章节 1：Claude Code 与营销团队的替代危机

📝 本节摘要：

Eric 开场即抛出重磅话题，探讨 Claude Code 如何取代营销团队。他分享了一个亲身案例：为了重新发布 SEO 产品 ClickFlow，他利用 Claude Code 独立完成了一份通常需要花费 2-3 万美元才能外包的“进入市场（Go-To-Market）”计划。这套计划包含了邮件漏斗、着陆页文案等，完成度高达 95% 且毫无“AI味”。由此，Eric 引用英伟达 CEO 黄仁勋的观点，提出了一个尖锐的问题：如果 AI 能做到这种程度，大多数普通营销人员的未来在哪里？

[原文] [Eric]: all right Neil let me tell you this okay let me tell you how cloud code will replace your marketing team i'm going to give you some examples here because I've been on this Cloud Code train one of our mutual friends he messaged me every day now he's like I wish I could just replace everyone he's like these 400 people gone all these people going to be fired soon right and I'm just like I ran this cuz we we just relaunched Clickflow today remember the the SEO product that we had so I wanted a go-to market plan for ClickFlow but you know how much a go to market plan would typically cost if you have someone that's writing your email funnels like onboarding emails abandoned emails um you know um churn save and all these emails right the the um the landing page copy all these things you're probably paying a go to market person who's good maybe 20 to 30 grand for this right so at minimum so I had I basically had it interview me i said "Here's what I'm trying to do here's what the goals for this thing are."

[译文] [Eric]: 好了 Neil，让我跟你说这个，好吗，让我告诉你 Claude Code（原文误识别为 Cloud Code）将如何取代你的营销团队。我要给你一些例子，因为我已经上了这趟 Claude Code 的车了。我们要好的一个朋友，他现在每天都发信息给我，他说：“我真希望能把所有人都换掉。”他说：“这400人都得走，这些人很快都要被炒鱿鱼了，对吧？” 我当时就想，我也试运行了一下，因为我们今天刚刚重新发布了 ClickFlow，记得吗，就是我们以前那个 SEO 产品。所以我想要一份 ClickFlow 的“进入市场计划（Go-to-market plan）”。但是你知道一份进入市场计划通常要花多少钱吗？如果你找人来写你的邮件漏斗（Email Funnels），比如用户引导邮件（Onboarding emails）、弃单挽回邮件（Abandoned emails）、嗯，你知道，防止流失邮件（Churn save）以及所有这些邮件，对吧，还有着陆页文案（Landing page copy）所有这些东西。你如果不花个大概 2万到3万美金，是请不到一个优秀的负责进入市场的人的，对吧，这还是最低标准。所以我基本上是让它（AI）来面试我。我说：“这是我想做的事情，这是这个项目的目标。”

[原文] [Eric]: And it asked me like 10 questions and it I use cloud code to spit this out and it put it in these neat folders okay and I I read through the onboarding emails alt abandoned cart all these things it basically was 95% there it doesn't even look like AI copy even the sales emails the pre-sale emails were good i'm like "Oh my god." So the the prompt I put out to X was like "If I can create this go to market plan quickly like what happens to not all marketers what happens to most marketers right?" And I just threw this this this out there because it's like you still need people to do this stuff right you but you need you need very high agency people to manage these things and I was like that is just one example where I'm just like you know the coders have already seen the light right they've already seen that Jensen said this Jensen Huang from Nvidia he was like you know if people are still coding he was like I would prefer my engineers don't code so they can work on higher leverage things right and so my question is you know what happens to most marketers

[译文] [Eric]: 然后它问了我大概10个问题，我就用 Claude Code 把这些东西吐了出来，它把文件放在了整洁的文件夹里，好吗。我通读了引导邮件、弃单挽回（Abandoned cart）以及所有这些东西，它基本上已经完成了95%。它看起来甚至不像 AI 写的文案，即使是销售邮件、预售邮件都很棒，我当时就想：“天啊。” 所以我在 X（推特）上发的那个提示（Prompt）是：“如果我能这么快地创建这个进入市场计划，那么并非所有营销人员，而是大多数营销人员会发生什么，对吧？” 我把这个抛出来是因为，确实还是需要人来做这些事的，对吧，但你需要的是非常具有“高能动性（High Agency）”的人来管理这些事情。我觉得这只是一个例子，我就觉得，你知道程序员们已经看到了曙光，对吧？他们已经看到 Jensen 说的话了，英伟达的黄仁勋（Jensen Huang），他说，你知道，如果人们还在写代码……他说：“我宁愿我的工程师不写代码，这样他们可以从事更高杠杆（Higher Leverage）的工作，对吧？” 所以我的问题是，你知道，大多数营销人员将会面临什么？

