📝 本节摘要：
本节访谈在深夜11点连线了当下的焦点人物Peter Steinberger。Peter回顾了自己过去13年的软件创业经历以及4年前出售公司后的状态。他坦言当时彻底精疲力竭（Burnout），甚至度过了一段疯狂的放纵时光。
经过三年的休息，他在去年（原文口误为2016年，结合语境应指近期）4月重新找回了“火花”（Spark）。起初他对AI持保留态度，但随着接触Cloud Code（注：此处原文录音可能指Claude或相关工具），他陷入了一种无法自拔的“良性成瘾”。他甚至为此建立了一个名为“代理匿名互助会”（Agents Anonymous）的社群，标志着他正式结束退休状态，以纯粹“找乐子”的心态回归技术界。
[原文] [Host]: from man of the hour how are you doing thank you so much for staying up late what time is it for you uh it's 11 thank you so much we really appreciate 11 p.m for everybody that's just Yes 11 p.m 11 p.m um so I'd love to kick it off with just a brief background on when you started this project a little bit of your career how you how you're thinking about it going forward and then I This was this was your very first project ever right yeah yeah yeah first time coding right no we were we were enjoying uh we were enjoying a screenshot of your your GitHub profile earlier and just seeing like how many how many different things an overnight success a true overnight success but uh we're super excited to have you here
[译文] [主持人]: 有请今天的焦点人物，你还好吗？非常感谢你熬夜连线。你那里现在几点了？呃，是11点。非常感谢，我们真的很感激。各位，是晚上11点。是的，晚上11点。嗯，我想先从简单的背景介绍开始，聊聊你什么时候开始这个项目的，简述一下你的职业生涯，以及你对未来的构想。然后，这是你生平第一个项目对吧？（笑）是啊是啊，第一次写代码对吧？不，我们刚才还在欣赏你GitHub个人主页的截图，看你做了多少不同的东西。真是一夜成名，真正的一夜成名。不管怎样，我们超级兴奋能请到你。
[原文] [Peter]: awesome yeah I'm excited to be here as well um yeah I don't know i I worked for my own software company for 13 years and then I I sold it about four years ago then I was completely burned out i did like I mean it's it's TV but still blackjack and hookers and wild well we're glad w
[译文] [Peter]: 太棒了，是的，我也很兴奋能来到这里。嗯，怎么说呢，我经营自己的软件公司长达13年，然后在大约四年前把它卖掉了。当时我完全精疲力竭（Burnout）了。我也过了一段……我是说虽然这是电视节目（不便细说），但确实是那种“21点和妓女”（Blackjack and hookers，引用自《飞出个未来》的梗，意指放纵享乐）的疯狂日子。
[原文] [Host]: e're glad you're back in the game
[译文] [主持人]: 我们很高兴你重回赛场。
[原文] [Peter]: yeah you know you know what they say like for every four years you need like one year break and I did like 13 years non-stop so like three years the math kind of checks out okay and then this year no last year now 2016 um in April uh at some point I my spark was back um because before I was like I was sitting on my computer and I don't know if you've seen Austin Powers but it it felt like someone sucked my Mojo out um but yeah I I had time to to recover i came back in April and I wanted to do something new my background was like a lot of Apple and iOS and I'm a little bit fed up i I wanted I wanted I wanted to build that stuff and I didn't have the experience i didn't want to feel like an idiot so I looked into AI and it was good it was not great but it was good um and I was like why is nobody talking about it you know I feel like because I missed those three years where it was really bad and I came back just at the time like cloud code was released wh
[译文] [Peter]: 是的，你知道人家常说，每工作四年就需要休息一年。我连续干了13年，所以休息三年在数学上是算得通的。然后今年，不，是去年，现在是2016年（注：此处原文可能为口误或录音转写错误，结合上下文语境应指2023年左右），嗯，在四月，某个时刻我的火花（spark）回来了。因为在此之前，我坐在电脑前，不知道你看过《王牌大贱谍》（Austin Powers）没有，那种感觉就像有人吸走了我的魔力（Mojo）。不过是的，我有时间恢复了。我在四月回归，想做点新东西。我的背景主要是Apple和iOS开发，但我有点腻了。我想构建那些东西（指AI），但我没有经验，又不想让自己觉得自己是个白痴，所以我开始研究AI。它当时还行，不算很棒，但也还行。我就想，为什么没人讨论这东西呢？你知道，我觉得可能是因为我错过了AI非常糟糕的那三年，而我回归的时机正好赶上Cloud Code（注：原文此处可能指Claude相关技术）发布……
[原文] [Peter]: at February in beta so this was my first experience i was like this is this is pretty awesome mhm and and then I I couldn't sleep anymore like I literally had trouble I had trouble going to bed you know like we had like addiction before and then like we had addiction again um but a but a positive one yeah well yeah I would say so um and I I hooked up a lot of my friends for uh looking into as well and they had the same problem and I texted them at like 4:00 a.m and they replied um I even I even started a a meetup that's where I come from i call it uh I called it cloud code anonymous now it's called agents anonymous because you have to go with the times sure and and yeah ever since then I That's what I say on my profile i came back from retirement to mess with AI and I'm having loads of fun
[译文] [Peter]: ……二月份发布的测试版。所以这是我的初体验，我当时觉得这太了不起了。嗯，然后我就睡不着觉了。我是说真的，我有入睡困难。你知道，就像我们以前有过成瘾问题，现在又成瘾了，但这是一种“良性成瘾”（positive addiction）。是的，我想是这样的。我把很多朋友也拉下水去研究这个，结果他们也遇到了同样的问题（指睡不着）。我在凌晨4点给他们发短信，他们居然秒回。我甚至发起了一个线下聚会（Meetup），那是我的老本行。我最初叫它“Cloud Code匿名互助会”（Cloud Code Anonymous），现在改名叫“代理匿名互助会”（Agents Anonymous），因为你得与时俱进嘛。确实，从那时起——正如我在个人简介里写的——我结束退休生活回来“捣鼓”AI，而且我玩得非常开心。
这是为您整理的访谈第二章节。本章节聚焦于Peter独特的“玩乐”开发哲学，以及他如何通过构建工具链（CLI）来实现所谓的“代理工程”，尽管这过程有时会演变成一种令人欲罢不能的“良性成瘾”。
📝 本节摘要：
主持人惊叹于项目GitHub星标（Stars）史无前例的垂直增长曲线，甚至看到非科技圈的人都在为了运行它而去买Mac Mini。Peter回应称，他的核心原则就是“找乐子”，认为玩乐是学习新技术的最佳途径。
他提出了“代理工程”（Agentic Engineering）的概念，并将其与时下流行的“氛围编程”（Vibe Coding）做对比。Peter强调，要让Agent发挥最大效能，关键在于构建CLI（命令行界面）工具来“闭环”，让Agent能以最顺手的方式编写软件。他还分享了一个有趣的观点：每个工程师通往“代理工程”的必经之路，就是因为觉得好玩而为自己构建一个“蹩脚的编排工具”。但他同时也坦承，这种开发体验极具成瘾性，甚至到了影响睡眠和心理健康的程度，就像是在“构建能更好地获取毒品的工具”。
[原文] [Host]: that's great i love it maybe maybe walk us through some of the other stuff that you shipped and and worked on prior to this and and even just kind of like your mindset working on these different projects i'm I'm assuming at different points you would think that some would get more traction than others but it would probably be impossible to have predicted in some ways that this would have gone from almost to the point the reason that this so wild is I'm seeing people on Instagram that like I don't think of as people that like follow tech at all and they're at the Apple store getting a Mac Mini so it feels like it just went it broke containment like incredibly quickly and you see the GitHub stars are like actually I've never seen a chart like this every you know the last the last you know every everybody loves to show their charts but the chart is actually unbelievable it's just a line going straight up i I I need to talk to someone at GitHub because I I don't think there's been a project before that that's been like straight it is it is it is bad shit insane yeah
