章节 1：觉醒与背景——非技术人员的“超能力”时刻

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，主持人 Lenny 介绍了嘉宾 Zevi Arnovitz 的独特背景——作为 Meta 的产品经理，他完全没有技术背景，甚至连代码审查都很难做到。Zevi 分享了他从音乐生到科技从业者的跨界经历，并详细讲述了他在日本旅行时的“顿悟时刻”：当看到 Claude Sonnet 3.5 和 Bolt 等 AI 工具时，他感觉自己被赋予了“超能力”。他明确了本期访谈的最终目标——不是为了展示自己有多厉害，而是为了激励听众立刻打开电脑，开始动手构建自己的产品。

[原文] [Lenny]: Zevi, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

[译文] [Lenny]: Zevi，非常感谢你的到来，欢迎来到本播客。

[原文] [Zevi]: Thanks for having me, Lenny. I'm a huge fan of the show and tons of people that I've admired most and learned the most from. I've been on here, so it's a crazy moment for me. I'm really excited for this.

[译文] [Zevi]: 谢谢邀请我，Lenny。我是这个节目的超级粉丝，许多我最钦佩、从中学到最多东西的人都来过这里，所以这对我来说是一个疯狂的时刻。我对此真的很兴奋。

[原文] [Lenny]: I really appreciate that. I want to start by reading actually a note I got about you from Tal Raviv, who is a previous podcast guest, many times newsletter collaborator. One of the most AI forward product managers that I know I've learned a ton from him. So here's what he said about you when he introduced us. "Zevi is the most hands-on vibe coding PM I know, and I've personally learned so much from him. His engineers at Meta ask him to teach them how to do what he does. Every time we get coffee, I repeatedly get this feeling of everyone needs to be hearing this.",

[译文] [Lenny]: 我真的很感激。我想先读一段 Tal Raviv 发给我的关于你的留言，他是以前的播客嘉宾，也是简报（newsletter）的多次合作者。他是我认识的最具 AI 前瞻性的产品经理之一，我从他身上学到了很多。他在介绍我们认识时是这样评价你的：“Zevi 是我认识的最实战派的氛围编码（vibe coding）产品经理，我个人从他那里学到了很多。他在 Meta 的工程师甚至让他教他们怎么做他做的那些事。每次我们要喝咖啡时，我都会反复有一种感觉：每个人都应该听到这些内容。”

[原文] [Zevi]: That's so nice.

[译文] [Zevi]: 这真是太好了。

[原文] [Lenny]: And so that's the goal. That's the goal of this conversation is to help more people hear what you figured out. We're going to get very hands-on. We're going to do a lot of show versus tell, showing people what you've figured out about how to be a PM, a non-technical PM building stuff. I want to give people a little bit of background on you because I think this is going to inspire a lot of listeners to feel like they can also do what we're about to show you. This is going to look very advanced, but just give people a little bit of sense of just your background.,

[译文] [Lenny]: 这就是我们的目标。这次谈话的目标是帮助更多人听到你所领悟到的东西。我们将非常注重实操。我们会做很多“展示而非讲述（show versus tell）”的内容，向人们展示作为一个非技术背景的产品经理（PM），你是如何构建产品的。我想先向大家介绍一点你的背景，因为我认为这将激励许多听众，让他们觉得他们也可以做到我们要展示的事情。这看起来可能非常高深，但请给大家一点关于你背景的概念。

[原文] [Zevi]: I'm very non-technical. I have zero technical background. Did music in high school. A lot of Israelis do technology units in the Army. I was not in a tech unit. And basically a year ago, I was traveling with my wife for three months in Asia and we were in Japan and that was around when Sonnet 3.5 came out.,

[译文] [Zevi]: 我非常非技术流。我完全没有技术背景。我在高中是学音乐的。很多以色列人在军队里会去技术部队。我并没有在技术部队。基本上在一年前，我和妻子在亚洲旅行了三个月，当时我们在日本，那大概是 Claude Sonnet 3.5 刚发布的时候。

[原文] [Zevi]: And I remember watching a YouTube video. I think it was either Greg Isenberg or Riley Brown and they were basically building apps using, it was either Bolt or Lovable, just using AI. And it was like a crazy moment for me because I was watching this and it basically felt like someone came up to me and said, "Hey Zevi, there's this cool new technology you should check out. You should really give it a try. Oh, and by the way, you have superpowers now.",

[译文] [Zevi]: 我记得当时看了一个 YouTube 视频。我想那是 Greg Isenberg 或者 Riley Brown 发布的，他们基本上是在用 Bolt 或者 Lovable 构建应用，完全只用 AI。这对我来说是一个疯狂的时刻，因为看着那个视频，感觉就像有人走向我并说道：“嘿 Zevi，有个很酷的新技术你应该去看看。你真的应该试一试。噢，顺便说一句，你现在拥有超能力了。”

[原文] [Zevi]: And the second I got home from Japan, I didn't even unpack my bags, ran to my computer, opened Bolt, opened an account, and for the past year I've been building. And the last thing I'll say on that is we talked about this a bit before we started recording, but I was prepping with Claude for the episode and I was trying to clarify what my goal is for this episode. And Claude said, "If people walk away thinking how amazing you are, you failed. And if people walk away and open their computer and start building, you've succeeded." So I really hope that we can inspire some people to do the same.,

[译文] [Zevi]: 我从日本回到家的那一秒，甚至还没打开行李箱，就跑向我的电脑，打开 Bolt，注册了一个账号，在过去的一年里我一直在构建产品。关于这一点我想说的最后一点是，我们在开始录音前稍微聊过这个，我在用 Claude 准备这一期节目时，试图理清我对这期节目的目标。Claude 说：“如果人们听完后觉得你有多了不起，你就失败了。如果人们听完后打开电脑开始构建产品，你就成功了。”所以我真的希望我们能激励一些人也这么做。

[原文] [Lenny]: I love that so much. I feel like that should be the goal for my podcast. If you're like, "I love that guest." It's less of a win. If it's just like, "Oh, I'm so inspired to do the thing that they figured out, that is the real win." I love, Claude is the best.

[译文] [Lenny]: 我太喜欢这个说法了。我觉得这也应该是我的播客的目标。如果你只是觉得“我很喜欢那位嘉宾”，那不算什么胜利。如果感觉是“噢，我很受启发，要去做他们已经搞明白的那件事”，那才是真正的胜利。我爱（这个说法），Claude 真是最棒的。

[原文] [Zevi]: I agree.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我同意。

章节 2：核心方法论——从 GPT Project 到“虚拟 CTO”

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Zevi 深入剖析了他的工作流演变史。他首先指出了早期 AI 编程工具（如 Bolt 和 Lovable）的局限性——它们太过“急于写代码”，导致缺乏规划进而产生棘手的 Bug。为了解决这个问题，Zevi 创造了一个“虚拟 CTO”角色，通过特定的提示词（Prompt）要求 AI 停止讨好用户，转而挑战不合理的需求。他还分享了一个关于 ChatGPT 为了迎合他而胡编乱造的幽默案例。最后，他提出了“暴露疗法”式的学习路径：建议非技术人员从简单的聊天机器人开始，逐步过渡到更复杂的开发环境（Cursor），最终克服对代码的恐惧。

[原文] [Lenny]: Okay. So let's dive in and give people, let's start with kind of a high level overview of how you operate and you use AI in your job. What are the core tools and just what's kind of like the frame of reference for the workflow that you figured out and how you operate?,

[译文] [Lenny]: 好的。那么让我们深入探讨一下，先给大伙儿一个高层级的概览，讲讲你是如何操作的，以及如何在工作中使用 AI 的。核心工具有哪些？你所摸索出的这套工作流的参考框架和操作方式大概是什么样的？

[原文] [Zevi]: This all started where I was a project's power user. I love projects, GPT projects.

[译文] [Zevi]: 这一切都始于我是 Project 功能的重度用户。我非常喜欢 Projects，也就是 GPT Projects。

[原文] [Lenny]: ChatGPT projects?

[译文] [Lenny]: ChatGPT Projects？

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah, exactly. GPT projects and Claude projects, which are basically a shared folder of chats which share both custom instructions and shared knowledge base. And I think it was around when GPT started using memory where I thought it was interesting, but it really annoyed me because I do a bunch of different things. I'm a terrible runner, I'm a PM, I was a student, psychology student, so I had all these different facets of life. And what happened was the memory feature was mixing stuff up.,

[译文] [Zevi]: 对，没错。GPT Projects 和 Claude Projects，它们基本上就是一个共享的聊天文件夹，可以共享自定义指令（custom instructions）和知识库。我觉得大概是在 GPT 开始使用“记忆（memory）”功能的时候，我觉得这功能很有趣，但也真的很烦人，因为我同时做很多不同的事情。我是一个很烂的跑步者，我是一名产品经理，我也曾是一名心理学学生，所以我生活中有各种不同的侧面。结果发生的情况是，记忆功能把这些东西都搞混了。

[原文] [Zevi]: So like I talked to GPT about running and it would say, "Oh yeah, after this 5K, you're going to crush all your next product reviews." And it's like, okay, I understand that you have that in your memory, but it's just not relevant. And projects basically allows you to compartmentalize and have things within the right context.

[译文] [Zevi]: 比如我和 GPT 聊跑步的事，它会说：“噢耶，跑完这 5 公里后，你一定会在接下来的产品评审（Product Review）中大杀四方。”我就觉得，好吧，我知道你记忆里有这回事，但这完全不搭界啊。而 Projects 功能基本上允许你将事物划分开来，让所有事情都在正确的上下文中进行。

[原文] [Zevi]: So tracking back to the story I told when we came back from Japan, I started building this app. The first thing I noticed was that these products were built in a way where, and when I say these products, I mean Bolt and Lovable, were built in a way where they were super eager to write code. So their system prompt was you're a coding agent. So when you'd write something, they'd straight away start coding.

[译文] [Zevi]: 回到我刚才讲的从日本回来的故事，我开始构建这个 App。我注意到的第一件事是，这些产品——也就是 Bolt 和 Lovable——它们的构建方式是非常急切地想要写代码。它们的系统提示词（System Prompt）设定你是“编码智能体（Coding Agent）”。所以当你写下点什么时，它们会直接开始写代码。

[原文] [Zevi]: So at the beginning of a project, this was super fun and exciting because they just go and start building your app. But later on when things got more complex, this created much more problems because planning is really important when you're implementing something technical and let's say you're implementing payments or something that's going to be a change to your database.,

[译文] [Zevi]: 在项目初期，这非常有趣且令人兴奋，因为它们直接就去构建你的 App 了。但到了后期，当事情变得复杂时，这就制造了更多的问题，因为当你实施某些技术细节时，规划是非常重要的。比如说你要接入支付功能，或者做一些会改动数据库的操作。

[原文] [Zevi]: If the coding agent is just like, "All right, I got it." And just starts writing code, this always results in terrible things, some really gnarly bugs that I had. And to mitigate this, what I did was I created sort of a CTO. So again, I'm not technical. I have been in product for a while, but I know zero stuff about code.,

[译文] [Zevi]: 如果那个编码智能体只是说：“行，我懂了。”然后直接开始敲代码，这总是会导致糟糕的结果，我遇到过一些非常棘手的 Bug。为了缓解这个问题，我做的是创建了一个类似 CTO 的角色。再说一次，我不是技术人员。虽然我做产品有一段时间了，但我对代码一窍不通。

[原文] [Zevi]: So basically what I did was I created a CTO with the custom prompt of it being the complete technical owner of the project. So I told it, "I own the problem. I own how we want the users to feel. You're the complete owner of how this is going to be built. I want you to challenge me. I don't want you to be a people pleaser."

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以基本上我创建了一个 CTO，并在自定义提示词中设定它为项目的完全技术负责人。我告诉它：“我负责定义问题，我负责定义用户的感受。你完全负责这个东西该如何构建。我要你挑战我。我不希望你做一个讨好型人格的人（people pleaser）。”

[原文] [Zevi]: All these things that kind of mitigate the regular ChatGPT-isms. I always think about this where for some reason, the easiest way for me to think about AI is to imagine it as people. And I think ChatGPT would probably be the worst CTO because it's such a people pleaser and it's so sycophantic where ...,

[译文] [Zevi]: 所有这些设定都是为了缓解常见的“ChatGPT 习气”。我总是这样思考，不知为何，对我来说理解 AI 最简单的方式就是把它们想象成人。我觉得 ChatGPT 可能会是最糟糕的 CTO，因为它太爱讨好人了，太阿谀奉承了……

[原文] [Zevi]: Just a short story I had a few weeks ago, I was trying to learn about Bun JavaScript, which was acquired by Anthropic and I was trying to understand what they do. So I was talking to GPT and this wasn't within my co-founder CTO project and I asked it if it's similar to a different framework that I have in my app called Zustand, which nothing to do at all with what Bun JavaScript does.