章节 2：资深与初级：AI 时代的优胜劣汰

📝 本节摘要：

Eric 借由一位企业家朋友的招聘策略引出话题：该朋友只招募资深工程师，因为他们能独立解决问题，而在 AI 的加持下，这种“单兵作战”的效率被无限放大，从而不再需要庞大的团队。Eric 将这一逻辑延伸至市场营销领域，以自己的联合创始人 Mike Camo 为例，讲述了 Mike 如何利用 AI 优化销售邮件。然而 Eric 指出，虽然 AI 能提供很好的思路，但初级营销人员往往直接使用 AI 生成的文案，这些内容通常充斥着废话、过多的破折号，缺乏权威感，很容易被识破。结论是：AI 将迅速淘汰初级人员，但对于能够驾驭它的资深与中级人才来说，则是强大的增效工具。

[原文] [Eric]: so before I answer that question I'm going to give you the code example and this is a little bit tangent but then I'll answer the marketing one I was talking to he yesterday and we're talking about you know all these apps apps right like claude and all this kind of stuff that helps engineers and people just be more efficient and he was telling me something interesting he's chosen historically as an entrepreneur to mainly only hire senior level uh engineers he doesn't like dealing with junior level or midlevel as much so he prefers senior level why you should explain why and the reason being is he finds it much more efficient use of his time they can just figure things out on their own you need less of them and now with AI he's just like they're so much more efficient you don't need big teams it's not about just hiring tons of engineers it's about hiring the best ones and then giving them these tools and letting them go

[译文] [Eric]: 所以在回答那个问题之前，我要给你举个代码的例子，这稍微有点跑题（tangent），但我之后会回答关于市场营销的问题。昨天我和他聊天，我们谈到了所有的这些应用，比如 Claude 之类的东西，它们能帮助工程师和人们变得更高效。他告诉我一件有趣的事，作为一个企业家，他历史上一直选择主要只雇佣资深级别（senior level）的工程师。他不怎么喜欢和初级（junior level）或中级（midlevel）的人打交道，所以他更喜欢资深人士。为什么呢？你应该解释一下原因。原因在于，他发现这能更高效地利用他的时间，他们可以自己解决问题，你需要的这种人更少。而现在有了 AI，他说他们变得更加高效了，你不需要庞大的团队。这不再是关于雇佣成吨的工程师，而是关于雇佣最优秀的人，然后给他们这些工具，让他们放手去干。

[原文] [Eric]: and the reason I bring up this tangent I think marketing is going to be somewhere uh somewhat similar so I'll give you an example between me and my co-founder Mike Camo he understands marketing that's not his specialty but would you he's a pretty good marketer but would you agree he's really good at sales he's excellent sales persuasion and figuring out what to say to convince people yes so sometimes when I'm writing out emails for partnerships and stuff like that I will send it to Mike because all cold email still to this day i don't know if I told you I probably send at least one cold email a day it's on my like to-do every day i try to send a minimum one cold email or I don't go to sleep uhhuh but most of it's for partnerships or maybe sometimes a deal uh no no this is for revenue generation so it could be partnering with a company that could drive revenue or it could be pitching a company and trying to get them as a customer yeah got it those are usually the main two

[译文] [Eric]: 我之所以提起这个题外话，是因为我认为市场营销也会发生某种类似的转变。我给你举个我和我的联合创始人 Mike Camo 之间的例子。他懂市场营销，虽然那不是他的专长，但你是否同意，他是个相当不错的营销人，但他真正擅长的是销售？他非常擅长销售说服，知道说什么能说服别人。是的。所以有时候当我在写合作之类的邮件时，我会发给 Mike。因为所有的冷邮件（cold email），直到今天，我不知道我有没有告诉过你，我大概每天至少发一封冷邮件。这是我每天待办事项里的一项，我尽量每天至少发一封，否则我就不睡觉。（嗯哼）。但这主要是为了合作伙伴关系，或者有时是为了交易……不不，这是为了创收（revenue generation），所以可能是与一家能带来收入的公司合作，或者是向一家公司推销，试图让他们成为客户。是的，明白了，这通常是主要的两种情况。