[译文] [主持人]: 太棒了，我喜欢这个故事。也许可以带我们回顾一下你之前发布或参与过的其他项目，聊聊你在做这些不同项目时的心态？我假设在不同阶段，你会预判某些项目比其他的更有吸引力，但可能无论如何也无法预测到这次会火成这样。之所以说这次太疯狂了，是因为我在Instagram上看到那些我认为根本不关注科技圈的人，竟然跑去Apple Store买Mac Mini。感觉它就像瞬间“突破了收容措施”（broke containment，意指病毒式扩散）一样。你看那个GitHub的星标（Stars）图表，实际上我从未见过这样的曲线。你知道，大家都爱晒数据图，但这图简直难以置信，完全就是一条直线向上飙升。我得找GitHub的人聊聊，因为我觉得以前从来没有哪个项目是这样直线拉升的。这简直是疯狂得一塌糊涂（batshit insane）。
[原文] [Peter]: um I mean honestly my main mantra is I want to have fun you know like the best way to learn these new technologies if if you have fun with it you have to play with it so I I build little things that I think could be useful i try different languages i try different approaches um it's aic engineering i don't like the word v coding so much i always make the joke I I do aching engineering and then when it starts hitting 3:00 a.m i switch to vip coding and next I have regrets you should have just gone to sleep basically yeah yeah yeah sometimes that's hard
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，老实说，我的主要信条就是我想找乐子。你知道，学习这些新技术的最好方法就是你在其中找到乐趣，你必须去把玩它。所以我构建一些我觉得可能有用的微型工具，尝试不同的语言，尝试不同的方法。这就是“代理工程”（Agentic Engineering，原文误听为aic engineering）。我不太喜欢“氛围编程”（Vibe Coding，原文误听为v coding）这个词。我总是开玩笑说我在做“痛苦工程”（Aching Engineering，此处可能是Agentic的谐音梗或误听），然后一到凌晨3点，我就切换成“VIP编程”（VIP coding，可能指Vibe Coding的变体或自嘲），结果第二天我就后悔了，心想当时直接去睡觉得了。是啊是啊，有时候要停下来很难。
[原文] [Peter]: um but then I just I just build little things i had this idea about personal agents in in in May already and I I tried it was like the time that GBD41 was out it was just not good enough and then I thought well all the big all the big companies will build this in the next few months anyhow so So I was like why why the f should I do that you know i was just going to wait and they make it better and I build out and I I build a lot of stuff um there's like one project that is still unfinished that I at some point want to finish and I build a lot of a lot of CLI because that's that's where agents are really good you know you have to close the loop that's always the the secret you have to give you have to build it so that the agent has the best possible way to build software this is that's the the secret a little bit
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，然后我就做些小东西。其实早在五月份我就有过“个人代理”（Personal Agents）的想法。我试了一下，当时GPT-4（原文误听为GBD41）刚出来，效果还不够好。然后我就想，反正所有大厂在接下来几个月里都会做这个的，那我为什么要费那个劲去搞呢？你知道，我就想等着，等他们把东西做好了我再用。期间我做了很多东西，有一个项目到现在还没做完，我想找个时间把它完成了。我还构建了大量的CLI（命令行界面）工具，因为那才是Agent真正擅长的领域。你知道，你必须“闭环”（close the loop），这始终是秘诀所在。你必须提供条件，你必须构建环境，让Agent能以尽可能最好的方式去构建软件。这就是那个小秘密。
[原文] [Peter]: um I tried a lot of stuff and then in November I looked and still there was nothing like where is where is my fucking agent um I I I had a little project in in May i spent two months on it uh it it started as a joke because we I did a hackathon with with two friends and we like what can we build that that could be kind of cool wouldn't it be cool if I could use clot code from my phone yeah it's kind of like something that everybody builds i see this like every day like but now I almost call it like this is like one step in your journey in becoming a good authentic engineer is you're going to build some some shitty orchestration tool for yourself because it's fun and you think Yeah yeah yeah bridge and I I built that for 2 months
[译文] [Peter]: 我尝试了很多东西，然后到了十一月，我一看，还是啥都没有。我就想，我该死的Agent到底在哪里？我在五月份其实有个小项目，花了两个月时间。起初是个玩笑，当时我和两个朋友参加黑客松，我们在想做什么东西会比较酷。我们就想，如果能从手机上使用Claude Code（原文误听为clot code）岂不是很酷？是的，这有点像那种每个人都会去做的东西，我几乎每天都能看到类似的。但现在我几乎把这称为成为一名优秀的“代理工程师”（Agentic Engineer，原文误听为authentic engineer）的必经之路——你总会因为好玩而为自己构建一些蹩脚的编排工具，你会觉得“耶！耶！耶！搞个桥接器（bridge）”，我当时就为了这个搞了两个月。
[原文] [Peter]: and then uh I had to stop because it became so good that I was up with my friends but literally was my phone like using cloth code to like work on this thing and it's like this is bad for my mental health it's already bad and now like I'm I'm literally building something to have better access to my drugs yeah
[译文] [Peter]: 然后，呃，我不得不停下来。因为它变得太好用了，我和朋友们熬夜，但我真的是在用手机通过Claude Code（原文误听为cloth code）来开发这玩意儿。我就觉得，这对我的心理健康很有害，本来就已经够糟了，现在我就像是在——字面意义上地——构建某种工具，以便让我能更方便地获取我的“毒品”（指对编程的成瘾）。
[原文] [Host]: i mean I saw I I I've seen people using cloud code on laptops as they get off of airplanes because they're so locked in they just have to send one more and that's like the clearest sign that like you need a bridge and a phone involved yeah no but also like you know like this this feeling when your agent's not running like right now there's like two terminals so you could be building something right so So if you're in this addiction mode you're almost like you almost feel like if you need to step out for 10 seconds and fire off yeah feel free to take a break i can do an ad no there's there's still some drama that that I'm I'm I'm finishing but anyhow
[译文] [主持人]: 是啊，我看到有人刚下飞机就拿出笔记本电脑用Cloud Code，因为他们太投入了（locked in），非得再发一条指令不可。这就是最明显的信号，说明你需要一个桥接器，需要把手机拉进来。
[Peter]: 是的，而且你知道那种感觉，当你的Agent不在运行的时候……比如现在这里有两个终端窗口，其实你是可以正在构建点什么的，对吧？所以如果你处于这种成瘾模式，你会觉得哪怕只需离开10秒钟，你也想发个指令出去。
[主持人]: 没错，如果你想休息一下尽管去，我可以插播个广告（笑）。
[Peter]: 不用了，确实还有些“抓马”（drama，指正在运行的任务）我在收尾，但不管怎么说……
这是为您整理的访谈第三章节。本章节记录了整个项目最关键的“顿悟时刻”（Aha Moment）。Peter讲述了他如何一时兴起将Agent接入WhatsApp，以及在马拉喀什度假时，Agent如何在他并未编写代码的情况下，自主调用系统工具处理音频文件的神奇经历。
📝 本节摘要：
本节中，Peter分享了项目的起源故事。起初他只是为了方便去厨房时能监控电脑上的Agent，花了一小时“拼凑”了一个WhatsApp集成功能。
故事的高潮发生在他去马拉喀什（Marrakesh）庆祝生日的旅行中。他习惯性地给Agent发了一条语音消息，随后意识到自己根本没写处理语音的代码。然而，Agent在短暂的停顿后竟然完美回复了。Agent解释了它的操作逻辑：它检查了文件头，发现是Opus格式，于是自行调用电脑上的FFmpeg转换为Wav格式，发现没安装Whisper模型后，又搜索环境变找到OpenAI的密钥，调用API完成了转录。这一刻让Peter深刻意识到，这些AI不仅仅是程序，而是只要给予权限就能自主解决问题的“足智多谋的野兽”（resourceful beasts）。
[原文] [Peter]: um so in November I I don't know you know I wake up every day i'm like okay what do I want to work on now what would be cool and then they was like "Okay I I want to chat with my computer on WhatsApp because because if my agents are not running are running and then I go to the kitchen I want to check up on them or like I want to like do little prompts."