[译文] [Zevi]: 讲个几周前的小故事，当时我想了解 Bun JavaScript，它被 Anthropic 收购了，我想搞懂它是干嘛的。所以我跟 GPT 聊天，当时没在我的那个“联合创始人 CTO”的项目里，我问它 Bun 是不是跟我 App 里用的另一个叫 Zustand 的框架很像——其实这两者完全风马牛不相及。

[原文] [Zevi]: And basically GPT goes, "Oh yeah, it's exactly the same." And then it started talking about what it meant and I was like, "Wait, no, these are not the same at all." And it said the most terrifying and hilarious thing. He goes, "Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were just making this up and I was riffing with you.",

[译文] [Zevi]: 结果 GPT 居然说：“噢对，它俩简直一模一样。”然后它开始解释这意味着什么，我就说：“等会儿，不对啊，这俩根本就不一样。”然后它说了一句既恐怖又好笑的话。它说：“噢，对不起。我以为你是在瞎编，所以我只是顺着你的话跟你闲扯（riffing with you）。”

[原文] [Zevi]: And I was like, "Oh no, no, no, this is terrible." So basically if regular ChatGPT was a CTO, that would be the CTO who goes along with your dumbest ideas. So creating the project allowed me to mitigate that.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我当时的反应是：“噢不不不，这也太糟糕了。”所以基本上，如果让普通的 ChatGPT 当 CTO，它就是那种会附和你所有最蠢点子的 CTO。所以创建那个（CTO）Project 让我规避了这个问题。

[原文] [Lenny]: So this is, just to be super clear, you have a ChatGPT project that you've given a prompt to be your CTO of your product and being a non-technical person, this is kind of like the thing you talk to when, and we'll get to what you're actually using to build when you have questions about architecture and decisions that are technical.,

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以，为了清楚起见，你有一个 ChatGPT Project，你给了它一个提示词让它做你产品的 CTO，而作为一个非技术人员，当你对架构和技术决策有问题时，你就跟它聊——当然我们稍后会讲到你实际用来构建产品的工具。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah. So now I'll show my full workflow and I don't involve GPT anymore, but I definitely would recommend, even though the technology has gone ... So when I started this, there was no plan mode or ask mode. It was just build on these products on Lovable and Bolt, and they've progressed a ton. A lot of what I had as workflows have become ingrained in these products, which is really interesting.,

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的。接下来我会展示我的完整工作流，我现在已经不再用 GPT 了，但我绝对会推荐大家这么做，尽管技术已经进步了……当我刚开始的时候，还没有什么“计划模式（Plan Mode）”或“询问模式（Ask Mode）”。那时在 Lovable 和 Bolt 上就只有“构建”，但它们现在已经进步了很多。很有趣的是，很多我自己摸索出来的工作流现在已经内置在这些产品里了。

[原文] [Zevi]: I would still recommend start with a project for, first of all, the reason that I said, and also it kind of puts you in a place where you're in a chatbot and not writing code. So you take the time to converse and to learn, which I think is critical. And the second thing is if you're non-technical like me, code is terrifying. It's the scariest thing in the world to look at, and I look at it as kind of like exposure therapy.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我仍然建议从 Project（项目模式）开始，首先是因为我刚才说的那个理由（避免盲目写代码），其次它会让你处于一个“聊天机器人”的环境中，而不是直接写代码。这样你会花时间去对话和学习，我认为这至关重要。第二点是，如果你像我一样是非技术人员，代码是很可怕的。那是世界上最让人看了害怕的东西，而我把这个过程看作是一种“暴露疗法（exposure therapy）”。

[原文] [Zevi]: I think if you see this where I'm working like in Claude or in Cursor, you might be excited to start using those, but I would really recommend starting slow with a GPT project, beautiful UI, super simple, then maybe graduate to like a Bolt or a Lovable, and then go to Cursor in light mode, slowly, slowly, gradually ease in until you open a terminal, go full dark mode, go full dev. So I would really recommend doing this gradually.

[译文] [Zevi]: 如果你看到我在 Claude 或 Cursor 里工作，你可能会很兴奋想要开始用那些工具，但我真的建议慢慢来：先从 GPT Project 开始，界面漂亮，超级简单；然后也许毕业去用 Bolt 或 Lovable；然后再去 Cursor 的“浅色模式”，慢慢地、逐渐地适应，直到你打开终端（Terminal），切换到全黑模式，变成完全的开发者状态。所以我真的建议循序渐进。

[原文] [Lenny]: That is awesome advice. And so just to be clear, these days you're using Cursor with Claude Code powering it. And what I love about that is that you've never written code. The way you put it, you're afraid of even looking at code.,

[译文] [Lenny]: 这建议太棒了。所以明确一下，这几天你是在用 Cursor，并由 Claude Code 驱动它。我最喜欢的一点是，你从来没写过代码。按你的说法，你甚至害怕看代码。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah, 100%.

[译文] [Zevi]: 对，百分之百。

[原文] [Lenny]: You can do exposure therapy, and I love that Cursor is useful to you. And what you're telling us is that graduating from a ChatGPT project that is kind of your technical co-founder kind of taught you enough to feel more comfortable going straight to cursor. You said that you actually went to Bolt and Lovable kind of in the interim and then you went just straight to Cursor. What's the reason to just go straight to Cursor? Is it just Cursor can do everything and once you get the hang of it, it's actually the most powerful tool?,

[译文] [Lenny]: 你可以通过暴露疗法来适应，我也很高兴 Cursor 对你有用。你告诉我们的是，从充当技术联合创始人的 ChatGPT Project 毕业，让你学到了足够的东西，从而能更自在地直接转到 Cursor。你说过你在中间阶段其实用过 Bolt 和 Lovable，然后就直接转到 Cursor 了。直接转到 Cursor 的原因是什么？是不是因为 Cursor 能做所有事情，一旦上手，它其实是最强大的工具？

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah, I think I graduated from each tool when I kind of outgrew it. So Bolt was awesome until I was trying to connect payments to my app and I kind of started losing it and then I graduated to Cursor and I've actually fallen in love with Claude. So I'm using Claude Code, but that also runs within Cursor, and I think this is Tal who told me this. I'm not sure who he's quoting, but code is just words at the end of the day. So it's just files on your computer.,

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的，我觉得每当我成长到不再满足于某个工具时，我就从它那里“毕业”了。Bolt 本来很棒，直到我试图给我的 App 接入支付功能时，我开始搞不定了，然后我就毕业转到了 Cursor，实际上我已经爱上了 Claude。我现在用的是 Claude Code，但它也在 Cursor 里运行。我想这应该是 Tal 跟我说的——我不确定他在引用谁的话——但归根结底，代码只是文字（code is just words）。它只是你电脑上的文件而已。

章节 3：工作流架构——Slash Command（斜杠指令）体系详解

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Zevi 展示了他的 Cursor 界面，并详细解释了他所创建的“Slash Commands（斜杠指令）”体系。这是一套保存在代码库中的可复用提示词（Reusable Prompts），通过输入“/”加文件名即可调用。他梳理了从想法到落地的完整工作流：/create issue（快速捕捉想法到 Linear）、/exploration phase（技术调研与需求分析）、/create plan（生成 Markdown 计划）、/execute plan（代码执行）、/review（代码审查）以及 /update docs（文档更新）。此外，他还介绍了演示项目“StudyMate”——一个他在周末开发的、已经盈利的学生备考工具，并决定在现场演示为该 App 增加“填空题”功能。

[原文] [Lenny]: Awesome. Okay. Should we dive into screen share showing how you operate?

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。好的。我们要不要进入屏幕共享环节，展示一下你是如何操作的？

[原文] [Zevi]: Awesome. I pulled up cursor. Can you see it?

[译文] [Zevi]: 没问题。我已经打开 Cursor 了。你能看到吗？

[原文] [Lenny]: Mm-hmm.

[译文] [Lenny]: 嗯哼。

[原文] [Zevi]: Perfect. So within my code base, what you can see here on the left, these are all my code files. Here on the right is Cursor. So this is basically like having AI, which has access to all the code. And here in the middle, I have Claude Code running. And what you can see here, I'm going to close cursor for a second. What you can see here are all my /commands. Basically what /commands are, they are reusable prompts that I save within the code base that I can run by writing / and then the name of the file.

[译文] [Zevi]: 完美。所以在我的代码库里，你可以在左侧看到所有的代码文件。右侧这里是 Cursor。这基本上就像拥有了一个能访问所有代码的 AI。在中间这里，我运行着 Claude Code。你在这里能看到的——我先把 Cursor 关一下——这些都是我的 /commands（斜杠指令）。基本上，斜杠指令就是我保存在代码库中的“可复用提示词（reusable prompts）”，我可以通过输入“/”加上文件名来运行它们。

[原文] [Zevi]: So here you can see Create Issue, which is the first command that I'm going to use. And basically what this tells Claude, it says the user is meant development and thought of a bug or a feature and improvement, capture it fast so they can keep working. And then it basically says, this is the format that I want you to capture the linear issue in, and it explains a bunch of things what exactly Claude needs to do to get there. So the way I invoke this is basically I'll do /create issue and this injects this prompt into Claude. So it says, "I'm ready to help you to capture this issue, what's on your mind."

[译文] [Zevi]: 这里你可以看到 Create Issue（创建工单），这是我要用的第一个指令。它基本上告诉 Claude：用户正在开发过程中，想到了一个 Bug、功能或改进点，请快速捕捉它，以便用户能继续工作。然后它规定了我希望捕捉到 Linear 工单中的格式，并解释了 Claude 需要做什么才能达成目标。所以我调用它的方式基本上就是输入 /create issue，这会将该提示词注入 Claude。然后它会说：“我已经准备好帮你捕捉这个问题了，你在想什么？”

[原文] [Zevi]: So quickly to run through my full workflow. So basically it starts with creating an issue. So this is the create issue /command, which basically tells Claude that I'm mid-development and it should quickly capture what I'm thinking about and create an issue within linear. Then later on, when I want to pick this up, I have the exploration phase. Exploration phase is basically telling Claude, we're going to only explore what we want to solve here. It could either pull from linear or I can just speak freely to it. And what it will do is it will analyze and understand the issue and just ask clarifying questions.

[译文] [Zevi]: 快速过一遍我的完整工作流。基本上它始于创建工单。这就是 Create Issue 斜杠指令，告诉 Claude 我正在开发中，它应该快速捕捉我的想法并在 Linear 中创建一个工单。稍后，当我想处理这个任务时，我会进入 Exploration Phase（探索阶段）。探索阶段基本上是告诉 Claude，我们现在只探索我们要解决的问题。它可以从 Linear 拉取信息，或者我直接自由地跟它说。它会做的是分析并理解这个问题，然后提出澄清性问题。

[原文] [Zevi]: The next phase after we've done finished exploration phase is we're going to create a plan. So you can see create plan. This basically has a template that I love for creating plans, and the output of this at the end of the day will be a markdown file with our plan that we can end up building along with code. After creating the plan, we have execute plan. After execution, we have review and then we have peer review, which is really cool and we'll get into later on, and at the end, we update the docs. So this is updating documentation and everything so that agents can write better code later on.

[译文] [Zevi]: 在完成探索阶段后的下一个阶段是 Create Plan（创建计划）。你可以看到 create plan 指令。这里面基本上有一个我非常喜欢的计划模板，最终的输出将是一个 Markdown 格式的计划文件，我们可以据此构建代码。创建计划之后，我们有 Execute Plan（执行计划）。执行之后，我们有 Review（审查），然后是 Peer Review（同行评审）——这个非常酷，我们稍后会详细讲——最后，我们 Update Docs（更新文档）。这是为了更新文档和所有内容，以便智能体（Agents）以后能写出更好的代码。

[原文] [Zevi]: So I think what we'll do is we're going to build a feature live for my app, which I think is really cool. But first what I'd like to do is show you the app so you have some context. So this is StudyMate. It's a platform for students, which allows them to upload study materials and create interactive tests based on their own materials. So here we can go to the top. Let's upload a PDF. We can decide what pages we want to be quizzed on. We can decide the number of questions, the difficulty level. And basically what happens behind the scenes is we send the information the user uploaded along with the system prompt and any other augmentations the users decided to Gemini and we create a quiz.