[原文] [Eric]: so I send some of my emails to Mike when they're really important and I know the person probably has a high likelihood of responding and it's a big company like let's call it you know 20 30 50 100 multund billion even trillion and I know the person who's in charge i know they're probably going to respond i'll have him review it and fine tune it he loves taking everything and running it through AI chad GPT Grog you name it he tries them all how many times do you think I use his email copy when he modifies mine through AI through a I don't You're you're a really picky person i maybe 50% of the time uh close but in a different way okay i never really use any of his copy but AI sometimes words things in a different way or adds another point and then I may take that I'll build on it yeah so you're really using it to help form or give you ideas like you're pulling ideas from it and you're building on those yes

[译文] [Eric]: 所以当有些邮件非常重要，而且我知道对方回复的可能性很高，且是大公司——比如，你知道的，200亿、300亿、500亿、1000亿甚至万亿级别的公司——而且我认识负责人，我知道他们可能会回复，我就把邮件发给 Mike。我会让他审阅并微调一下。他喜欢把所有东西都拿去跑一遍 AI，ChatGPT、Grok，凡是你能叫出名字的他都试过。你猜我有多少次用了他经过 AI 修改后的邮件文案？

[Neil]: 我不……你是个非常挑剔的人，我觉得大概 50% 的时候吧？

[Eric]: 接近了，但方式不同。好吧，我其实从来没有真正用过他的文案，但 AI 有时会用不同的方式措辞，或者增加一个新的观点，然后我可能会采纳那个点，在此基础上进行构建。

[Neil]: 是的，所以你真的是在利用它来帮助成型或者提供思路，就像你是从里面提取点子，然后在这些点子上进行构建。

[Eric]: 是的。

[原文] [Eric]: the problem with AI that I see right now in marketing and junior level marketers and entry-level marketers and maybe some mid-level marketers what they don't understand and certain things like copywriting and that's an easy one to use because everyone uses AI for textbased copy or a lot of people do it makes crap too wordy it adds in too many dashes and fluff it tries to sell you sometimes too hard instead of just being very direct and showing that I'm coming from a place of authority or confidence or people should just want my product and here's why i found that it does a terrible job in copywriting a lot of junior people send me stuff in mid-level and they don't know i'm not talking about people in my company because they've learned their lesson by now i'm talking about from external people and I can tell it's written by AI and they don't know that I know and it's just so obvious for me and I'm like dude this is just crap i do think it'll replace the junior level people really much more easily i don't see AI replacing the high level like people like you and me um and I don't see it replacing the good mid-level people i think it just adds to it

[译文] [Eric]: 我目前在市场营销以及初级（junior level）营销人员、入门级（entry-level）营销人员，甚至一些中级（mid-level）营销人员使用 AI 时看到的问题是，他们不理解某些东西，比如文案写作（copywriting）。这是一个很容易举的例子，因为每个人都在用 AI 写文本，或者说很多人在用。它写出来的东西很烂（crap），太啰嗦（wordy），加了太多的破折号和废话（fluff）。它有时推销得太用力了，而不是直接了当，展示出我是站在权威或自信的立场上，或者人们本身就应该想要我的产品，以及为什么。我发现它在文案写作方面做得非常糟糕。很多初级人员和中级人员发给我东西——他们不知道……我不是在说我公司里的人，因为他们现在已经吸取教训了，我说的是外部人员——我能看出来那是 AI 写的，而他们不知道我已经看出来了。这对我来说太明显了，我就想：“老兄，这简直就是垃圾。” 我确实认为它会非常容易地取代初级人员。我不认为 AI 会取代高水平（high level）的人，比如像你和我这样的人，嗯，我也不认为它会取代优秀的中级人员，我认为它只是如虎添翼（adds to it）。

章节 3：定义“高能动性”人才与年度回顾

📝 本节摘要：

Neil 提议对比 Eric 一年前与现在在营销工作中的 AI 使用差异，以展示进化的全貌。Eric 在回答前，先对上一节“替代危机”的话题进行了总结性补充：他认为具有“高能动性（High Agency）”的人永远不会被取代。他和 Neil 达成共识，所谓的“好员工”核心在于拥有强烈的“行动偏好（Bias to Action）”。随后，Eric 回顾了一年前（他称为“2025年的 Eric”）的使用场景：那时没有 Claude Code，他主要将 ChatGPT 用作心理治疗师、卡路里计算器，或是用来扫描法律文档摘要。虽然也用于写文案，但他坦言那时的 AI 文案痕迹过重，充满了破折号，很容易被识破。