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，那是十一月的时候，我不知道，你知道我每天醒来都在想：“好吧，我现在想做什么？做什么会比较酷？”然后我就想：“好吧，我想通过WhatsApp和我的电脑聊天。因为如果我的Agent（智能体）正在运行或者不在运行，当我走到厨房时，我想检查一下它们的状态，或者我想发一些简短的提示词（Prompts）。”
[原文] [Peter]: Yeah so I I just hack together some WhatsApp integration that literally receives a message calls Cloud Code and then returns what Cloud Code returns one shot and it took like 1 hour and it worked i was like "Well okay that's kind of cool."
[译文] [Peter]: 是的，所以我花了一个小时胡乱拼凑（hack together）了一个WhatsApp集成功能，它的原理仅仅是接收消息，调用Cloud Code（注：此处指Claude或相关模型），然后把Cloud Code返回的内容发回来。一次通过，只花了一小时，它就能用了。我当时的反应是：“好吧，这还挺酷的。”
[原文] [Peter]: But I usually use prompts like a little text and an image cuz images are like they often give you so much context and you don't have to type so much so I feel like this is like one of the hacks where you can prompt faster just like make a screenshot so the agents are really good at figuring out what you want
[译文] [Peter]: 不过我通常使用的提示词是一小段文字加上一张图片，因为图片通常能提供非常多的上下文（Context），这样你就不用打那么多字了。所以我感觉这是能让你提示得更快的小技巧之一，只要截个屏就行，Agent真的很擅长搞清楚你想要什么。
[原文] [Peter]: um so I hacked together images and then I I was on a trip in Marrakesh with like a weekend birthday trip and I I found myself using this like way more than I than I saw but not for not for programming it's more like hey there like there's like restaurants um because it it had Google in it and it it could figure out stuff and it's like especially when you're on the go it's like super useful
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，所以我拼凑搞定了图片功能，然后我去了一趟马拉喀什（Marrakesh），那是一个周末生日旅行。我发现我使用它的频率比我预想的要高得多，但不是为了编程，更多是像：“嘿，这附近有什么餐厅？”因为它接入了Google，它能查出东西来。尤其是当你在外面跑的时候，这超级有用。
[原文] [Peter]: and then and I wasn't thinking I was just sending it a voice message you know but I didn't build that there was no support for voice messages in there so So the reading indicator came and I'm like "Oh I'm really curious what's what's happening now."
[译文] [Peter]: 然后，我当时没过脑子，就直接发了一条语音消息给它，你知道吧？但我根本没做这个功能，里面完全不支持语音消息。所以当“正在输入”的提示出现时，我就想：“噢，我真的很好奇现在会发生什么。”
[原文] [Peter]: And then after 10 seconds my agent replied as if nothing happened i'm like "How the f did you do that?" And it replied "Yeah you sent me you sent me a message but there was only a link to a file there's no file ending so I looked at the file header i found out that it's oppus so I used ffmpeg on your Mac to convert it to to wave and then I wanted to use Visper but didn't have it installed and there was an installed error but then I looked around and found the OpenAI key in your environment."
[译文] [Peter]: 大约10秒后，我的Agent回复了，就像什么事都没发生一样。我就想：“你他妈是怎么做到的？”它回复说：“是这样的，你发给我一条消息，但这只是一个文件链接，没有文件后缀名。所以我查看了文件头（File Header），发现它是Opus格式。于是我调用了你Mac上的FFmpeg把它转换成了Wav格式。然后我本想用Whisper（注：OpenAI的语音识别模型，原文口误为Visper），但发现没安装，报错了。但我四处找了找，在你环境变量里发现了OpenAI的密钥。”
[原文] [Peter]: So I sent it via curl to OpenAI um got the translation back and then I unresponded and that was like the moment where like wow you know it's like that's where it clicked these things are like damn smart resourceful beasts if you actually give them the power sure
[译文] [Peter]: “所以我通过Curl把文件发给了OpenAI，拿到了翻译结果，然后我就回复你了。”（注：原文"unresponded"疑为"responded"的口误或转录错误）。就在那一刻，我被震撼了，你知道吗？就在那一刻我顿悟了（Clicked）：如果你真的赋予它们权力，这些东西简直就是该死的足智多谋的野兽（Resourceful Beasts）。
这是为您整理的访谈第四章节。本章节深入探讨了Peter的技术哲学，他挑战了当前业界专注于“浏览器代理”的主流观点，提出了回归UNIX哲学、利用CLI（命令行界面）赋能Agent的独特见解。
📝 本节摘要：
在本节中，Peter指出业界目前对Agent的开发方向存在误区，过分关注浏览器（Browser）层面的自动化。他认为既然Agent可以跨越所有应用进行交互，就不应局限于浏览器。
他提出了一个核心观点：“Agent懂Unix”（Agents know Unix）。与其构建复杂的协议（如MCPs），不如回归最基础的CLI（命令行界面）。Agent可以通过读取帮助菜单（Help Menu）瞬间学会使用成千上万个小程序。他强调，未来的软件开发应遵循“为模型构建，而非为人类构建”的原则——即编写简单的CLI工具，利用模型对日志和参数的天然理解力，从而实现真正的自动化。通过这种方式，他成功将Sonos音响、摄像头和家庭自动化系统全部接入了Agent。
[原文] [Peter]: but you know I see this this project as as much technology as it is like art and exploration cuz this feels in one way in one way it's just glue it's it's it's just putting pieces together that we already have in another way it's it's a whole different way how you interact with those things because all the technology blends away you don't think about new session compaction which model i mean maybe a little bit because tokens are still expensive um but usually all of that blends away you just you just talk to a friend or a ghost or whatever
[译文] [Peter]: 你知道，我看待这个项目，既把它视为技术，也视为艺术和探索。因为从某种程度上说，这只是“胶水”，只是把我们要有的现成碎片拼在一起；但从另一种角度看，这是你与事物交互的一种全新方式。因为所有的技术细节都消融了（blends away），你不再去想什么新会话压缩、用的是哪个模型——我是说也许还会想一点点，因为Token（代币）还是挺贵的——但通常这一切都隐去了，你只是在和一个朋友、或者一个幽灵、或者随便什么东西对话。
[原文] [Peter]: it made me it made me last year everyone was wanting these agentic experiences you were having this experience and and it seemed like all the focus was on browsers and seeing the way that people have been using uh uh sorry mol maltbots it's taking me a while to adapt uh it just feels like all the focus was at the wrong layer it's like why do I care about the browser if I can just talk with an agent across every app across every app every every surface it's like I don't care about the browser at all anymore
[译文] [Peter]: 这让我意识到……去年每个人都想要这种Agent（智能体）体验，而你现在正拥有这种体验。当时似乎所有的焦点都集中在浏览器上，看着人们使用……呃，抱歉，Maltbot（注：此处指更名后的项目名），我还需要点时间适应。我只是觉得所有的焦点都放在了错误的层面上。这就好像，如果我可以跨越每一个App、每一个界面与Agent对话，我干嘛还要在乎浏览器？我完全不再在乎浏览器了。
[原文] [Peter]: i mean a lot of the prep work I did before I built this was just built little CLI because my my premises MCPS are crap mhm doesn't really scale uh people build like all kinds of weird search things around it but you know what scales clis uh agents know Unix you can have like a thousand little programs on your computer um you they just have to know the name they call the help menu they load in what's needed we are calling the help menu then they know how to use it and then they can use it