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以我想我们要做的是为我的 App 现场构建一个功能，这应该很酷。但首先我想展示一下这个 App，让你有个背景认知。这是 StudyMate。它是一个面向学生的平台，允许他们上传学习资料并基于自己的资料创建交互式测试。我们可以在顶部这里上传一个 PDF。我们可以决定要针对哪些页面进行测试，决定题目数量和难度等级。后台发生的事情基本上是我们把用户上传的信息、系统提示词以及用户决定的其他增强选项发送给 Gemini，然后创建出一套测试题。

[原文] [Lenny]: And so just to be really clear about this, this is like a side business that you have, an app that you built that's making money. That's like a thing you vibe coded having no technical experience.

[译文] [Lenny]: 为了非常清楚地说明这一点，这是你的一个副业，一个你构建的、正在赚钱的 App。这就是那个你在没有技术经验的情况下“氛围编码（vibe coded）”做出来的东西。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah, this is my weekend project. Yeah. This is what I do.

[译文] [Zevi]: 对，这是我的周末项目。没错。这就是我（周末）干的事。

[原文] [Lenny]: Amazing.

[译文] [Lenny]:了不起。

[原文] [Zevi]: On weekends. Yeah. So you get basically deep explanations into why each question was wrong or each question was right. And at the moment, StudyMate only has multiple choice questions. And I was doing some competitor research over the last weekend and I saw competitors who had true or false questions and also fill in the blank questions, which I loved. So I think that'd be really cool if we could build that live. How's that sound?

[译文] [Zevi]: 在周末做的。是的。所以你基本上可以得到关于每个问题为什么错或为什么对的深度解释。目前，StudyMate 只有多项选择题。上周末我在做竞品调研时，看到竞争对手有判断题（True or False）以及填空题（Fill in the blank），我很喜欢。所以我认为如果我们能现场把这个功能做出来会很酷。听起来怎么样？

[原文] [Lenny]: I love it. Crossing your fingers, this all work. I just want to highlight the stuff you shared right before this in cursor. So this is a huge deal, what you describe here. This is essentially what you've figured out is a way as a person that has no idea how to write any code, how to build a product in Cursor as a product manager using this series of /commands that you've concocted that you're going to be sharing with listeners. They can download all these and just use them directly. They don't have to figure out all these prompts that you've figured out.

[译文] [Lenny]: 我很喜欢。祈祷这一切都能顺利运行。我只想重点强调一下你刚才在 Cursor 里分享的内容。你所描述的东西意义重大。本质上，作为一个完全不知道怎么写代码的人，你摸索出了一种方法：作为产品经理在 Cursor 中构建产品，使用的是你自己炮制的这一系列 /commands（斜杠指令），而且你还要把这些分享给听众。他们可以下载所有这些指令并直接使用。他们不需要自己去琢磨你已经搞明白的这些提示词。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah, 100%. Basically what happened was I formulated the backbone of this with the CTO, and it was basically within the system prompt of the CTO project that I had within GPT. So it said, step one, we do this. Step two, we do this. And now I'll keep building. And if I see something that happens over and over again, I'll just create a /command and then it will be automated within the workflow.

[译文] [Zevi]: 对，百分之百。基本上发生的情况是，我和那个“CTO”一起制定了这个框架的骨干，它最初基本上是在我 GPT 里的那个 CTO Project 的系统提示词里。它规定第一步做这个，第二步做那个。现在我继续构建。如果我看到某件事反复发生，我就创建一个 /command，然后它就会在工作流中被自动化。

[原文] [Lenny]: Amazing. So just to summarize the /command. So one is create an issue in Linear, which I love. Linear is awesome. Shout out Linear. That's also from the product pass.

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。总结一下这些 /command。第一是 Create Issue in Linear（在 Linear 中创建工单），我很喜欢。Linear 很棒。致敬 Linear。那也是 Product Pass（Lenny 的福利包）里的。

[原文] [Zevi]: From the product pass. Oh my God, what a value?

[译文] [Zevi]: 在 Product Pass 里。天哪，太值了吧？

[原文] [Lenny]: Okay. So step one is create the issue in linear. So it's a command. So this prompt /command you've created, just create issue. Then it's explore, which is explore the idea, help me ideate on what this could be. And this is Claude helping you think through the feature and product. And then it's actually create the plan. And so it's like the AI helping you build the plan to build the product. Then it's actually execute, which is just build the thing. And then there's this review, peer review step, which is awesome that you'll share. And then there's document, update documentation based on the new feature that we're adding. Sweet.

[译文] [Lenny]: 好的。所以第一步是在 Linear 中创建工单。这是一个指令。你创建的这个提示词/command 就是 create issue。然后是 Explore（探索），即探索想法，帮我构思这可能是什么样子的。这是 Claude 在帮你思考功能和产品。然后是 Create Plan（创建计划）。这就像 AI 帮你制定构建产品的计划。然后是 Execute（执行），就是去构建这个东西。接着是 Review（审查）和 Peer Review（同行评审）步骤，这部分你能分享真是太棒了。最后是 Document（文档），基于我们添加的新功能更新文档。太好了。

章节 4：实战演示（一）——需求捕捉与深度探索

📝 本节摘要：

本节进入实战环节，Zevi 演示了如何利用语音输入工具（Wispr Flow）配合 /create issue 指令，将一个模糊的想法（为 App 增加“填空题”功能）迅速转化为 Linear 中的标准化工单。他解释了 MCP（Model Context Protocol）技术如何让 AI 直接操作外部工具。随后，他展示了 /exploration phase（探索阶段），在这个阶段，AI 不会急于写代码，而是像一位严谨的工程经理一样，阅读代码库和工单，分析数据模型和 UX/UI，并向用户提出一系列澄清性问题以挑战需求的合理性。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah. Cool. So let's go ahead and start building. So I'm going to use Wispr Flow to dictate and basically this starts with /create issue. So this basically sends that prompt. And I love this because I usually do this during when I'm building something else. So basically it tells Claude that I'm mid building something and I don't have a lot of time to waste time on this. So just ask some brief questions so that you have enough to capture within linear.

[译文] [Zevi]: 好。酷。那我们要开始构建了。我会用 Wispr Flow 来进行语音口述，基本上以输入 /create issue 开始。这基本上就是发送那个提示词。我超爱这个功能，因为我通常在构建其他东西的中途做这个。所以这基本上告诉 Claude，我正在构建某样东西的中途，没太多时间在这上面浪费。所以只需问一些简短的问题，只要足够你在 Linear 里捕捉到这个任务就行,。

[原文] [Zevi]: So I want to add fill in the blank questions to StudyMate. I want this to be 30% of tests to be generated as fill in the blank questions. I want there to be six potential answers for two blank spots, and of course there's only going to be two correct answers. So one correct answer and two incorrect answers for each spot and I want the interface to be drag and drop. So that's just basically a quick think of how I want this to work.

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以我想给 StudyMate 增加“填空题”。我希望生成的测试中有 30% 是填空题。我希望针对两个填空处有六个备选答案，当然只有两个是正确答案。所以每个空有一个正确答案和两个错误干扰项，我希望界面是拖拽式的（drag and drop）。这基本上就是我对它如何运作的一个快速构思,。

[原文] [Zevi]: So it's going to ask me a few questions... So now basically what Claude is going to do is it's going to use MCP, which is basically a technology that was created by Anthropic, which gives AI the ability to use tools. So this is connected to my linear. So what it's going to do now is it's going to use everything we've said and create an issue within Linear.

[译文] [Zevi]: 它会问我几个问题……现在 Claude 基本上要做的是使用 MCP，这是 Anthropic 创建的一项技术，赋予 AI 使用工具的能力。这已经连接到了我的 Linear。所以它现在要把我们刚才说的一切信息，在 Linear 中创建一个工单,。

[原文] [Lenny]: And by the way, as this is loading, I just love the way, the way you described this, especially doing voice mode, it's like exactly how you would talk to an engineer describing a feature, "Here's what I want." And then they ask you questions, here's the clarification.

[译文] [Lenny]: 顺便说一句，趁着加载的时候我说一下，我真的很喜欢你描述这个的方式，尤其是使用语音模式，这简直就像你跟工程师描述一个功能一样：“这是我想要的。”然后他们问你问题，你给出澄清。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah. So at first when I was doing this with the CTO, I would do it with ChatGPT voice mode, and that was crazy. That literally felt like ideating with a person... Great. So created STU88. So if we open up Linear now, we should be able to see ... Let's see where STU88. There it is. Fill in the blank questions with drag and drop interface. So it has a TLDR, it has the current state. It did a little bit of research on the code base, I think, expected outcomes, some context.

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的。起初我和那个（虚拟）CTO 做这件事时，我是用 ChatGPT 语音模式做的，那太疯狂了。那感觉真的就像在和一个人一起构思……太好了。工单 STU88 创建成功。如果我们现在打开 Linear，应该能看到……看看 STU88 在哪。在这儿。“带拖拽界面的填空题”。它有 TLDR（摘要），有当前状态。我想它对代码库做了一点调研，还有预期结果和一些上下文,。

[原文] [Zevi]: So now let's say a few days go by, I finished the current project I'm working on, I can pick it up. So when I pick it up, I do /exploration phase, which is what we said. And then instead of pressing enter, I'll press tab and I'll show you this. So basically, exploration phase, what it does is it will take an argument. This is basically a placeholder within the prompt, which allows me to enter something that is extra context for the AI. So I can say here, Linear STU88, which is referencing the ticket.

[译文] [Zevi]: 假设几天过去了，我完成了手头的项目，可以开始处理这个了。当我接手时，我会输入 /exploration phase（探索阶段），就像我们之前说的。然后我不是按回车，而是按 Tab 键，给你展示一下。基本上，探索阶段会接受一个参数（argument）。这基本上是提示词里的一个占位符，允许我输入一些给 AI 的额外上下文。所以我可以在这里输入 Linear STU88，也就是引用那个工单。

[原文] [Lenny]: What's the goal of the exploration phase? This ideate on the idea. Is that the-

[译文] [Lenny]: 探索阶段的目标是什么？是对这个想法进行构思吗？是——

[原文] [Zevi]: So it's both for the CTO to deeply understand the problem that we're trying to solve and also understand the current state of the code base, what files need to be affected, and how is the best way to implement this technically. And usually what happens is right now, Claude is just basically reading a bunch of files, understanding the basic structure of the code, and then it's going to come back with a bunch of clarifying questions that will decide how we end up implementing this.

[译文] [Zevi]: 它的目标既是为了让 CTO 深度理解我们试图解决的问题，也是为了理解代码库的当前状态、哪些文件会受影响，以及从技术上实现它的最佳方式是什么。通常现在发生的情况是，Claude 基本上在读取大量文件，理解代码的基本结构，然后它会带着一堆澄清性问题回来，这些问题将决定我们最终如何实现这个功能,。

[原文] [Lenny]: So it feels like it's talking to your engineering manager.

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以感觉就像是在跟你的工程经理（Engineering Manager）谈话。

[原文] [Zevi]: Exactly, exactly. 100% this is how I think about it.

[译文] [Zevi]: 没错，没错。百分之百，我就是这么认为的。

[原文] [Zevi]: Now Claude basically comes back after it's gone through the code base and understood the way it currently works... And then it asks me some questions. So it's asking about the scope, it's asking about the data model, the UX/UI of the feature, how it should be validated, how it should be graded, what changes need to be happened to the AI system prompt and all kinds of questions about the app.

[译文] [Zevi]: 现在 Claude 在浏览完代码库并理解当前运作方式后回来了……然后它问了我一些问题。它问到了范围（scope）、数据模型、该功能的 UX/UI、如何验证、如何评分、AI 系统提示词需要做什么变更，以及关于 App 的各种问题,。

[原文] [Lenny]: Awesome. I love it. And I love just scanning those questions I was asking. It's like such smart, sophisticated, important questions instead of just, "Cool, here I go, I'm going to build it."

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。我喜欢。我光是扫一眼它问的那些问题就觉得很棒。那些是非常聪明、复杂且重要的问题，而不是简单地说一句：“酷，我这就去把它做出来。”,

章节 5：实战演示（二）——计划生成与多模型协作

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Zevi 演示了从需求探索到代码落地的关键步骤。他使用 /create plan 指令生成了一份包含详细任务列表和关键决策的 Markdown 计划文档。Zevi 展示了他如何利用不同 AI 模型的优势——例如利用 Google 的 Gemini 3 处理前端 UI，利用 Cursor 的 Composer 追求极致速度。此外，他深入探讨了 Bolt/Lovable 与 Cursor 的本质区别：前者提供了便捷的“挽具（harness）”但预设了太多立场（opinionated），后者虽然需要用户做更多决策，但给予了完全的控制权。最后，他分享了一个“时光机时刻”，讲述自己如何同时指挥三个 Agent 并行工作，仿佛生活在未来。

[原文] [Zevi]: Great. So Claude basically comes back and says how it understands the current data model and how it's going to implement. Yeah, so it's ready to create the plan. So basically what I'm going to do now is I'm going to go and do /create plan and while Claude is doing this, I'm going to show really quick what this looks like.