[原文] [Neil]: like you know I think what we should talk about next is you've used AI for a year two years heavily I would say a year really heavily like super heavily maybe a year I would say I've been pretty big on it yeah let's just go a year heavily but pretty heavily already the last two three years okay so I want to ask you something and I want you to really describe it go and describe your day in detail not the cold plunges I get the screenshots from you sometimes in the morning or screenshots to you that's weird guys I posted Instagram stories oh yeah yeah that's a sauna and you'll put like a time on there like 5 a.m or 5:05 or what yeah yeah I like that stuff okay which I actually think is really good for you at least the articles you sent me show it is um talk about how your life used to be on a daily basis okay like really daily basis as a marketer not running your company but what you would do in marketing and now break down what your life is in a daily basis now from a marketing aspect a year later not the in between but that way we can see the drastic difference

[译文] [Neil]: 你知道，我觉得我们接下来应该谈谈这个：你已经重度使用 AI 一两年了。我会说有一年是非常重度地使用，超级重度。可能有一年我会说我非常依赖它。是的，我们就说重度使用了一年，但在过去两三年里已经相当重度了。好，我想问你一件事，我希望你真的描述一下，去详细描述你的一天。不是冷水浴（cold plunges），我有时早上会收到你的截图，或者发给你的截图，这也太奇怪了伙计们，我发的是 Instagram Stories。噢对对，那是桑拿，你会把时间放在上面，比如凌晨5点或5:05之类的。是的是的，我喜欢那些东西。好吧，其实我觉得那对你真的很好，至少你发给我的文章是这么显示的。嗯，谈谈你在日常基础上以前的生活是怎样的，好吗，真的是作为营销人员的日常，不是经营你的公司，而是你在市场营销方面会做什么。然后拆解一下你现在在日常基础上的生活，从营销的角度来看，一年后是怎样的。不要中间的过程，这样我们可以看到巨大的差异。

[原文] [Eric]: yeah okay so this is this is good because the a year ago we had the fires going on so it's a nice starting off point minus the fires eric is not saying I'm not saying the fires were good i'm just saying I just remember that um so and thank you for that um one thing before I answer Neil so just to just to kind of close the loop on how cloud cloud code can replace your marketing team what we're really saying is high agency people will never be replaced and what it really comes down to when you say good my definition of good ultimately comes down to someone who has a bias to action cuz if you think of all the good people you work with like you know in the past you would say execute exe quick executor fast exeutor right everything comes down to bias to action Mike strong bias to action right anybody you worked with that you worked with for a while I would say has had that strong bias to action correct yes that's what we really mean by good and so anybody that has strong bias to action you're not going to get replaced you're going to be fine

[译文] [Eric]: 是的，好吧，这很好，因为一年前我们那边发生了火灾，所以这是一个很好的起点——除了火灾的部分。Eric 不是说火灾是好事，我只是说我记得那个。嗯，所以，谢谢你提这个。嗯，在回答之前有一件事，Neil，为了给“Claude Code（原文误识别为 Cloud Code）如何取代你的营销团队”这个话题收个尾：我们真正想表达的是，具有“高能动性（High Agency）”的人永远不会被取代。归根结底，当你谈论“好”的时候，我对“好”的定义最终归结为一个人是否有“行动偏好（Bias to Action）”。因为如果你回想所有你共事过的优秀人才，比如你知道在过去你会说“执行力强”、“快速执行者”，对吧？一切都归结为行动偏好。Mike 有很强的行动偏好，对吧？任何你共事过一段时间的人，我会说都有那种强烈的行动偏好。正确。是的，这就是我们所说的“好”的真正含义。所以任何拥有强烈行动偏好的人，你都不会被取代，你会没事的。

[原文] [Eric]: okay so let me ask you a question so a year ago let me think about this so when I was using AI a year ago there was no cloud code i was mainly using it to because uh Chat GB had recently introduced memory and so I was going through like a like a relationship thing okay so I was constantly using it as my therapist at the time because I had memory right i was using it for advice um I was using for basic use sorry can we slow back and go back because I missed like half of it i didn't understand what you were saying okay you were saying there was no cloud code a year ago and then you started using it for what okay let me back up so a year ago when I was using AI let's just call it 2025 Eric okay i was using AI mainly to use chat GPD for therapy okay i was using it to track my diet i was using it for calorie counts things like that very I would say rudimentary stuff