[译文] [Peter]: 我在构建这个项目之前做了很多准备工作，其实就是构建各种小型的CLI（命令行界面工具）。因为我的前提假设是：MCPs（Model Context Protocols，模型上下文协议）都是垃圾，嗯，真的无法扩展。人们围绕它构建了各种奇怪的搜索功能。但你知道什么能扩展吗？CLI。Agent懂Unix。你可以在电脑上装一千个小程序，它们只需要知道程序的名字，调用帮助菜单，加载所需的信息——只要调用帮助菜单，它们就知道怎么用了，然后就能直接使用。
[原文] [Peter]: and if you if you're smart you build it in a way that just uses what the model already expects you know don't build it for humans build it for models so if they call minus minus log you build minus minus log as it's like agentic driven for like yeah built built how they think and everything works better it's a new kind of software in a way
[译文] [Peter]: 如果你够聪明，你在构建工具时就会顺应模型原本的预期。你知道的，不要为人类构建，要为模型构建。所以如果它们（模型）习惯调用 --log，你就构建 --log 参数。这就像是“代理驱动”（Agentic Driven）的开发，按它们的思维方式去构建，一切都会运行得更好。从某种意义上说，这是一种新型的软件。
[原文] [Peter]: um so for most of the things I don't need a browser like I built something for the whole Google thing for places for my sonos I hooked up my cameras my my my home automation system like with every little CLI and skill my agent got more power and he got more fun Yeah
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，所以对于大多数事情，我根本不需要浏览器。比如我为了Google地图地点搜索做了个工具，还有我的Sonos音响，我连上了我的摄像头、我的家庭自动化系统。通过每一个小小的CLI和技能，我的Agent获得了更多的能力，它也变得更有趣了。是的。
这是为您整理的访谈第五章节。本章节记录了项目爆火后那疯狂的72小时，Peter描述了他是如何以“一人之力”应对足以压垮一家公司的巨大流量和社区需求的。
📝 本节摘要：
主持人询问Peter如何应对过去72小时内发生的巨变——无数人试图给他投资、收购公司或受雇于他，尽管他拥有无限机会，却似乎只专注于“找乐子”。
Peter坦言在睡眠方面“应对得很糟”，但这令人无限兴奋。他认为去年是“编程Agent之年”，而今年将是“个人助理之年”，他的项目唤醒了人们对这一需求的意识。
面对Twitter的爆炸式传播和Discord服务器的指数级增长，Peter分享了他独特的应对策略：他编写脚本将Discord频道的内容复制给AI（Codex），让AI自动回答前20个问题。他强调，外界看似有一家公司在运作，实际上只有他一个人坐在家里。之所以能做到这一点，是因为现在的“Agentic模型”（原文误听为Atlantic models）已经足够强大，能让一个人拥有堪比一家公司的产出效率。
[原文] [Host]: how are you how are you how have you been navigating the last uh 72 hours i mean the last the last week really because because we were joking earlier on the show like the amount of the amount of people that are frantically trying to give you money acquire the company you contribute to the project hire you uh you know there's companies with you know 0.01% of the traction that are raising at you know multi-billion dollar valuations you have infinite opportunities right now and yet you seem very happy doing just continuing to do exactly what you're doing but how are you thinking through it all
[译文] [主持人]: 你好吗？你是怎么度过这过去72小时的？我是说真的是过去这一周。因为我们在节目早些时候还在开玩笑，说有数量惊人的人正疯狂地试图给你塞钱、收购你的公司、为项目做贡献，或者雇佣你。呃，你知道，有些公司的关注度只有你的0.01%，却以数十亿美元的估值在融资。你现在拥有无限的机会，但你似乎非常满足于继续做你正在做的事情。你是怎么思考这一切的？
[原文] [Peter]: i mean how am I taking it badly at least sleepwise uh but it but it's also infinitely exciting and I I love that I started something you know i I I would say last year was the year of the coding agent this year is the year of the personal assistant mhm and I think I cracked and woke up people that there's a real need for it i don't know if if if Mobot is is the answer it's it should show people the way i'm sure there's going to be a lot of a lot of products in the space i'm sure people are manically working on it right now um I would say it's going to be very interesting
[译文] [Peter]: 我是说，我应对得挺糟的，至少在睡眠方面是这样。但这同时也令人无限兴奋，我很喜欢我开启了一些东西。你知道，我会说去年是“编程Agent”之年，而今年是“个人助理”之年。嗯，我认为我破解了它，并唤醒了人们，让他们意识到这里存在真正的需求。我不知道Mobot（注：此处指代项目名，可能为Multibot的误读）是否就是最终答案，但它应该能为人们指明方向。我确信这个领域会出现很多很多产品，我确信人们现在正疯狂地开发它。嗯，我会说这将变得非常有趣。
[原文] [Peter]: yeah but there was a lot of stuff um between Twitter literally exploding our Discord server multiplying in in ways I haven't seen before and in ways I I couldn't handle like at some point I was just copy pasting questions from Discord into Codex that the response wrote the next question at some point that didn't scale anymore so it just like copied the whole channel i'm like "Answer the answer the 20 most questions." I was like reading over it gave him a few instructions and and and then just pushed it over
[译文] [Peter]: 是的，但是发生了太多事情。Twitter简直爆炸了，我们的Discord服务器以我从未见过的方式成倍增长，也是我无法应付的方式。在某个时刻，我只能把Discord上的问题复制粘贴到Codex里，让它生成回答，再处理下一个问题。到了某个时刻，这种做法也无法扩展了（忙不过来了），所以我干脆复制整个频道的内容，然后对它说：“回答这其中最多的20个问题。”我就大概扫一眼，给它几条指令，然后就直接把回答发出去。
[原文] [Peter]: um cuz what what people don't realize it's like this is not a company this is like one dude sitting at home having fun um even though like I guess from the commits it it might appear that it's a company yeah that's that's just because Atlantic models got so good that you can now ship as much as a company could a year ago if you if you if you can handle those tools if you speak the language or like understand how the language thinks mhm you can you can go really fast
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，因为人们没有意识到，这并不是一家公司，这只是一个坐在家里找乐子的家伙。嗯，尽管我猜从代码提交记录（Commits）来看，它可能看起来像是一家公司。是的，但这仅仅是因为Atlantic模型（注：结合语境应指Agentic Models/代理模型或特定大模型）变得如此之好，以至于你现在的发布量可以抵得上哪怕是一年前的一家公司。如果你能驾驭这些工具，如果你会说这种语言，或者理解这种语言是如何思考的，嗯，你真的可以跑得飞快。
这是为您整理的访谈第六章节。本章节深入探讨了Peter对不同AI模型的独到评价，以及项目因商标问题被迫更名的幕后“抓马”时刻。
📝 本节摘要：
在本节中，主持人询问了各大AI实验室对该项目的反应。Peter表示，该项目的初衷是支持所有模型（包括本地模型），将其打造为一个“AI黑客的游乐场”。
在模型对比上，Peter认为Anthropic的Opus（原文转写为OPOS）目前遥遥领先，尤其是在“性格”方面，它能理解语境并在Discord中表现得像个真人，甚至懂得幽默。相比之下，OpenAI则更像是一个可靠的“工人”，在处理大型代码库时表现稳定（他特别提到了Codex）。
随后，Peter透露了一个爆炸性消息：他收到了Anthropic（原文转写为Entropic）的邮件，要求项目改名。尽管对方态度友好，但在项目流量巨大的时候改名是一场灾难。他不得不“即兴”操作，一边在Twitter上宣布，一边注册新账号，甚至还要跟抢注用户名的“加密货币机器人”（Crypto shills）赛跑。最终项目更名为“Maltbot”（或Multibot），尽管过程混乱，但他认为长远来看拥有独立品牌是好事。
[原文] [Host]: how are the conversations going with different labs i was saying earlier it's this kind of exciting moment for the labs because they're like wow people are using the intell you know someone's using the intelligence that I created in a new way but at the same time it's deeply uncomfortable because they're also using all of my competitors and you make it very easy to to kind of use whatever model