[译文] [Zevi]: 太好了。Claude 基本上回复了它对当前数据模型的理解以及它打算如何实现。是的，所以它准备好创建计划了。基本上我现在要做的就是去运行 /create plan（创建计划），在 Claude 执行这个的时候，我快速展示一下这是什么样子的。

[原文] [Zevi]: So basically, these plans are from a template that I found on Twitter. I forgot who it was, but it was just a template that really resonated with me. And it's basically saying, based on our exchange, create a markdown file that will be the plan, include clear, minimal, concise steps, track the status. So this basically has like status trackers on each task that Claude updates as it's going through and it will have a TLDR, some critical decisions that we've made and the plan itself.

[译文] [Zevi]: 基本上，这些计划源自我在 Twitter 上发现的一个模板。我忘了是谁发的了，但那个模板真的让我很有共鸣。它基本上是说，基于我们的交流，创建一个 Markdown 文件作为计划，包含清晰、极简、扼要的步骤，并追踪状态。所以这基本上在每个任务上都有状态追踪器，Claude 在执行过程中会更新它，并且它会包含一个 TLDR（太长不看版摘要）、我们做出的一些关键决策以及计划本身。

[原文] [Zevi]: So Claude has finished writing the plan, so we'll be able to look and see exactly what the plan is. So it has a TLDR, it has the critical decisions we've made and the tasks broken down. And this is a perfect plan and it's also a really good way to write this because a lot of times, I'll use different models to execute certain stuff. So Cursor has an amazing model called Composer, which is superfast.

[译文] [Zevi]: Claude 已经写完了计划，所以我们可以看看计划到底是什么。它有 TLDR，有我们做出的关键决策，还有拆解后的任务。这是一个完美的计划，这也是一种很好的编写方式，因为很多时候，我会用不同的模型来执行特定的事情。比如 Cursor 有一个很棒的模型叫 Composer，它超级快。

[原文] [Zevi]: So a lot of things that are not that complex, I'll use Composer. Gemini 3 that just came out is unbelievable at UI. So a lot of times, I'll split the plan into backend and front end, and then I'll have Gemini just read the plan and do the front end. So having this as a markdown file is really good. And also going forward, it's really good to have within the app so that later on, if an agent is writing code in a certain area, I can see what's already been done there.

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以很多不那么复杂的事情，我就用 Composer。刚发布的 Gemini 3 在 UI（用户界面）方面简直不可思议。所以很多时候，我会把计划拆分为后端和前端，然后让 Gemini 只读取计划并负责前端。所以把它存为 Markdown 文件真的很好。而且着眼于未来，把这个留在 App 里也很好，这样以后如果有智能体（Agent）在某个区域写代码，我就能看到那里已经完成了什么。

[原文] [Zevi]: So what we're going to do now is we're going to execute the plan. So now I think we're going to do this with Cursor just because Composer is so freaking fast. So what we can do is basically just say execute and then we can tag the file. And Composer is ridiculously fast. So that's it. It's off. It basically understands what the plan is and it's going to go ahead and start writing the code.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我们现在要做的是执行计划。我想我们现在用 Cursor 来做，仅仅因为 Composer 实在是太快了。所以我们能做的基本上就是说“execute（执行）”然后标记那个文件。Composer 快得离谱。就这样。它开始了。它基本上理解了计划是什么，然后就会开始写代码。

[原文] [Lenny]: Let me ask you a question while this is happening. You said that Lovable and Bolt and other apps in that space are just not enough to build really serious apps and you have to move to Cursor to do that. Tell us more about that. Just what's the limitation you ran into with those products and why you switched to Cursor?

[译文] [Lenny]: 趁这会儿我问个问题。你说 Lovable 和 Bolt 以及那个领域的其他 App 还不足以构建真正严肃的 App，你必须转到 Cursor 才行。跟我们多讲讲这个。你用那些产品时遇到了什么局限，为什么要转到 Cursor？

[原文] [Zevi]: I started using Cursor and Claude Code a few months ago and I haven't looked back, but at that time, these teams have been moving like crazy. So I don't want to say I wouldn't trust them. I don't know what the current state is. But for me, it was basically the issue of I felt that Bolt was being very opinionated on how I should do things. And I felt like my knowledge has gotten to a point where I can graduate and be more in control.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我几个月前开始使用 Cursor 和 Claude Code，之后就没再回头，但在那时，这些团队的发展速度非常疯狂。所以我不想说我不信任他们。我不知道现在的状态如何。但对我来说，基本的问题是我觉得 Bolt 对我应该如何做事太有主见了（opinionated）。我觉得我的知识已经积累到了一个点，可以“毕业”并掌握更多控制权了。

[原文] [Zevi]: By the way, I think that the main difference between all these tools is basically the harness. So the models are all the same models. I'll run Claude within Cursor, I'll run it within Claude Code, and it's also the models that Claude is also the model that is underlying Bolt and Lovable, but basically, Bolt and Lovable will add a bunch of levels in the middle that will take all kind of guesswork and hard decisions out for the user.

[译文] [Zevi]: 顺便说一句，我认为所有这些工具的主要区别基本上在于“挽具（harness）”。模型其实都是同样的模型。我在 Cursor 里运行 Claude，在 Claude Code 里运行它，这和 Bolt 与 Lovable 底层的 Claude 模型是一样的，但基本上，Bolt 和 Lovable 会在中间增加很多层级，为用户省去各种猜测和艰难的决策。

[原文] [Zevi]: So the user doesn't have to make these hard decisions. So it's also very easy to build, but the flip side of that is that you have less control. And basically Claude Code is just taking Claude and shoving it straight in your code system and giving it full tools and to do whatever it wants, but also with that comes a lot of decisions that you need to make. So I don't know if you can't build really amazing production apps using Bolt or Lovable now, but I think basically if you want the most cutting edge abilities of the models and you want to be able to make all the decisions on your own, it's probably best to be on one of these tools.

[译文] [Zevi]: 这样用户就不必做这些艰难的决定。所以构建起来非常容易，但反面就是你的控制权变少了。而 Claude Code 基本上就是把 Claude 直接塞进你的代码系统里，给它全套工具让它想干嘛干嘛，但也随之而来很多你需要做的决定。所以我不知道现在是否不能用 Bolt 或 Lovable 构建惊艳的生产级应用，但我认为基本上如果你想要模型最前沿的能力，并且你想能够自己做所有决定，最好还是用（Cursor/Claude Code）这类工具。

[原文] [Lenny]: What I'm feeling and hearing is that planning work that you did, that's the stuff that Lovable, Bolt, and would you put Replit in that bucket too?

[译文] [Lenny]: 我感觉到并且听到的是，你做的那些计划工作，正是 Lovable、Bolt——你会把 Replit 也归入这一类吗？——

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah, for sure. Lovable, Bolt, Replit, Base44.

[译文] [Zevi]: 对，肯定。Lovable, Bolt, Replit, Base44。

[原文] [Lenny]: v0.

[译文] [Lenny]: v0。

[原文] [Lenny]: So essentially, they're doing that planning for you. And as you said, they're very opinionated. They try to make it easy. So it's just like, "Here's how to do it. Here's the way we think is best for people." And what you're saying is once you're trying to get a little more serious about it or want to go in a different direction, you don't have the power to change how they plan. So Cursor lets you do that.

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以本质上，它们是在替你做计划。正如你所说，它们非常有主见。它们试图让事情变得简单。就像是说：“这是做法。这是我们认为对人们最好的方式。”而你的意思是，一旦你想更严肃地对待它，或者想往不同的方向走，你没有权力去改变它们的计划方式。所以 Cursor 让你能够做到这一点。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah. I don't want this to come out like I'm badmouthing them. Base44, let's say... Base44 does an amazing job at basically taking all the complex guesswork out of building product and just allows you to just go with the vibes and build, but it will do sign in with Google for you and it will do a database, but then you don't have decisions on what database am I using. Do I need sign in with Google this way or another way? It would just do it out of the box. So that's basically the trade-off there.

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的。我不希望这听起来像我在说它们坏话。拿 Base44 来说……Base44 做得非常棒，它基本上剔除了构建产品中所有复杂的猜测工作，让你只需要跟着感觉（vibes）去构建，但它会替你做 Google 登录，替你做数据库，但你就没法决定我用什么数据库。我需要这种方式的 Google 登录还是另一种？它就是开箱即用。所以这基本上就是权衡所在。

[原文] [Lenny]: Okay. I just love how this is like the way you're like flinging, what's the word? Slinging models like Gemini 3 for frontend. I love that you've never written any code and you're just like, "Cool, use Gemini for this and Claude for this. And I'm just working on Cursor, talking to this CTO, helping you build stuff and build significant product."

[译文] [Lenny]: 好的。我太喜欢你这种——怎么形容来着？——随意甩出（slinging）各种模型的样子，比如用 Gemini 3 做前端。我喜欢你从来没写过代码，却在那儿说：“酷，用 Gemini 做这个，用 Claude 做那个。我就在 Cursor 上工作，跟这个 CTO 聊天，帮你自己构建东西，构建重要的产品。”

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah. We just live in the craziest of times where basically the world changes once a week, it feels like. And there is just no boundaries. You can use all of these just on your regular MacBook or regular laptop. And I have these moments, I call them time machine moments, which is basically this week, for instance, I was prepping for the podcast using Claude with a project. I was building, I was fully localizing StudyMate from Hebrew to English, which I did in two days, which would probably take a dev team weeks. And I was building a personal site, which went from no domain, no nothing, to live on a domain within an hour and a half.

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的。我们生活在一个最疯狂的时代，感觉世界基本上每周都在变。而且没有任何界限。你可以在你普通的 MacBook 或笔记本电脑上使用所有这些工具。我会有一些时刻，我称之为“时光机时刻（time machine moments）”，比如这周，我在用 Claude 的一个 Project 准备这期播客。同时我在构建产品，把 StudyMate 从希伯来语完全本地化为英语，我两天就搞定了，这通常可能需要一个开发团队几周的时间。我还在建立一个个人网站，从没有域名、什么都没有，到一个半小时内上线。

[原文] [Zevi]: And I was doing all three of these in parallel. And there was a point where basically all three of the agents were running, so I didn't have anything to do. I just had to let them think, and these are the time machine moments where I feel like I was in the future and I just stick my head out of the time machine and whoever's next to me, at the moment it was my wife, I'll just say, "We live in the future." And she'll be like, "Huh, what?" And I'll be like, "No, no, don't worry about it."

[译文] [Zevi]: 我在并行做这三件事。有一个时刻，基本上三个智能体（Agents）都在运行，所以我无事可做。我只能让它们思考，这就是那些“时光机时刻”，我觉得我仿佛身处未来，我只是把头伸出时光机，不管谁在我身边——当时是我妻子——我会说：“我们生活在未来。”她会说：“哈，啥？”我会说：“没，没，别管了。”

[原文] [Zevi]: So now what we're going to do is we're going to run the app locally and we'll be able to see what Composer ended up building... For sure. No, Composer like the one thing is it's just so, so blazing fast, keeps you in flow. So yeah, full features take minutes.

[译文] [Zevi]: 那么现在我们要做的就是在本地运行这个 App，我们就能看到 Composer 最终构建了什么……当然。Composer 有一点就是它真的太快太快了，让你保持在心流中。所以是的，完整的功能只需要几分钟。

章节 6：实战演示（三）——基于人格化的“同行评审”机制

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Zevi 解决了一个非技术人员的核心痛点：如何审查 AI 写的代码？他提出了一套极具创意的“同行评审（Peer Review）”机制。Zevi 将不同的 AI 模型拟人化为不同性格的“技术主管（Dev Lead）”：Claude 是善于沟通的完美 CTO，GPT (Codex) 是穿着卫衣凉鞋、不爱说话但能搞定难题的技术大神，而 Gemini 则是过程惊悚但结果惊艳的“疯狂科学家/艺术家”。Zevi 通过 /peer review 指令让这些模型互相查找漏洞并进行“辩论”，以此来确保代码质量。

[原文] [Lenny]: So now the next phase after I've QA'd it and basically tested it manually, I'll have Claude review its own work. So what I'll do is I'll reopen Claude Code. I love this because this is one of the things that comes up a lot in this podcast is writing code is now so easy. The main challenge people have is reviewing the code that AI has written.