[译文] [Eric]: 好吧，那让我问你个问题……所以一年前，让我想想。当我一年前使用 AI 时，还没有 Claude Code。我主要用它是因为，呃，ChatGPT 刚刚推出了记忆功能。所以我当时正在经历一些感情上的事情，好吗，所以我当时不断地把它当作我的心理治疗师，因为它有记忆功能，对吧？我用它来寻求建议。嗯，我用它做基础用途……

[Neil]: 抱歉，我们能慢点回去吗？因为我漏掉了一半，我没听懂你在说什么。好吧，你说一年前没有 Claude Code，然后你开始用它做什么？

[Eric]: 好吧，让我倒回去。所以一年前当我使用 AI 时，我们就称之为“2025年的 Eric”吧，好吗？我使用 AI 主要是用 ChatGPT 做心理治疗，好吗。我用它来追踪我的饮食，我用它来计算卡路里之类的东西，非常，我会说是非常初级（rudimentary）的东西。

[原文] [Eric]: i might use it for copy and things like that um I might and as the year went by I started to use it for um helping me scan you know legal documents and things like just to give me the key takeaways and things like that right um from a marketing angle yes it helped me with copy but to your point the copy was very um there's a lot of m dashes you can just see the very first sentence it reads like an AI you know piece of content

[译文] [Eric]: 我可能会用它写文案之类的东西。嗯，我可能……随着这一年的过去，我开始用它来帮我扫描，你知道，法律文件之类的东西，只是为了给我提供关键摘要之类的，对吧。嗯，从营销角度来看，是的，它在文案上帮了我，但正如你所说，文案非常……有很多破折号（m-dashes）。你可以直接看到第一句话，读起来就像是 AI 生成的内容，你知道吧。

章节 4：Eric 的进化：从心理治疗助手到全栈开发

📝 本节摘要：

Eric 坦言，真正的转折点发生在 4-5 周前的假期，当时 Claude Code 的出现“解锁了一切”。他意识到自己现在可以构建任何软件，这种赋能感让他甚至产生了“成瘾性”——如果每天不花 2-3 小时写代码就会感到焦虑。在一段关于 B2B 营销工具 Carrot 的口播后，Neil 将话题拉回现实，要求 Eric 明确说明他目前对公司内部员工（特别是 SEO 团队）使用 AI 的具体要求，以便让听众获得可执行的建议。

[原文] [Eric]: um it wasn't until and I I'll be very honest it wasn't until actually four or five weeks ago Neil during the holiday break when claude code actually unlocked everything right maybe maybe I can hold off a little bit but um it was at that point where I was like oh my god I can build anything now

[译文] [Eric]: 嗯，直到……老实说，直到大概四五周前，Neil，在假期的时候，Claude Code 真正解锁了一切，对吧。也许我可以稍微等一下再说，但在那个时刻，我就像：“天啊，我现在可以构建任何东西了。”

[原文] [Eric]: um and that has what changed my workflow completely I would say in the last four or five weeks or ago now um I get anxiety if I don't get to use cloud code at least for a little bit for at least 2 three hours a day one hour like you think you're going to use for 30 minutes and ends up being like 3 to four hours

[译文] [Eric]: 嗯，这完全改变了我的工作流。我会说在过去四五周里，现在……如果我不能每天至少用一会儿 Claude Code（原文误识别为 Cloud Code），至少两三个小时，我会感到焦虑。哪怕你以为只用一个小时，或者你想着只用30分钟，结果最后往往变成了三四个小时。

[原文] [Eric]: if you're in B2B here's the deal LinkedIn accountbased marketing sucks but it doesn't have to with carrot it allows you to create personalized ads towards your customers and also personalized landing pages that align with the ads so you're going to have higher conversions and influence pipeline reporting to prove that your ABM works so if you want to learn more just go to carrot.ai and you can join the weight list again it's carrot k r o t.ai and we'll see you on the other side

[译文] [Eric]: 如果你是做 B2B 的，听好了：LinkedIn 的基于账户营销（Account-Based Marketing, ABM）很糟糕，但有了 Carrot 就不一样了。它允许你针对客户创建个性化广告，以及与广告相匹配的个性化着陆页，这样你就能获得更高的转化率和影响管道报告（Influence Pipeline Reporting），以证明你的 ABM 是有效的。所以如果你想了解更多，去 carrot.ai 加入候补名单（Waitlist），再次拼写一下是 carrot k-a-r-r-o-t.ai，我们在另一边见。