[译文] [主持人]: 你和各个实验室的沟通进行得怎么样？我之前说过，这对实验室来说是一个激动的时刻，因为他们会觉得：“哇，人们正在以一种全新的方式使用我创造的智能。”但同时，这也会让他们感到极度不适，因为用户也在使用所有竞争对手的模型，而你让这种“随意切换模型”变得非常容易。
[原文] [Peter]: um you know you know I my premise for this project was a little bit that every model should work including local models because to me it's a playground it's It's it's an amazing way to learn like I think everybody should like build an aentic loop you should like explore memory there's like so many interesting aspects of it and I I built it so that like it has like plugins so like people can work alone little thing without having to like mess with the whole core so it's it it's like the AI hackers paradise a little bit and it it's also super fun because it's personal
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，你知道，我对这个项目的前提假设是：所有模型都应该能用，包括本地模型。因为对我来说，这是一个游乐场。这是一种极好的学习方式。我认为每个人都应该去构建一个“代理循环”（Agentic Loop），去探索记忆机制，这其中有太多有趣的方面了。我把它构建成支持插件的形式，这样人们可以独立开发小功能，而不需要去动整个核心代码。所以这有点像是一个“AI黑客的天堂”，而且因为它是个性化的，所以超级好玩。
[原文] [Peter]: um modelwise OPOS is with quite a bit lead the best um OpenI is very reliable i would even say more reliable and more reliable worker like for coding I I I much prefer Codex because it it can navigate large code bases i literally you can literally prompt and then push to main and I have a very I have like 95% certainty that it actually works with cloud code you need you need more tricks to get the same you need more more charade I sometimes say both both are good but I can paralyze faster by codex because it it requires less handholding
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，从模型角度来看，Opus（原文误听为OPOS）目前遥遥领先，是最好的。OpenAI（原文误听为OpenI）非常可靠，我甚至会说它是更可靠、更靠谱的“工人”。比如在写代码方面，我更喜欢Codex，因为它能驾驭大型代码库。我真的可以直接写提示词，然后推送到主分支（Main），我有95%的把握它能跑通。而用Cloud Code（此处指Claude），你需要更多的技巧才能达到同样的效果，你需要更多的“伪装”或引导。我有时会说两者都很好，但我用Codex能并行处理得更快，因为它需要的保姆式指导更少,。
[原文] [Peter]: um but character-wise I tell you i don't know what they trained their model on how much of Reddit is in there or whatever but it it behaves so good in in a Discord like we programmed it so it it it it it kind of it kind of feels like a human it doesn't reply to every message i gave it this thing where it can reply no reply basically like a token and then we just don't send a message so So it it it's it's not like it spans with every message like it listens to the conversation and then sometimes brings a banger and like like that actually make me laugh and you know it's kind of hard because because the jokes of AIS are usually really bad yeah yeah um and I only really experienced that with with Opus so this is that's my favorite model
[译文] [Peter]: 但是，从“性格”角度来看，我告诉你，我不知道他们是用什么训练这个模型的，里面有多少Reddit的数据或者别的什么，但它在Discord里的表现简直太棒了。比如我们对它进行了编程，让它感觉起来像个人类。它不会回复每一条消息。我给它设了一个机制，它可以回复“不回复”（no reply），这基本上像个Token，如果是这个Token我们就什么都不发。所以它不会在每条消息下刷屏，它会倾听对话，然后偶尔抛出一个“炸裂的梗”（Banger），那种真的能让我笑出声的梗。你知道这很难得，因为AI讲的笑话通常都很烂。是的，是的。这种体验我只在Opus上感受过，所以这是我最喜欢的模型,。
[原文] [Peter]: that's also why it's a little bit of a banger that I got an email um from Entropic that I had to rename the project and I I mean kudos they were really nice they they they didn't send their lawyers they sent someone internally um but the timeline was a bit rough and like renaming a project with that much traction uh it was a bit of a shit show i think everything that everything that could have gone wrong today went wrong
[译文] [Peter]: 这也是为什么这件事有点讽刺（Banger）——我收到了一封来自Anthropic（原文误听为Entropic）的邮件，说我必须给项目改名。我是说，还要赞扬他们一下，他们真的很客气，没发律师函，而是让内部人员联系的我。但是时间线有点紧，而且在一个项目关注度这么高的时候改名……呃，那简直是一场灾难（Shit show）。我觉得今天所有能出岔子的地方都出岔子了。
[原文] [Host]: oh no i tell you i mean for what it's worth I think the new name works really well i guess the thing the thing that's actually good I think in the long run it'll be good i mean obviously it's good for Anthropic they It's It's kind of untenable to have this massive viral even though it's not a company right an open source project to have this viral kind of brand out in the world that it doesn't matter if it's you know it's spelled differently but when people are running around talking about Claudebot or Claude you know there's obvious confusion but I think it'll be very good for for uh Maltbot to have independence and have its own brand uh and I think it's so early and the experience is so magical that uh it'll it'll it'll solve itself very quickly it'll be fine
[译文] [主持人]: 噢不。不过我跟你说，不论如何，我觉得新名字其实很不错。我想长远来看这是好事。显然这对Anthropic是好事，因为即使你不是一家公司，只是个开源项目，但有一个如此病毒式传播的品牌在外流传，即便拼写不同（指Claude vs Cloud/Clawd），人们到处谈论“Claudebot”或“Claude”，确实会造成明显的混淆，这对他们来说是难以维持的。但我认为这对Maltbot（或Multibot）来说非常有好处，能拥有独立性，拥有自己的品牌。而且现在还处于非常早期的阶段，体验又如此神奇，这问题很快就会自行解决的，没事的,。
[原文] [Peter]: but I tell you like I I got some additional pressures i was like screw it we do it now you know like the meme we do it live so so so I I had two windows open with Twitter on the one I pressed rename on the other one like I finished creating the other account was already snapped by by cryptoshells wow i don't know they they have like they have like scripts they were already waiting for it in the should we would have connected you to X the team they can do it on the back end they can do it on the back end next time hopefully no next time yeah oh they they they they were amazing they helped me out immediately we we got it solved very quickly but but for like 20 minutes uh yeah well that didn't work out for well hopefully you're like You're like if I wanted money I would raise a billion dollars right
[译文] [Peter]: 但我跟你说，我当时面临着额外的压力，我就想：“去他的，我们现在就搞！”你知道那个梗吗？“We do it live!（我们现场直播！）”所以我开了两个窗口上Twitter，一个窗口我点了重命名，另一个窗口我刚创建完新账号，结果旧账号（或者是相关的名字）已经被“加密货币托儿/机器人”（Cryptoshills/shells）给抢注了。哇。我不知道，他们好像有脚本，早就等着了。