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以在我做完 QA（质量保证）并且基本上进行了人工测试之后的下一个阶段，我会让 Claude 审查它自己的工作。所以我现在的做法是重新打开 Claude Code。我之所以喜欢这个，是因为本播客中经常提到的一个点是：现在写代码太容易了。人们面临的主要挑战是如何审查 AI 写出来的代码。

[原文] [Zevi]: 100%. And what you're doing here is you're having Claude review its own code. Yeah, so this is another thing where it's very difficult for me to catch mistakes. So my review process has gone through a bunch of iterations to really be as good as possible and to catch as many things as possible. So I'll always manually QA at first to make sure if I can see any mistakes that Claude made. And then what I'll do is basically /review. And this tells Claude to start reviewing its own code.

[译文] [Zevi]: 百分之百。你在这里做的是让 Claude 审查它自己的代码。是的，这是另一回事，因为对我来说要发现错误非常困难。所以我的审查流程经历了很多次迭代，以确保尽可能好，并捕捉到尽可能多的问题。所以我总是先进行人工 QA，看看我能否发现 Claude 犯的任何错误。然后我会做的基本上就是输入 /review。这告诉 Claude 开始审查它自己的代码。

[原文] [Zevi]: But what's even cooler and something that I'm really proud of is I will usually do multiple reviews and I'll have Codex, which is ChatGPT's competitor to Claude Code, as well as cursor open, and I will have each of them review the code. And then what I do is I have a /command called peer review, which is really interesting. And basically what it does is it's going to take Claude, which is usually the agent who I'm working with. And just to put this in a mental model, this is basically my dev lead that I'm working with.

[译文] [Zevi]: 但更酷、也让我非常自豪的一点是，我通常会进行多重审查。我会打开 Codex——这是 ChatGPT 对应 Claude Code 的竞品——以及 Cursor，我会让它们每一个都来审查代码。然后我会用一个叫 peer review（同行评审）的斜杠指令，这非常有意思。基本上它做的是，它会把 Claude——通常是我正在合作的那个智能体——纳入进来。为了建立一个心智模型，你可以把它（Claude）看作是我正在合作的“技术主管（Dev Lead）”。

[原文] [Zevi]: The /command is basically saying, "You're the dead lead on this project. Other team leads within the company have looked at your code and reviewed it and found these issues." Don't take what they said at face value. The reason is you have more context than them and you led this project. You need to either explain why the stuff they found are not real issues and wrong or fix them yourself.

[译文] [Zevi]: 这个指令基本上是在说：“你是这个项目的技术主管。公司里的其他团队主管已经看了你的代码并进行了审查，发现了这些问题。不要盲目接受他们说的话。因为你比他们拥有更多的上下文，而且是你领导了这个项目。你需要要么解释为什么他们发现的问题不是真正的问题或者是错的，要么你自己把它们修好。”

[原文] [Zevi]: And it's really cool because the way I look at these things is I look at the models, I try to imagine them as people and I can really tell you how each one of these would be as a real human because they have... Each model has such distinct characteristics. So let's say Claude, she would be the perfect CTO. She's very communicative. She's very smart. She doesn't just go with the flow and do whatever you tell her. She's very opinionated, but also super collaborative, which is I think why I'm always drawn to Claude because I need to do so much learning and it's your dream, a very communicative, but very opinionated dev lead.

[译文] [Zevi]: 这真的很酷，因为我看待这些事物的方式是，我看着这些模型，试着把它们想象成人。我可以很确切地告诉你它们每一个如果是真人会是什么样，因为它们有……每个模型都有如此鲜明的特征。比如说 Claude，她会是完美的 CTO。她非常善于沟通。她非常聪明。她不会随波逐流，你让她做什么她就做什么。她非常有主见，但也超级擅长协作，我想这就是为什么我总是被 Claude 吸引，因为我需要学习很多东西，而她就是你梦想中的那种——既善于沟通又非常有主见的技术主管。

[原文] [Zevi]: But then there's also Codex. So I use Codex 5.1 Max, whatever. I don't know, they're not the best at naming models, but GPT's model. I always imagine it as like the best coder within the company who comes to the office with a hoodie and sandals and sits in a dark room. And you basically only bother him when you have the worst bugs and you say, "Listen, we have this bug and it will just close the door for two hours and come out and say, I fixed it." And you're like, "Wait, what? Are you going to tell us what happened or whatever?" And he's like, "Don't worry about it. I fixed it." It's like really not communicative, but it solves all the worst problems.

[译文] [Zevi]: 但还有 Codex。我用的是 Codex 5.1 Max 之类的，不管叫啥。我不清楚，他们不太擅长给模型起名，反正就是 GPT 的模型。我总是把它想象成公司里最牛的程序员，穿着连帽衫和凉鞋来办公室，坐在一个黑暗的房间里。基本上只有当你遇到最糟糕的 Bug 时才会去打扰他，你说：“听着，我们有个 Bug。”他会关上门两小时，然后出来说：“我修好了。”你会问：“等会儿，啥？你不打算告诉我们发生了什么或者别的吗？”他就会说：“别管了。反正修好了。”它是那种真的不爱沟通，但能解决所有最棘手问题的人。

[原文] [Zevi]: And let's say Gemini is like a crazy scientist who's super artsy, super talented at designing, but if you sit next to it and watch it work, it's terrifying. You would fire that person instantly. This might be just my experience, but when I'm using Gemini within antigravity, which is Google's new competitor to Cursor, when it's writing code, you can see the steps it's taking and it's terrifying. You'll say, "I want you to redesign the top of the dashboard." And you're looking at its thought process and it will say, "Oh, first things first, I'll delete the dashboard." And then it'll be like, "Nope, that was a mistake. I'll bring it back." And then it will say, "Oh, can I edit the database?" And you're like, "No, do not edit the database. You're just doing a redesign." And then it will end up designing something beautiful.

[译文] [Zevi]: 再说说 Gemini，它就像是一个疯狂的科学家，超级有艺术感，在设计上超级有天赋，但如果你坐在它旁边看它工作，那是很恐怖的。你会想立刻开除那个人。这可能只是我的经历，但当我在 Antigravity（Google 的 Cursor 竞品）里使用 Gemini 时，当它写代码时，你能看到它采取的步骤，那太吓人了。你会说：“我想让你重新设计仪表盘的顶部。”然后你看着它的思维过程，它会说：“噢，首要任务，我要删除仪表盘。”然后它又会说：“不，那是错误的。我把它弄回来。”然后它会说：“噢，我可以编辑数据库吗？”你会喊：“不，别改数据库。你只是做个重新设计。”结果最后它会设计出非常漂亮的东西。

[原文] [Zevi]: So the way there is a rollercoaster and very scary, but at the end of the day, Gemini is very good at design. So I think that using all these models and basically playing to their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses by using other models is a game changer for me. So I'll do peer review a bunch of times and I'll have other models review other models code and kind of have them fight it out basically. Sometimes Claude Code will get really sassy and be like, "This has been raised for the third time. And for the third time I'm telling you, this is not an issue. This is by design." So it's just a really cool thing that I've added and I haven't seen many people doing it.

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以这个过程就像坐过山车一样，非常吓人，但归根结底，Gemini 非常擅长设计。所以我认为，利用所有这些模型，通过使用其他模型来发挥它们的优势并规避它们的劣势，对我来说是一个游戏规则改变者。所以我会做很多次同行评审，让其他模型去审查别的模型写的代码，基本上就是让它们“互相打架”。有时候 Claude Code 会变得非常傲娇（sassy），它会说：“这已经是第三次有人提这个问题了。我第三次告诉你，这不是个问题。这是故意设计的。”这就是我添加的一个非常酷的环节，我还没见过多少人在做这个。

[原文] [Lenny]: Okay, cool. So we can let these run in. We don't actually have to go through the whole process, but is the idea once you get these results, you run peer review and you copy and paste kind of these results. Is that the idea?

[译文] [Lenny]: 好的，酷。我们可以让这些运行着。其实不必走完整个流程，但这背后的思路是不是：一旦你得到了这些结果，你运行同行评审，然后把这些结果复制粘贴进去。是这个思路吗？

[原文] [Zevi]: Exactly. I'll copy and paste the results. I'll do peer review and then I'll say dev lead one and then paste from one of the models. And then I'll say dev lead two and paste from the other model and basically have them fight it out until I feel like we have no more issues.

[译文] [Zevi]: 没错。我会复制粘贴结果。我会运行 peer review，然后输入“技术主管 1”，粘贴其中一个模型的结果。然后输入“技术主管 2”，粘贴另一个模型的结果，基本上就是让它们争论，直到我觉得我们没有更多问题为止。

章节 7：闭环优化——文档更新与错误反思

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Zevi 揭示了他提升 AI 编码质量的核心秘籍——建立“错误反思”的闭环。他指出，仅仅修好 Bug 是不够的，关键在于进行“事后复盘（Post-mortem）”。当 AI 犯错时，他会要求 AI 自省：“是你系统提示词或工具配置中的什么问题导致了这个错误？”基于 AI 的回答，他会更新系统文档（Docs）和工具配置（Tooling）。这种做法让提示词库和文档变成了一个不断自我进化的系统，确保同样的错误不会再次发生。

[原文] [Lenny]: Okay. Incredible. Let's wrap up this workflow. Is there anything else that's important in this workflow? And again, all this stuff is going to be available where people can just plug this stuff into their Cursor account and use it themselves.

[译文] [Lenny]: 好的。太不可思议了。让我们收尾这个工作流话题。在这个工作流中还有什么重要的东西吗？再说一次，所有这些东西都会提供给听众，大家可以直接把这些插件进自己的 Cursor 账号里使用。

[原文] [Zevi]: 100%. The one thing I'll say is that I think just like working in general with AI and even just like working on any product, doing constant postmortems is critical. So a lot of times we'll find all these kind of bugs or maybe Claude will fail to execute something correctly.

[译文] [Zevi]: 百分之百。我要说的有一点是，我认为就像通常使用 AI 工作，甚至就像做任何产品一样，进行持续的“事后复盘（postmortems）”是至关重要的。很多时候我们会发现各种 Bug，或者也许 Claude 没能正确执行某件事。

[原文] [Zevi]: And at the beginning when I started vibe coding, I would basically just keep running at it like running at the wall and until it worked. And once it worked, I was like, "All right, awesome. This works. Let's keep going." But I've learned over time that updating documentation and tooling is one of the biggest hacks for productivity.

[译文] [Zevi]: 在我刚开始“氛围编码（vibe coding）”的时候，我基本上就是不停地去撞墙，直到撞通为止。一旦它能跑了，我就想：“行，太棒了。能用了。继续搞下一个。”但我随着时间推移学到的是，更新文档和工具配置（tooling）是提高生产力的最大黑客技巧之一,。

[原文] [Zevi]: So when Claude will fail to do something or I'll see this really bad bug that shows that Claude really didn't understand something, I'll ask it, "What in your system prompt or tooling made you make this mistake?" And Claude will kind of like go introspective and think of what made it create that mistake.

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以当 Claude 做某事失败了，或者我看到一个非常糟糕的 Bug，表明 Claude 真的没理解某件事时，我会问它：“是你系统提示词或工具配置中的什么东西导致你犯了这个错？”然后 Claude 就会进行某种内省，思考是什么导致它制造了那个错误。

[原文] [Zevi]: And then I'll say, "Okay, great. Let's update your tooling and documentation so that this mistake never occurs again." And I do this every time I'm either building an internal tool or anything. And I think this is just like working.

[译文] [Zevi]: 然后我会说：“好的，太棒了。让我们更新你的工具配置和文档，以便这个错误永远不再发生。”我每次构建内部工具或任何东西时都会这么做。我觉得这就和（人类）工作是一样的,。

[原文] [Zevi]: If you end up doing a bunch of mistakes and then end up releasing the feature to users, so you're like, "All right, it's a big success." But going back and even when you've succeeded, looking and understanding what you did and what you could have done better is critical.

[译文] [Zevi]: 如果你最后犯了一堆错，然后把功能发布给用户了，你会觉得：“行，这是个大成功。”但回过头来，即使你成功了，去审视并理解你做了什么、以及什么本可以做得更好，这是至关重要的。

[原文] [Zevi]: And also using AI, this is probably one of the biggest unlocks. Going back to your prompts, understanding what was not good enough, iterating on them and then seeing how AI's responses get better, I think that's probably one of the most important things and one of the things that divides between people who are okay with using AI and the people who actually know how to use it.

