的。非常为你构建的产品和公司的未来感到兴奋。非常感谢你花时间与我们在一起，为构建者们提供了大量关于产品、增长以及在 AI 之上构建应用的经验教训。真的很感激。谢谢你，Matt。

章节 11：尾声——播客结语与订阅呼吁

📝 本节摘要：

访谈正文结束后，主持人 Matt Turck 再次独自发声，为本期节目画上句号。他感谢听众的陪伴，并诚恳地请求大家订阅频道、撰写好评或发表评论。Matt 强调，这些来自听众的互动数据对于节目长期发展以及持续邀请高质量嘉宾（如 Chris 这样的创始人）至关重要。

[原文] [Matt - Outro]: hi it's Matt Turk again thanks for listening to this episode of the Mad Podcast if you enjoyed it we'd be very grateful if you would consider subscribing if you haven't already or leaving a positive review or comment on whichever platform you're watching this or listening to this episode from

[译文] [Matt - 结语]: 嗨，我是 Matt Turck，再次感谢收听本期 MAD Podcast。如果你喜欢这期节目，且尚未订阅，如果你能考虑订阅，或者在你观看或收听本期节目的任何平台上留下好评或评论，我们将不胜感激。

[原文] [Matt - Outro]: this really helps us build a podcast and get great guests thanks and see you at the next episode

[译文] [Matt - 结语]: 这真的能帮助我们建设播客并邀请到很棒的嘉宾。谢谢，下期节目见。

【整理工作完成】

至此，本期关于 Granola CEO Chris Pedregal 的访谈内容已全部整理为11个章节的精读文档。如您需要对特定章节进行合并、导出或进行深度术语分析，请随时告知。