[主持人]: 我们应该帮你联系X（Twitter）团队的，他们可以在后台处理的。
[Peter]: 也就是下次吧，希望没有下次了。噢，其实他们（Twitter团队）很棒，立刻帮我搞定了，我们解决得很快。但在那20分钟里……呃，是的，确实不太顺利。
[主持人]: 嗯，希望你的心态是：“如果我想要钱，我就去融个十亿美元了”，对吧,。
这是为您整理的访谈第七章节。本章节聚焦于硬件选择（本地vs云端）以及Peter对未来软件生态的激进预测——App将逐渐消亡，取而代之的是“超个性化”的个人软件。
📝 本节摘要：
话题转向硬件配置，Peter笑称他的Agent是个“有点娇气的公主”，因此他没有使用Mac Mini，而是购买了顶配的Mac Studio来运行本地模型。他认为单台机器甚至不够，未来可能需要集群。
随后，Peter提出了对未来软件形态的激进预测：大部分App将“消融”为API。他以MyFitnessPal为例，指出Agent可以直接通过照片分析食物热量并调整健身计划，无需通过App界面。
他还分享了一个维也纳设计代理公司的案例，这些不懂代码的人利用他的工具构建了25个内部Web服务。Peter认为，这标志着“超个性化软件”（Hyper-personalized software）时代的到来——用户不再订阅功能受限的SaaS服务，而是通过自然语言构建完全贴合自身需求的免费软件。
[原文] [Host]: all right so I'd sell it for more than that yeah do you own a Mac Mini everyone wants to know do you own a Mac Mini what do you think of Mac Minis
[译文] [主持人]: 好吧，如果是我的话卖价肯定不止那个数。对了，你有一台Mac Mini吗？大家都想知道，你有一台Mac Mini吗？你觉得Mac Mini怎么样？
[原文] [Peter]: um my agent is a little bit of a princess he doesn't do me he does more studios okay you want some horses he got the He got the the 512 maxed out everything cuz cuz I wanted to like mess around with local models as well so like I I I can run Miniax 21 which is uh I would say is is the best the best uh open source model right now although Ki just came out and I haven't had a chance to try it yet so so we'll see how that goes but yeah one machine is not enough for it it's not fun you probably need two or three and I kind of want to wait until Apple does a new release but it's still fun to like to like see the potential that Yeah there's a there is a future where this could actually work yeah
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，我的Agent有点像个“公主”（指娇气、要求高），它不怎么用Mac Mini，它更多是用Mac Studio。好吧，你想要大马力是吧。它用的是512GB内存、所有配置拉满的那种，因为我想折腾一下本地模型。所以我可以运行Miniax 21（注：原文听译可能指Mixtral或其他特定开源模型），我认为它是目前最好的开源模型。虽然Ki（注：可能指Qwen或Kai）刚出来，我还没机会试，所以还得走着瞧。但是，是的，一台机器是不够的，那样不好玩，你可能需要两三台。我有点想等Apple发新品，但看到这种潜力还是很有趣的。是的，有一个未来，这种（本地运行）模式是真正行得通的。
[原文] [Host]: well uh if if the if the Mac Mini trend keeps going Apple from from what we've seen sells like between a quarter million to like 700,000 a year it's very possible that you'll be responsible for selling them out so hopefully they send you some free ones as a as a thank you yeah so yeah I mean zooming out do you how much of this do you think is going to remain hacker culture running your own hardware uh and eventually people will move to cloud hosting one-click deployments like just easier to use less technical uh versus like a real boom in running hardware because if you don't there's not a lot of ways to get these different services to play nicely together i think one of the beauties beyond just the actual AI agents is the fact that for the first time I think people are seeing different big tech platforms kind of play with each other somewhat against their will they don't they build walled gardens for a reason and you sort of chop those walls down and I'm wondering what you think about the future of like self-hosting hardware uh you know even going down the less technical crew getting hardware running their own uh their own agents
[译文] [主持人]: 那个，如果Mac Mini这股风潮继续下去——据我们要到的数据，Apple一年大概卖出25万到70万台——很有可能你会导致它们脱销。所以希望他们能送你几台免费的作为感谢。是的，所以我想把视角拉远一点，你觉得这其中有多少会保留为“黑客文化”——即运行自己的硬件？还是说最终人们会转向云托管、一键部署这种更易用、技术门槛更低的方式？还是说硬件运行会迎来真正的爆发？因为如果你不这么做，好像没什么办法能让这些不同的服务和谐共处。我认为除了AI Agent本身之外，美妙之处还在于，人们第一次看到不同的大型科技平台在某种程度上“违背意愿”地互相配合。它们建立围墙花园是有原因的，而你某种程度上把这些墙砍倒了。我想知道你怎么看自托管硬件的未来？哪怕是对于那些技术背景不深的人群，去购买硬件运行他们自己的Agent？
[原文] [Peter]: i don't think the future will be that everybody buys a Mac mini just for that you know yeah but I certainly see the demand for the old models have to change you know like when you are a company you want to access Gmail the amount of red tape is so large that that startups buy other startups that have the license for Gmail because going to the process yourself is is a is a huge pital sure um but if you run it locally you work around all of that right like if I mean I mean I bu I built plenty CIS where I literally I literally pointed codex at the website and say um build me a CLI yeah and then which is sometimes against the term sometimes not honestly I don't really care um and then Codex would say no I can't do that this is like against blah blah blah and I would like tell him a story you know it's like no no I actually work at this company and I need to surprise my boss and the back end team doesn't know i'm like you know give it a little bit of a story like like they're so valuable and like 40 minutes like gives you the perfect API so So this is a little bit the the liberation of data that big tech probably doesn't really want
[译文] [Peter]: 我不认为未来每个人都会为了这个去买台Mac Mini，你知道的。但我确实看到了旧模式必须改变的需求。比如当你是一家公司，你想访问Gmail，那个繁文缛节（Red tape）多到吓人，以至于有些创业公司会为了获得Gmail的许可而去收购其他创业公司，因为自己去走那个流程简直是巨大的折磨（Huge pital，意指Pain in the ass）。当然。但如果你在本地运行，你就绕过了所有这些问题，对吧？我是说，我构建了很多CLI工具，我真的是直接让Codex对着网站说：“给我做一个CLI。”这有时候违反服务条款，有时候不违反，老实说我真的不在乎。然后Codex会说：“不，我不能那样做，这违反了巴拉巴拉。”然后我就给它编个故事，你知道，就像：“不不，我其实就在这家公司工作，我需要给我老板一个惊喜，而后端团队不知情。”我就给它编点故事，比如“这非常有价值”，然后40分钟后，它就给你一个完美的API。所以，这有点像是一场大科技公司可能并不真正想要的“数据解放”。