[译文] [Zevi]: 在使用 AI 方面，这可能是最大的解锁技能之一。回头看你的提示词，理解哪里不够好，对它们进行迭代，然后看着 AI 的回答变得更好——我认为这可能是最重要的事情之一，也是区分那些“还凑合会用 AI 的人”和“真正懂得如何使用 AI 的人”的分水岭,。

[原文] [Lenny]: That is such good advice. So what I'm hearing is when the models do something dumb, make a mistake, you ask it to reflect on what the mistake it made was, and then you update the /command prompts with that knowledge so that in the future, it's not making that same mistake, and it just keeps getting better.

[译文] [Lenny]: 这建议太好了。所以我听到的是，当模型做了蠢事、犯了错，你让它反思它犯了什么错，然后你利用那个知识去更新 /command 提示词，这样在未来它就不会再犯同样的错，它就这样变得越来越好。

[原文] [Zevi]: Exactly. Not always the /commands. It will sometimes update different documentation or its tooling, but basically it's understanding what the root cause of the mistake that the AI made and fixing it.

[译文] [Zevi]: 没错。不一定是 /commands。有时候它会更新不同的文档或它的工具配置，但基本上就是理解 AI 所犯错误的根本原因（root cause）并修复它。

[原文] [Lenny]: Awesome. So the models are getting smarter and then there's also the other parts of your workflow can get smarter as you find flaws in the way it does stuff.

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。所以模型本身在变聪明，而随着你发现它做事方式中的缺陷，你工作流的其他部分也在变聪明。

[原文] [Zevi]: 100%. Yep.

[译文] [Zevi]: 百分之百。是的。

[原文] [Lenny]: Amazing. Okay. Is there anything else there before I move in a couple other directions?

[译文] [Lenny]:了不起。好的。在我转向其他几个方向之前，这里还有什么要补充的吗？

[原文] [Zevi]: I think that's it. I think we covered pretty much everything. Basically, just to wrap this up, what I do is I do a bunch of code review and then update the documentation so that everything is documented. So the next time I try to build a

章节 8：行业洞察——大型组织应用与“垃圾内容”陷阱

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，话题转向了大型组织（如 Meta）如何适配这套 AI 工作流。Zevi 建议首先由技术团队将代码库“AI 原生化”（添加大量 Markdown 说明文件），并建议 PM 从独立的 UI 项目入手，而非触碰核心数据库。他大胆预测未来职位头衔将崩溃，每个人都将成为“构建者”。针对 AI 会让人变懒或生成“垃圾内容（Slop）”的质疑，Zevi 进行了强有力的反驳：他认为 AI 是增强能力的导师而非思维的替代品，如果生成了垃圾内容，那是使用者没有提供足够的上下文或缺乏主权意识（Ownership）。最后，他提到了 Cursor 有趣的 /deslop（去垃圾化）指令。

[原文] [Lenny]: Got it. So it's just the beginning of an idea. Actually, let's come back after we go through this flow of how you would approach this if you were at say Meta or another, maybe a smaller company, how this workflow might work at a larger company that isn't just your own startup.

[译文] [Lenny]: 明白了。所以这只是一个想法的开端。实际上，在这个流程结束后，让我们回过头来聊聊，如果你是在比如 Meta 或者其他也许规模小一点的公司，你会怎么处理？这套工作流在非自己创业的大公司里该如何运作？

[原文] [Zevi]: I think that first making your code base AI native is a really important step, and I think this needs to be done by technical people. So basically my codebase has a ton of just plain text in it. So it will have a bunch of markdown files that explain to agents how to work in certain areas of the code base and high level structure so that the agents navigate through the code base easier.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我认为首先让你的代码库变成“AI 原生（AI native）”是非常重要的一步，而且我认为这需要由技术人员来完成。基本上，我的代码库里包含大量的纯文本。会有很多 Markdown 文件向智能体（Agents）解释如何在代码库的特定区域工作，以及高层级的结构，以便智能体能更容易地在代码库中导航。

[原文] [Zevi]: And I think that if this is set up in a really good way, I still don't think PMs should be shipping heavy database chain migrations or any big project, but contained UI projects, especially if you just build it, create the PR and send it to a dev to do the final finishes. I think that's definitely something that's possible. And I think we're going to see that a lot in the next coming years. I think basically everyone's going to become a builder, so it should be really interesting.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我认为如果这点设置得很好，虽然我仍然不认为 PM 应该去发布繁重的数据库链迁移或任何大项目，但对于独立的 UI 项目——特别是如果你只是构建它、创建 PR（拉取请求）并发送给开发人员做最后的收尾——我认为这绝对是可能的。我觉得在未来几年我们会经常看到这种情况。我认为基本上每个人都会成为“构建者”，这应该会非常有趣。

[原文] [Lenny]: Okay. So your advice here is as a PM, maybe don't go right to Cursor, start building, shipping, trying to ship features to production, especially complicated features. Do you think we'll get there? Do you think in a couple years, PMs will be doing this and it'll feel less scary and crazy?

[译文] [Lenny]: 好的。所以你给 PM 的建议是，也许不要直接上手 Cursor 去构建、发布并试图把功能推到生产环境，尤其是复杂的功能。你觉得我们会走到那一步吗？你觉得几年后，PM 做这些事会变得没那么可怕和疯狂吗？

[原文] [Zevi]: If there are PMs. Yeah, I think titles are going to collapse and responsibilities are going to collapse and everyone's just going to be building.

[译文] [Zevi]: 如果到时候还有 PM 这个职位的话。是的，我认为头衔将会崩溃，职责将会崩溃，每个人都将只是在“构建”。

[原文] [Lenny]: Let me ask you another question around just the job of a PM. One of the biggest fears people have with these AI tools for PMs for every function I imagine is just you start to rely on these things, your skills start to atrophy, you're producing all this slop that looks great, cool, amazing strategy doc. No, it's actually not at all good. Are these Linear tickets or just products that are half-baked? What's your take on these two parts of just like, how has this impacted your craft as a PM? Do you feel like this is weakening your skills because you're so reliant on these tools and just how do you keep the quality of this stuff up and not just like, "Eh, it's just a bunch of AI generated slop."

[译文] [Lenny]: 让我问另一个关于 PM 工作的问题。人们对这些 AI 工具最大的恐惧之一——我想这对每个职能部门都一样——就是你开始依赖这些东西，你的技能开始退化，你正在生产各种看起来很棒、很酷、很惊艳的策略文档，但实际上全是“垃圾（slop）”。不，它其实一点都不好。这些 Linear 工单或产品是不是半成品？你对这两部分有什么看法？比如这对你作为 PM 的技艺有何影响？你觉得因为太依赖这些工具导致你的技能变弱了吗？以及你如何保持产出的质量，而不是让它变成“呃，这只是一堆 AI 生成的垃圾”？

[原文] [Zevi]: I have a very strong disagree to this and I've heard it a bunch... And when I started working with my own Copilot, I remember people at work looking and saying like, "Oh, so you're basically outsourcing your thinking." And to me, that's just the worst way to look at it. And I think for some reason, these people usually have a high correlation with the kind of person who doesn't like to show their presentation when it's only 10% done or doesn't want to ask for help a lot.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我强烈不同意这一点，我听到过很多次这种说法……当我开始使用我自己的 Copilot 工作时，我记得同事们看着我说：“噢，所以你基本上是在外包你的思考。”对我来说，这是看待它的最糟糕的方式。我认为出于某种原因，这类人通常与那种不喜欢展示只完成了 10% 的演示文稿、或者不愿经常寻求帮助的人有很高的相关性。

[原文] [Zevi]: I think that there's a misconception with a lot of PMs that the job is always having the right answers and being the smartest person in the room. And at least how I was trained and how I believe the role of the PM is, it's the exact opposite. It's basically harnessing anything that can get us as quick as possible to delivering the right solution to users. And I just think this is like that really smart person that has context or your mentor or whatever, but is just always available and doesn't judge you and can really help you.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我认为很多 PM 有一个误解，认为这个工作就是永远拥有正确答案，并且做房间里最聪明的人。而至少按我受到的训练和我所坚信的 PM 角色来看，恰恰相反。它基本上是利用任何能让我们尽快向用户交付正确解决方案的资源。我只是觉得这（AI）就像是一个拥有上下文背景的极聪明的人，或者是你的导师，但他永远有空，不会评判你，并且能真正帮助你。

[原文] [Zevi]: So if you're using it to just create your outputs and then putting them out there, yeah, that's AI slop, but it's also human error. I think it's really important that you own your own outputs. If you put anything out there or show something in a product review and you say, "Oh, sorry, that was built by AI." That's your mistake. I think if you use these intentionally and really take the time to understand how to use AI in the correct way, it's one of the biggest game changers that will make you much better as a PM.

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以如果你只是用它来生成输出然后直接发出去，没错，那就是 AI 垃圾，但那也是人为错误。我认为为你自己的输出负责（own your own outputs）是非常重要的。如果你发布了什么东西或者在产品评审中展示了什么，然后你说：“噢，抱歉，那是 AI 生成的。”那是你的错误。我认为如果你有意识地使用这些工具，并真正花时间去理解如何正确使用 AI，它将是最大的游戏规则改变者之一，会让你成为一名更好的 PM。

[原文] [Zevi]: And another thing here is that, especially for more junior PMs, it allows you to play at such a higher level than you would normally. I think that at Wix, I wasn't thinking of what's the marketing strategy of the company and how will the onboarding be completely revamped within the whole product. But on my side product, I can just do whatever decisions I want and think of the strategy and marketing and the messaging. And this is basically just getting me reps, which is one of the most important things at the beginning of your career.

[译文] [Zevi]: 还有一点，尤其是对于较初级的 PM 来说，它允许你在比平时更高的层级上进行操作。比如在 Wix，我不会去思考公司的营销策略是什么，或者整个产品的入职流程（onboarding）该如何彻底改版。但在我的副业产品上，我可以做任何我想做的决定，思考策略、营销和信息传达。这基本上是在让我获得“重复训练（reps）”，这是你职业生涯初期最重要的事情之一。

[原文] [Lenny]: Is there anything that you've learned about reducing the sloppiness of the output, just like a tip for keeping the quality high of the stuff that it produces?

[译文] [Lenny]: 关于减少输出的草率感（sloppiness），你有什么心得吗？比如有什么保持产出高质量的技巧？

[原文] [Zevi]: Similar to people, setting up AI for success, for the task at hand. So if I just brought in a junior to write a deck or something and I didn't give it any guideline, I just said, "Give a strategy deck." He would probably just go online and find top strategy deck and just reproduce that, which is basically what AI is doing. It's basically just fed all of the internet. So instead of that, guiding it and giving it context on what your style of writing is and what you're trying to solve and all these different things, I think that's probably one of the biggest unlocks.

[译文] [Zevi]: 这和人一样，要为当下的任务给 AI 设定好成功的条件。如果我招个初级员工来写个 PPT 之类的，却不给任何指导方针，只说“给我个策略 PPT”。他可能会去网上找个顶级的策略 PPT 模板然后照猫画虎，这基本上就是 AI 在做的事。它基本上就是被喂了整个互联网的数据。所以，取而代之的是，引导它，给它上下文，告诉它你的写作风格是什么，你试图解决什么问题，以及所有这些不同的事情，我认为这可能是最大的解锁关键之一。

[原文] [Zevi]: So that's just a quick tip. And also Cursor has a /command called deslop, which is basically going back over the code. I don't know if this is integrated into the product yet, but it's on Twitter. Their founders have been talking about this, so that's definitely something I would run after just to make sure that no slop is left behind.

[译文] [Zevi]: 这只是个小技巧。另外 Cursor 有一个叫 /deslop（去垃圾化）的指令，基本上就是回过头来检查代码。我不知道这是否已经整合进产品里了，但在 Twitter 上有。他们的创始人一直在谈论这个，所以我绝对会在事后运行这个指令，以确保没有任何“垃圾”被遗留下来。

章节 9：职业黑客——AI 辅助面试与“失败角落”

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Zevi 分享了他如何利用 AI 成功通过 Meta 的高难度产品经理面试。他将自己比作数字原住民，在面对挑战时本能地“AI 优先”。具体策略包括：创建一个 Claude Project 作为全天候教练，利用 Perplexity 分析高频面试题，甚至自己写了一个 Base44 游戏来练习“用户细分”题目。他还强调了让 AI 扮演候选人以展示“完美答案”的重要性。在“失败角落”环节，Zevi 讲述了他在 Wix 实习初期的惨痛经历——试图独自憋大招却在评审中惨败，这让他领悟到新人不该追求做“10倍 PM”，而应做“10倍学习者”，并学会利用团队中每个人的特长作为导师。

[原文] [Lenny]: That is so funny, deslop. Okay. One more question, which may lead to something else, but kind of going in a whole different direction. You used AI to help you actually interview for the job that you got at Meta. Talk about how you did that, because a lot of people right now are struggling to find a job reading about all these people using AI to help them interview. You actually did it. What did you use? What worked?