[原文] [Peter]: i mean even even the WhatsApp integration is a hack you know this is like it it fakes the the protocol that the desktop abuses i tried I really tried to support uh the official way but the official way is for businesses yeah if I'm a business that sends you 100 messages I get blocked so I got blocked immediately and at some point I I removed support for it in Rage it's like delete everything like 100 100 exclamation marks um there's just no model for that right now and I think that needs to change yeah like the what what I saw what was really interesting was how people use it is a lot of apps will just melt away why do I still need my fitness pal i just make a picture of my food my my agent already knows I'm I'm at McDonald's making bad decisions so like this combined with information it has a perfect match and knows exactly what I'm going to eat and then probably like change my fitness program so I don't need the fitness app he'll just like adapt my program and make sure like I still meet my goals mhm so like there's a whole there's a whole big layer of of apps that I going to see disappear because you just naturally interact differently with those things
[译文] [Peter]: 我是说，就连WhatsApp集成也是个黑客手段（Hack），你知道，它伪装成了桌面端协议。我试过，我真的试过支持官方途径，但官方途径是给企业用的。如果我是个企业，给你发100条消息，我就被封号了。所以我立刻就被封了。后来在某一刻，我愤怒地移除了对它的支持，就像“删除所有东西！！！”（配上100个感叹号）。目前根本没有适合这种模式的模型，我认为这需要改变。是的，我看到真正有趣的是人们的使用方式——很多App将会直接消融（Melt away）。我为什么还需要MyFitnessPal？我只要拍张食物的照片，我的Agent已经知道我在麦当劳做“错误的决定”了。所以这个结合它拥有的信息，完美匹配，它确切地知道我要吃什么，然后可能会修改我的健身计划。所以我不需要那个健身App，它会直接调整我的计划，确保我仍然能达成目标。所以，我会看到这一大层App将会消失，因为你与这些事物的交互方式自然而然地改变了。
[原文] [Host]: mhm like most apps will be reduced to API and then the question is do you still need the API if I can just save it somewhere else do you think like do you think it'll be a generational thing do you think that uh that uh non-technical people will you know get over the hump and start running this for that experience specifically
[译文] [主持人]: 嗯，就像大多数App会退化为API。然后问题就变成了，如果我可以把它存在别的地方，我还真的需要那个API吗？你觉得这会是一代人的事情吗？你觉得非技术人员能跨过这个门槛，专门为了这种体验去运行它吗？
[原文] [Peter]: i I just I just came from a meetup uh the agent I know was in Vienna and I met someone who was like a a design agency but they never coded and he was like yeah he discovered me early in in December he started using Maltbot yes we we going to we're going to we're going to manage eventually don't don't worry we'll say it thousands of times this year I'm sure so we will Multibbot i should say Multibbot that's cute um and and he was like "Yeah we have 25 web services now we just build internal tools for whatever we need." And like has no clue he has no clue how Cody works he just like uses Telegram and and like just talks to his agent and his agent builds stuff so So there's there's this whole shift of you don't you don't subscribe to random startups anymore that that build like this column subset of what you need you just have your own hyperpersonalized software that solves exactly your problem and it's also free yeah so and and and non-technical people do that you know because it just comes so naturally you just you just talk your problem and then the thing builds what you need
[译文] [Peter]: 我刚参加完维也纳的一个聚会，Agent聚会。我遇到一个人，他是做设计代理的，但他们从不写代码。他说他在十二月初发现了我，开始使用Maltbot——是的，我们最终会适应这个新名字的，别担心，我相信今年我们会说上几千遍。Multibot，我应该说Multibot，挺可爱的。然后他说：“是的，我们现在有25个Web服务，只要我们需要什么，我们就构建内部工具。”但他完全不知道代码（Cody）是怎么运作的，他只是用Telegram，跟他的Agent说话，然后他的Agent就构建东西。所以，这不仅是一个转变——你不再订阅那些随机的初创公司的服务了，那些公司只提供你需要的功能的一个小子集；相反，你拥有了自己的“超个性化软件”（Hyper-personalized software），它能确切地解决你的问题，而且还是免费的。是的，连非技术人员都在这么做，因为这太自然了，你只要说出你的问题，那东西就会构建你需要的一切。
这是为您整理的访谈第八章节（最终章）。本章节聚焦于Peter在面对突如其来的安全挑战时的思考，以及他对项目未来走向的非营利性规划。
📝 本节摘要：
在访谈的最后部分，Peter谈到了成名后的烦恼：原本为了自用（Trusted）构建的工具被放在了公共网络上（Untrusted），导致他收到大量安全研究员的邮件报告。他坦承目前整个系统在安全层面是“破碎的”，作为唯一的开发者，他无法独自处理海量的安全隐患，特别是“提示注入”（Prompt Injection）这一尚未解决的行业难题。
面对资本的疯狂追逐，Peter明确表示与其开公司，他更倾向于成立非营利基金会，这一决定让“10,000个风投气得砸墙”。他认为代码本身的价值在降低，重要的是创意和社区关注度。最后，他向社区发出呼吁，寻找真正的维护者（Maintainers）来帮助分担工作，而不仅仅是给他“扔活儿”，因为他希望这个项目能比他的个人生涯更长久（Outlive him）。
[原文] [Host]: what are you doing tomorrow
[译文] [主持人]: 你明天打算做什么？
[原文] [Peter]: um there's a lot of emails from security researchers right now you know you know the thing is I built this for fun for me to use one-on-one on WhatsApp or Telegram the whole thing with Discord was like Edit but the model was that you trust the people that are in there now people use it for untrusted experiences yeah they use like the the little the little web app that I have that is that was meant for debugging they put it on the open internet so like all the thread models that I didn't care about are now there because people use it differently and I'm I'm being bombarded there's like some stuff that's valid some stuff that I just never cared about that is technically valid but that's not how I use it mhm
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，现在有一大堆来自安全研究员的邮件。你知道，问题在于我做这个是为了好玩，是为了让我自己在WhatsApp或Telegram上一对一使用的。Discord那部分有点像是额外的编辑功能，但原本的模型假设是你信任里面的人。而现在人们把它用于不可信的场景。是的，他们使用我那个原本只用于调试的小型Web应用，把它放到了开放互联网上。所以，所有那些我原本不在乎的“威胁模型”（Thread models，口误或转写错误，应为Threat models）现在都出现了，因为人们的使用方式不同了。我被轰炸了，有些问题是合理的，有些在技术上是合理的但我从未在意过，因为我也不是那样用的。嗯哼。
[原文] [Peter]: um I don't know how to deal with that yet because it's the whole system is broken you know like I I'm like one guy i do this for fun and you expect me to sift through 100 security uh things for use cases that I don't really care about so we'll see we'll see how it goes um luckily I I'm starting to build up a team there's definitely people that do care a lot about this mhm so I would say this is going to become a very secure product eventually because right now the whole world is like pulling it apart and if you're honest this is this is all by coded you know uh like there's there's there's quite some aentic engineering in it but ultimately I wanted to build something to show people anyway not a finished product from enterprise company yeah
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，我还不知道该怎么处理这个，因为整个系统都是破碎的（broken）。你知道，我就只有一个人，我做这个是为了好玩，而你却期望我去筛选（sift，原文转写为shift）100个安全问题，针对那些我根本不在乎的使用案例。所以走着瞧吧，看情况如何。幸运的是，我开始组建团队了，确实有人非常关心这方面。嗯，所以我认为这最终会成为一个非常安全的产品，因为现在全世界都在“拆解”它。而且如果你老实说，这全都是……你知道，虽然里面有不少“代理工程”（Agentic engineering），但归根结底，我只是想造个东西展示给人们看，而不是做一个来自企业级公司的成品。