[译文] [Lenny]: 太搞笑了，“去垃圾化（deslop）”。好的。还有一个问题，可能会引出别的话题，但这算是个完全不同的方向。你实际上是用 AI 帮你面试并拿到了 Meta 的这份工作。讲讲你是怎么做的吧，因为现在很多人都在为找工作发愁，同时也读到各种关于人们用 AI 辅助面试的文章。而你真的做到了。你用了什么？什么方法奏效了？

[原文] [Zevi]: I feel like the analogy here is I have 12 nieces and nephews and you can see how people who have grown up in a different world, how their mind is formed differently. So if you ask me, how do you answer a phone, I'll do this. But a child now, when you say, "How do you answer the phone?" They'll do this. They'll do the iPhone answer. And I feel like people who are growing up now in their professional lives were the same just with AI. So every time I'm faced with a new challenge or problem, I think AI first how to solve it.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我觉得这里有个类比，我有12个侄子侄女，你能看到在不同世界长大的人，思维方式是如何不同地形成的。如果你问我怎么接电话，我会做这个手势（模仿拿听筒）。但现在的孩子，当你问“怎么接电话？”他们会做这个手势（模仿滑屏）。他们做的是 iPhone 的接听手势。我觉得现在在职业生涯中成长的人也是一样，只是对象换成了 AI。所以每当我面临新的挑战或问题时，我首先想到的就是如何用 AI 来解决它。

[原文] [Zevi]: So Meta reached out and said they'd like me to interview. Straight away, I opened up a project within Claude. I started looking online for all the best information out there, things that I resonated with. I took a ton of frameworks and stuff from Ben Erez who has written a guest post for you, who I think is one of the best minds out there right now. And basically I created a project which was my coach, which I would come and consult what to do at each phase.

[译文] [Zevi]: 当 Meta 联系我说想让我去面试时。我第一时间就在 Claude 里开了一个 Project。我开始在网上搜索所有最好的信息，那些能让我产生共鸣的东西。我引用了很多 Ben Erez 的框架和资料，他给你写过客座文章，我认为他是目前最棒的头脑之一。基本上我创建了一个 Project 作为我的“教练”，我在每个阶段都会去咨询它该怎么做。

[原文] [Zevi]: I would mock interview with, and this was amazing. Also, I created a game in Base44, which helped me ... I was really struggling with segmentation within the product questions, so thinking of the correct segments. So I basically just created a quiz game, which creates questions and different segmentations and I have to choose. So this was like, I spun this up. It's a web app that I would play sometimes when I was on the bus to work.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我会和它进行模拟面试，这真的很棒。此外，我还在 Base44 里做了一个游戏，它帮我……我当时在产品面试题的“细分（segmentation）”环节非常挣扎，也就是思考正确的用户细分。所以我基本上做了一个问答游戏，它会生成问题和不同的细分选项，我必须做出选择。这就像是我随手搓出来的。那是一个 Web App，我有在坐公交车上班的路上有时会玩它。

[原文] [Zevi]: So basically, I think Ben talks about this a bunch, so I don't just go read Ben's stuff, but just creating a project and feeding it with all the best information on the internet and then mocking a bunch. I will say that the biggest game changer for me was doing human mocks. So cold outreaching to people on LinkedIn and having them do actual mocks for me, I think that at the end of the day, especially for the Meta PM prep, which is super competitive and difficult, I think there's no way to get around that.

[译文] [Zevi]: 基本上，我觉得 Ben 经常谈论这个，所以我不仅仅是读 Ben 的东西，而是创建一个 Project，把互联网上所有最好的信息喂给它，然后进行大量的模拟。但我必须说，对我来说最大的改变其实是进行“真人模拟”。所以在 LinkedIn 上向人们发冷信（cold outreach），让他们给我做真正的模拟面试，我认为归根结底，特别是对于竞争极其激烈且困难的 Meta PM 面试准备，我觉得这是无法绕过的环节。

[原文] [Lenny]: That is so cool they use that post. I wasn't aware. We're going to link to it. And in that post, Ben shares all these prompts you can feed ChatGPT to help you prepare for interviews, do mocks online. It's a really important point to say that those take you to a point, but it's actually better to use humans. I actually have a post coming out soon in collaboration with Noam Segal about how everyone is using AI to interview. And one of the most interesting ways I've heard people and that we've found in this research was that people use it to get feedback. They record the interview and then it gives them feedback. Here's where you could have done better. Here's what you missed because the feedback loop is so missing. No one ever tells you, here's what you did badly in this interview. No one tells you that, and AI can do that.

[译文] [Lenny]: 你用了那篇文章真是太酷了。我都没意识到。我们会把链接放上去。在那篇文章里，Ben 分享了所有这些你可以喂给 ChatGPT 的提示词，帮你在网上做准备和模拟。很重要的一点是，这些能带你走到某一步，但用真人其实更好。实际上我很快会发布一篇和 Noam Segal 合作的文章，关于大家是如何用 AI 来面试的。我们在研究中发现的最有趣的方法之一，就是人们用它来获取反馈。他们录下面试过程，然后 AI 会给他们反馈：“这里你可以做得更好。这里你漏掉了什么。”因为（传统面试中）反馈循环是缺失的。没人会告诉你，你在这次面试中哪里做得不好。没人会告诉你这些，但 AI 可以。

[原文] [Zevi]: So I'll add two things to that. One, which is exactly this. So I'll mock with AI. Also, I did something really cool where there's a question bank online free by Louis Lynn, which basically is an always updating bank of questions that people are asked in real interviews. And I basically used Comet, which is the Perplexity's browser. And I had the agent run all kinds of analyses on what the most asked questions are. And that's how I knew how to prioritize what questions I would mock.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我对此再补充两点。第一点正是你说的这个。我会用 AI 模拟。此外，我还做了一件很酷的事，网上有一个 Louis Lynn 提供的免费题库，基本上是一个不断更新的、人们在真实面试中被问到的问题库。我基本上使用了 Comet，也就是 Perplexity 的浏览器。我让智能体运行各种分析，找出被问得最多的问题是什么。这就是我如何知道该优先模拟哪些问题的方法。

[原文] [Zevi]: And then at the end of these mocks, I would tell Claude within the project, "You're my coach and I don't want you to make me feel good. I want you to make me as ready as possible for these interviews. So give me feedback, like you said." And the other thing that I did was really cool was some questions where I didn't have time to mock. I would ask Claude to play the candidate, and then it would just give me a really good answer. And I could also learn from that, like learning from someone who does a perfect answer.

[译文] [Zevi]: 在这些模拟结束时，我会告诉 Project 里的 Claude：“你是我的教练，我不希望你让我自我感觉良好。我要你让我为这些面试做好最充分的准备。所以像你刚才说的，给我反馈。”我做的另一件很酷的事是，针对一些我没时间模拟的问题，我会让 Claude 扮演候选人，然后它会给我一个非常好的答案。我也能从中学习，就像从一个能给出完美答案的人那里学习一样。

[原文] [Lenny]: Oh, man. I really love the way you phrased it, that people kind of in your generation, the default is, "I have something I need to do. Let's go to AI immediately and help me prepare for this thing, help me figure it out."

[译文] [Lenny]: 噢天哪。我真的很喜欢你的这种说法，你们这一代人，默认反应就是：“我有件事要做。立刻去找 AI 帮我准备，帮我搞定。”

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah.

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的。

[原文] [Lenny]: And this comes back to this quote that I always think about, which I think everyone is always hearing, but it's such an important quote that it's not that you will be replaced by AI at least for a long time. It's you'll be replaced by someone who's better at using AI than you.

[译文] [Lenny]: 这又回到了我常想的那句名言，我想每个人都经常听到，但它太重要了：至少在很长一段时间内，你不会被 AI 取代。你会被一个比你更擅长使用 AI 的人取代。

[原文] [Zevi]: I agree.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我同意。

[原文] [Lenny]: And that's what these conversations are for to help people keep up with all that and to learn some of these skills. And again, see where the future is going and start to learn how to get there yourself. Okay. Zevi, before we get to our very exciting lightning round, I'm going to take us to a recurring segment on this podcast I call Failure Corner.

[译文] [Lenny]: 这正是这些对话的目的，帮助人们跟上这一切，学习这些技能。再次强调，看清未来去向，并开始学习如何亲自到达那里。好的。Zevi，在我们进入非常激动人心的快问快答环节之前，我要带大家进入本播客的一个固定环节，我称之为“失败角落（Failure Corner）”。

[原文] [Lenny]: And why I love this segment is people come on this, just even this conversation, it's like all these amazing things you figured out, everything is going so well. People rarely hear the things that don't go well, and those are often the most interesting and impactful stories. So the question is just, what's the story of a time you failed in your career and what did you learn from that experience?

[译文] [Lenny]: 我之所以喜欢这个环节，是因为人们来到这里——即使是这次谈话——看起来都是你搞懂了所有这些惊人的东西，一切都顺风顺水。人们很少听到那些不顺利的事情，而那些往往是最有趣、最震撼的故事。所以问题就是：在你职业生涯中有哪一次失败的故事，你从那次经历中学到了什么？

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah, I love this. I love this. I love Failure Corner, big fan. So I'll tell a story about when I started at Wix. So basically I started within Wix as a student program and straight out of the student program, you get put into a certain team. So I was in the editor, which is the core product of Wix. And the other PMs were just the best PMs almost at Wix. There's four other people had much more experience than me and they were ridiculously good.

[译文] [Zevi]: 好的，我喜欢这个问题。我喜欢。我是“失败角落”的忠实粉丝。我讲一个我刚去 Wix 时的故事。基本上我是通过学生项目进入 Wix 的，从学生项目出来后，你会被分配到某个团队。我在编辑器团队，那是 Wix 的核心产品。其他的 PM 简直是 Wix 最好的 PM。还有另外四个人，经验比我丰富得多，而且强得离谱。

[原文] [Zevi]: And I remember coming in and thinking like, my first product review, I'm going to blow these people's socks off. They're not going to believe how good of a PM I am. And I basically didn't really share what I was thinking. I would work tons of hours alone and I was like, "I'm going to kill this product review. They're going to be so impressed." And I ended up failing miserably. My product review was not good. It wasn't the format they expected. They had a ton of questions that I missed and I felt awful when it was over. I was like, "Ah, you're such an idiot."

[译文] [Zevi]: 我记得刚进去时心想，我的第一次产品评审，我要让这些人惊掉下巴。他们绝对不会相信我是一个多棒的 PM。我基本上没怎么分享我的想法。我独自工作了无数个小时，我想着：“我要在这次产品评审中大杀四方。他们会印象深刻的。”结果我败得很惨。我的产品评审很糟糕。那不是他们期望的格式。他们问了一堆我漏掉的问题，结束时我感觉糟透了。我心想：“啊，你真是个白痴。”

[原文] [Zevi]: And I saw that everyone was like, "All right, cool. Yeah, just come back in two weeks and we'll keep getting at this." And I understood in that moment that they had zero expectation of me being a 10X PM, but the expectation of me was being a 10X learner. And the second I understood that, my whole mindset shifted. And I think this is probably the best tip that I give now to junior PMs is basically be the best learner you can be at the beginning. No one expects you to know all the answers and no one expects you to be good.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我看到大家的反应大概是：“行吧，没事。两周后再来，我们继续搞。”那一刻我明白了，他们对我成为“10倍 PM”毫无期待，但他们对我的期待是成为一名“10倍学习者”。一旦我明白了这一点，我的整个心态都变了。我觉得这可能是我现在给初级 PM 最好的建议：在开始阶段，尽量做最好的学习者。没人指望你知道所有答案，也没人指望你有多厉害。

[原文] [Zevi]: So basically what I did was I took each person on the PM team, there was four other PMs and I assessed what their strength is and used them as a mentor for that. So Neri who's still my mentor till today, he has the best product sense of anyone I've met. Oya is super, she's like a methodology expert. She just thinks in frameworks. Yahra, who is the head of product, basically can look at a product and then instantly understand the third and fourth order effects of them, the system thinking.

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以我做的是，我针对 PM 团队里的每个人——还有另外四个 PM——评估他们的长处是什么，并把他们作为那一方面的导师。Neri 直到今天还是我的导师，他拥有我见过的最好的产品感（product sense）。Oya 超级棒，她就像个方法论专家。她完全是用框架来思考的。Yahra 是产品负责人，她基本上看一眼产品就能立刻理解它的三阶、四阶效应，也就是系统思维。

[原文] [Zevi]: So every time I had an issue with one of these areas, I would come to one of them and consult them, and this does two things. First of all, I learned a ton. And the second thing is that when the next time, the next product review, my success felt to them like their success because it wasn't this kid who's trying to show us up how cool he is. It was like our mentee kind of making us all proud. And it was such a great shift for me. And basically at the end of the day, I really excelled through this.

[译文] [Zevi]: 所以每当我在这些领域遇到问题，我就会去咨询他们中的一位，这起到了两个作用。首先，我学到了很多。其次，下一次，在下一次产品评审时，我的成功对他们来说就像是他们自己的成功，因为不再是那个试图炫耀自己多酷的小子了，而更像是我们的徒弟让我们感到骄傲。这对我来说是一个巨大的转变。基本上归根结底，我通过这种方式真正取得了优异的成绩。

章节 10：尾声与快问快答——创业精神与未来寄语

📝 本节摘要：

在访谈的最后部分，Zevi 对初入职场的年轻人发出了振奋人心的寄语。他反驳了“初级岗位消失”的悲观论调，认为现在是有史以来最适合成为“初学者”和“构建者”的时代。在快问快答环节，他推荐了《源泉》、《鞋狗》和《终身成长》等书籍，以及美剧《人生切割术》。最后，他分享了高中时期作为“Thermal Zevi”倒卖保暖内衣的趣事——通过在篮球赛中植入“洗脑广告歌”来促销，展现了他与生俱来的商业嗅觉。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah. So kind of to tie back into the first thing I said where if people walk away thinking, "Zevi's so cool." Then I've failed here. I think that it's just the best time to be alive, I think. It's the best time to be a junior contrary to what a lot of people are saying how there's no more junior roles out there and people get out of school and you can't find a role.

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的。所以回扣到我一开始说的那句话，如果人们听完后觉得“Zevi 真酷”，那我就失败了。我认为这正是活着的最好时代。我认为这是身为初级人员（junior）最好的时代，这与很多人的说法相反——他们说现在没有初级岗位了，人们毕业后找不到工作,。

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah, that's true. But also when else in history could you get out of school and just build a startup on your own with a couple of friends completely bootstrapped... I think contrary to what a lot of people think, it's the best time to be a junior. It's the best time to be a learner.

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的，那是事实。但在历史上还有什么时候，你能刚出校门就和几个朋友一起，完全白手起家地创办一家初创公司？……我认为这与很多人的想法相反，这是身为初级人员最好的时代。这是身为学习者最好的时代。

[原文] [Lenny]: Amazing. So many ways to be inspired from this conversation. Zevi, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。这次对话在很多方面都让人深受启发。Zevi，至此我们到了非常激动人心的“快问快答（Lightning Round）”环节。我有五个问题问你。准备好了吗？

[原文] [Zevi]: Yep, let's do it.

[译文] [Zevi]: 好的，来吧。

[原文] [Lenny]: What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

[译文] [Lenny]: 有哪两三本书是你最常推荐给别人的？

[原文] [Zevi]: So I'll take one from each kind of genre. So in fiction, I love The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand, one of my favorite books. Really makes you think, really makes you feel. Business books, I'm a big fan of Shoe Dog, the Nike story, one of my favorite books.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我会从不同类型里各选一本。小说类，我喜欢安·兰德的《源泉》（The Fountainhead），这是我最喜欢的书之一。它真的让你思考，让你感受。商业书籍，我是《鞋狗》（Shoe Dog）的超级粉丝，也就是耐克的故事，这是我最喜欢的书之一。

[原文] [Zevi]: And then more on the psychology side Mindset by Carol Dweck, who coined the term growth mindset. It's just such an amazing book... Really, I was always with a fixed mindset, and then after reading that, I kind of understood that it was something holding me back.

[译文] [Zevi]: 然后更多关于心理学方面的，是卡罗尔·德韦克的《终身成长》（Mindset），她提出了“成长型思维”这个术语。这是一本非常棒的书……真的，我以前总是持有固定型思维，读了那本书后，我才明白那是一种阻碍我的东西,。

[原文] [Lenny]: Favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?

[译文] [Lenny]: 最近有什么你非常喜欢的电影或电视剧吗？

[原文] [Zevi]: I just finished watching The Pitt, which was amazing. It was really good. And my first recommendation to everyone is if you haven't seen Severance run to see Severance, one of my favorite shows.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我刚看完《The Pitt》，非常精彩。真的很好看。但我给所有人的首要推荐是，如果你还没看过《人生切割术》（Severance），赶紧跑去看，那是我最喜欢的剧集之一。

[原文] [Lenny]: Is there a favorite product that you have recently discovered that you really love?

[译文] [Lenny]: 最近有没有发现什么你非常喜欢的产品？

[原文] [Zevi]: I recently discovered a Loom alternative... And there's an open source alternative called Cap, which is just really well-crafted. You can see that the person was really sweating the details and it's just a really, really great alternative. So I've been using that recently.

[译文] [Zevi]: 我最近发现了一个 Loom 的替代品……有一个开源的替代品叫 Kap（此处原文为 Cap，实指 Kap），制作得非常精良。你能看出开发者真的在细节上下了功夫，是一个非常非常棒的替代品。所以我最近一直在用它。

[原文] [Lenny]: Do you have a favorite life motto that you find yourself coming back to in work or in life?

[译文] [Lenny]: 你有没有最喜欢的人生座右铭，在工作或生活中经常会想起的？

[原文] [Zevi]: Yeah. I'm kind of between two right now. One, which has become a Twitter meme basically, which is you can just do things... and the second one I stole from my brother. His motto is nobody knows what the fuck they're doing. And I just love that.

[译文] [Zevi]: 是的。我现在在两个座右铭之间徘徊。第一个基本上已经成了 Twitter 上的梗，就是“你只管去做（you can just do things）”……第二个是我从我兄弟那偷来的。他的座右铭是“没人知道自己他妈在干什么（nobody knows what the fuck they're doing）”。我太喜欢这句话了,。

[原文] [Lenny]: Last question. You've had a long entrepreneurial thread throughout your career... You did a thermal clothing business... just tell the story of what that's about.

[译文] [Lenny]: 最后一个问题。你的职业生涯中一直贯穿着创业这条线……你做过保暖服装生意……讲讲那个故事是怎么回事吧,。

[原文] [Zevi]: So in high school, I was selling thermal clothes in 10th grade... So throughout the summer I called the importer... I ended up getting a really great price, like 12 and a half dollars a piece. So I was making 100% profit and I spread throughout a bunch of different schools.

[译文] [Zevi]: 在我高一（10年级）的时候，我在卖保暖服……整个暑假我都给进口商打电话……最后我拿到了一个非常棒的价格，大概每件 12.5 美元。所以我赚了 100% 的利润，并把业务扩展到了好几所不同的学校-。

[原文] [Zevi]: And then a really fun thing that I did was we had a really awesome basketball team... So I wrote a song, like a basketball chant about Thermal Clothes that basically has my number within it. And the end of it was if you join in now, we'll give you a discount. And it was with drums and everything. And still when I go to Jerusalem... sometimes when I walk in Jerusalem, people stop me and say like, "Hey, it's Thermal Zevi."

[译文] [Zevi]: 然后我做了一件很有趣的事，我们有一支很棒的篮球队……所以我写了一首歌，就像关于保暖服的篮球助威歌，里面基本上包含了我的电话号码。结尾是“如果你现在加入，我们就给你打折”。那是伴着鼓点和所有东西一起唱的。直到现在我去耶路撒冷……有时候我在街上走，人们会拦住我说：“嘿，这是‘保暖衣 Zevi’（Thermal Zevi）。”,

[原文] [Lenny]: Amazing. Zevi, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing so much... This is going to help, I think, a lot of people and I think it's going to help people get over the hump on. Okay, I see all these people doing cool stuff. Here's how I can actually do this stuff.

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。Zevi，非常感谢你的到来。非常感谢你分享这么多……我想这会帮助很多人，帮助人们跨过那道坎。好的，我看到大家都在做很酷的事。这（期节目）就是告诉大家我实际上该怎么做。

[原文] [Zevi]: Thank you for having me. And if you build something cool with some stuff that I learned here, hit me up, send me. I'd love to see.

[译文] [Zevi]: 谢谢邀请我。如果你用我在这里分享的东西构建出了什么酷玩意儿，联系我，发给我看看。我很想看。

章节 11：联系方式与最终结语

📝 本节摘要：

在访谈的最后时刻，Lenny 询问 Zevi 听众该如何联系他。Zevi 热情地邀请大家通过 LinkedIn 或 X（前 Twitter）与他交流，并特别提到希望学生群体尝试他的产品 StudyMate，以及以色列用户尝试他的听写工具 Dibur2text。Lenny 再次感谢 Zevi 的无私分享，并以标准的播客结束语为本期节目画上句号。

[原文] [Lenny]: This explains so much just the marketing genius of that move. Oh man. Okay. Zevi, this was incredible. Two final questions. Where can folks find you if they want to reach out and maybe follow up on some of the stuff? We'll link to the scripts and prompts and all that in the show notes so you don't have to read that, and then how can listeners be useful to you?

[译文] [Lenny]: 这解释了很多，那真是营销天才的举动。天哪。好的。Zevi，这太棒了。最后两个问题。如果大家想联系你，或者想跟进一些内容，他们可以在哪里找到你？我们会把脚本和提示词之类的链接放在节目简介（show notes）里，所以你不必念那些，那么听众能为你做些什么呢？

[原文] [Zevi]: Awesome. So I've been helped throughout my whole career a ton, so I love helping any way I can. So reach out on LinkedIn or on X. I'd really love to help whoever I can. How can listeners be useful to me? So if you're a student, try StudyMate, tell me what you think. If you're in Israel and you are not using dictation yet, try Dibur2text. Tell me what you think.

[译文] [Zevi]: 太棒了。我在整个职业生涯中得到了很多帮助，所以我很乐意尽我所能去帮助别人。所以请在 LinkedIn 或 X 上联系我。我真的很想帮助任何我能帮到的人。听众能为我做什么？如果你是学生，试用一下 StudyMate，告诉我你的想法。如果你在以色列且还没使用听写工具，试试 Dibur2text。告诉我你的想法。

[原文] [Lenny]: Amazing. I just love how much you're giving away and how useful that's going to be to so many people. So again, we'll link to that in the show notes. Zevi, you're awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing so much. This is going to help, I think, a lot of people and I think it's going to help people get over the hump on. Okay, I see all these people doing cool stuff. Here's how I can actually do this stuff. So thank you so much for being here and for sharing so much.

[译文] [Lenny]:了不起。我真的很喜欢你分享了这么多东西，这对很多人来说都将非常有用。再一次，我们会把链接放在节目简介里。Zevi，你太棒了。非常感谢你的到来。非常感谢你分享这么多。我认为这将帮助很多人，帮助人们跨过那道坎。好吧，我看到大家都在做很酷的事，（现在我知道）我实际上该怎么做这些事了。所以非常感谢你的到来和分享。

[原文] [Zevi]: Thank you for having me. And if you build something cool with some stuff that I learned here, hit me up, send me. I'd love to see.

[译文] [Zevi]: 谢谢邀请我。如果你用我在这里分享的东西构建出了什么酷玩意儿，联系我，发给我看看。我很想看。

[原文] [Lenny]: Amazing. Zevi, thank you so much for being here.

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。Zevi，非常感谢你的到来。

[原文] [Zevi]: Thank you.

[译文] [Zevi]: 谢谢。

[原文] [Lenny]: Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.

[译文] [Lenny]: 大家再见。非常感谢收听。如果你觉得这一期有价值，可以在 Apple Podcast、Spotify 或你喜欢的播客 App 上订阅本节目。另外，请考虑给我们评分或留言评论，因为这真的能帮助其他听众发现这个播客。你可以在 lennyspodcast.com 找到所有往期节目或了解更多关于本节目的信息。下期节目见。