[原文] [Peter]: and and I would I would even say like I don't know if any company would touch it because we just haven't solved some things like prompt injection is not solved there is there is absolute risk and and I I tried to make it very clear in in on the website and even when you started you have to like please read this document it's like with with great power becomes great responsibility and my early users they understood there was a lot there's a lot of AI researchers in there as well that yeah it's not perfect cannot be done perfect yet um I I would say this will accelerate research to make it better because now you have the demand and we need to figure out a way how we can build something that works for everyone
[译文] [Peter]: 而且我会说，我不知道是否有公司敢碰它，因为我们还没有解决某些问题，比如“提示注入”（Prompt injection）还没解决。这存在绝对的风险。我试着在网站上甚至当你启动时讲得很清楚，你必须阅读这份文档，就像“能力越大，责任越大”。我的早期用户他们理解这一点，其中也有很多AI研究人员，这还不完美，目前还做不到完美。嗯，但我认为这将加速让它变好的研究，因为现在有了需求，我们需要找出一个方法来构建对每个人都有效的东西。
[原文] [Peter]: um but yeah right now I'm I'm working on making this a community it it it should be bigger than me it also I need help it it is way too much work like I can only I can only go so much without sleep
[译文] [Peter]: 嗯，不过是的，现在我正致力于把它变成一个社区。它应该比我个人更宏大。而且我也需要帮助，工作量实在太大了，我不睡觉也只能干这么多了。
[原文] [Host]: um so so is any part of you want to form an actual company that then you know contributes to the open source project uh but solves some of these problems that uh are going to require you know a bunch of people that presumably would need a salary in order to commit all their time to this or do you want to keep it you know just a bunch of hackers forever
[译文] [主持人]: 嗯，那么你有没有想过成立一家真正的公司？你知道，那样可以为开源项目做贡献，但也能解决其中一些问题，毕竟这需要一帮人，而他们大概需要薪水才能全职投入到这里。还是说你想让它永远只是一群黑客的聚集地？
[原文] [Peter]: i think instead of a company I would much rather consider a foundation or like something that is nonprofit um I haven't made up my mind yet
[译文] [Peter]: 我想比起公司，我更愿意考虑成立一个基金会，或者某种非营利组织。嗯，我还没下定决心。
[原文] [Host]: there was 10,000 10,000 VCs just punched a hole in the wall actually I don't know some people have had a good track record investing in nonprofits over the last That's true 10 years
[译文] [主持人]: 刚才有10,000个风投（VCs）气得把墙都砸穿了。不过也是，我不清楚，过去10年里有些人投资非营利组织的记录其实也不错。这倒是真的。
[原文] [Host]: uh how do you think about open- source licensing what what what are you picking now are you switching do you have any plans to change the license how do you think about someone just taking this and selling it
[译文] [主持人]: 呃，你怎么看待开源许可？你现在选的是什么？你会换吗？你有计划更改许可证吗？你怎么看待有人直接拿走这个并把它卖掉？
[原文] [Peter]: this will happen this will totally happen um I would say the premise against it is let's make open source so good that there's not a lot of space for people to like convert it and make it their own thing sure but you know ultimately it's it's a trade-off i wanted to I wanted it to be accessible and free
[译文] [Peter]: 这会发生的，这绝对会发生的。嗯，我会说，应对它的前提是：让我们把开源版本做得足够好，好到让别人没有什么空间去改造它并把它变成自己的私有物。当然，但你知道归根结底这是一种权衡。我希望它是可获取的，并且是免费的。
[原文] [Host]: you pick MIT or something like that
[译文] [主持人]: 你选的是MIT协议还是类似的？
[原文] [Peter]: yes that will get you people that that that sell it but ultimately it doesn't even matter that much you know code is code is not worth that much anymore it's you could you could you could just delete that and then and then build it again in months it's it's much more the idea and the eyeballs uh and maybe the brand that actually has value so let them
[译文] [Peter]: 是的。这确实会导致有人拿去卖，但归根结底这其实没那么重要。你知道，代码……代码如今已经没那么值钱了。你可以直接删掉它，然后在几个月内重新写出来。真正有价值的更多是那个点子（Idea）和关注度（Eyeballs），或许还有品牌。所以，随他们去吧。
[原文] [Host]: you are already a cult hero yeah the chat's going crazy for you everyone loves you this is uh one of the most refreshing and unique interviews we've ever had on the For sure for sure we'll let you get some sleep uh thank you so much for hopping on the show yeah anything else you want to share before you jump off
[译文] [主持人]: 你已经是一个偶像级的英雄了。是的，聊天室为你疯狂了，大家都爱你。这绝对是我们做过的最令人耳目一新、最独特的访谈之一。确实如此，确实如此。我们会放你去睡觉的。呃，非常感谢你来参加节目。是的，在你下线之前还有什么想分享的吗？
[原文] [Peter]: uh yes i would love to have maintainers like if you if you love open source if you have experience if you love shifting to security reports uh or or if you love taking software apart but then also help and not just like throw work at me because I'm like at my limit um email me um I want this to outlift me mhm uh this I think this is too cool to to to let it go to rot
[译文] [Peter]: 呃，有的。我很希望能有维护者（Maintainers）。如果你热爱开源，如果你有经验，如果你喜欢筛选（shifting，应为sifting）安全报告，呃，或者如果你喜欢拆解软件——但前提是要真的来帮忙，而不是只把活儿扔给我，因为我已经到极限了。嗯，给我发邮件。我希望这个项目能比我活得更久（outlift me，应为outlive me）。嗯哼，我觉得这太酷了，不能让它烂掉。
[原文] [Host]: and it's good people incredible are you going to ship that product you had in the in the chamber you said there was one you were close or you going to lock in on this
[译文] [主持人]: 真是好人，不可思议。你会发布你那个还在“枪膛”里的产品吗？你之前说有一个快做好了，还是说你会专注于这一个？
[原文] [Peter]: that's that's more hobby i don't know no I I have some other ideas in my head of um what something like this could become and it doesn't need to be this but I don't want to share too much
[译文] [Peter]: 那个更多是兴趣爱好。我不知道，不。我脑子里还有一些其他的想法，关于这种东西可能会演变成什么，它不一定非得是现在这个样子。但我不想透露太多。
[原文] [Host]: yeah no problem come back on the show when you when you launch that we'd love to have you purely for the love of the game the love of the game you're an absolute legend it was great hanging Peter thanks so much let's get some sleep get some sleep we'll talk to you soon goodbye founder Moon what a legend
[译文] [主持人]: 是的，没问题。等你发布那个的时候再回来上节目，我们很乐意邀请你。纯粹为了对游戏的热爱。对游戏的热爱。你绝对是个传奇。很高兴和你聊天，Peter。非常感谢。去睡吧，去睡吧。回头聊，再见。“创始人模式”（Founder Moon/Mode），真是个传奇。