[原文] [Neil]: so so let's go back and let's make this a little bit actionable okay you do more than marketing but you do marketing yourself and you have employees who are marketers mhm what do you what are you expecting from an employee right now let's say someone doing SEO let's let's just use that example cuz that's where we both started using SEO what would you expect them to use AI on a daily basis for specifically

[译文] [Neil]: 所以，让我们回到话题，让这部分内容更具可操作性（Actionable），好吗？你做的不只是市场营销，但你自己也做营销，而且你有是营销人员的员工。（嗯哼）。你现在对员工有什么期望？比如说做 SEO 的人，我们就用这个例子，因为那是我们要么开始做 SEO 的地方。你会期望他们具体在日常工作中用 AI 做什么？

章节 5：团队实战：SEO 与内容营销的 AI 工作流

📝 本节摘要：

针对 Neil 提出的“员工如何具体使用 AI”的问题，Eric 详细拆解了自己 SEO 团队的真实工作流。他透露，团队目前约 80-90% 的工作时间都在使用名为 ClickFlow 的内部工具，这能为每位文案人员每月节省高达 90 小时。除了用于内容生成和内链优化外，团队还使用通用代理工具 Manis 结合 Similar Web 的数据，进行关键词研究和竞争对手分析。核心工作已从单纯的写作转变为策略性的内容更新、删除与整合。

[原文] [Eric]: yeah I'm going to answer this and I'm going to give you because now I'm thinking about specific use cases for me in the last year so I'll come back to that but this one I'll answer so our SEO team right now they're expected to use ClickFlow which is our internal SEO tool so I was actually sitting in an SEO meeting this week because I wanted to ask them about product feedback i'm like "Okay guys you guys are using this how much percent of the time?" Right they're like "Oh like 80 90% of the time." I'm like "Okay how much time are you saving with this this ClickFlow thing?"

[译文] [Eric]: 是的，我要回答这个问题，而且我要给你……因为我现在正在回想我过去一年的具体用例，所以我稍后会回到那个话题，但这一个我现在就回答。所以我们的 SEO 团队，现在他们被要求使用 ClickFlow，这是我们的内部 SEO 工具。我这周实际上参加了一个 SEO 会议，因为我想问他们关于产品的反馈。我就问：“好了伙计们，你们用这个东西的时间占比是多少？” 对吧？他们说：“噢，大概 80% 到 90% 的时间。” 我就问：“好吧，那用这个 ClickFlow 帮你们省了多少时间？”

[原文] [Eric]: Um copywriters 90 hours a month okay per person um and then so they're using a combination of ClickFlow to help with content with internal linking and things like that and we're also they're also using Manis which is a general agent uh to help with keyword research manis just you know did a partnership with Similar Web didn't they get bought out by Facebook they did but then you know China is trying to stop that right it's like whoa you didn't quite you know divest properly so we don't know we're gonna have to invest investigate this

[译文] [Eric]: 嗯，文案人员每月节省 90 小时，好吗，每个人。嗯，然后，所以他们结合使用 ClickFlow 来帮助处理内容、内链（internal linking）之类的东西。而且我们要……他们也在使用 Manis，这是一个通用代理（general agent），用来帮助做关键词研究。Manis 刚刚，你知道，和 Similar Web 达成了合作。

[Neil]: 他们不是被 Facebook 收购了吗？

[Eric]: 是的，但你知道中国正在试图阻止那个交易，对吧？就像是：“哇，你们并没有完全，你知道，正确地剥离资产（divest）。” 所以我们要……我们得去调查一下这个。

[原文] [Eric]: um so all that to say it's really those two things right now so any keyword research strategy stuff hey what's happening with these competitors that kind of happens with Manis um obviously they still need to talk to clients and things like that too and then I would say the other piece around content mainly comes from Clickflow internal linking um and you know updating deleting consolidating yeah

[译文] [Eric]: 嗯，总之就是说，目前主要是这两件事。所以任何关键词研究策略的东西——比如“嘿，这些竞争对手最近在干嘛”——这类事情是用 Manis 完成的。嗯，显然他们还是需要和客户沟通之类的。然后我会说关于内容的另一部分主要来自 Clickflow，比如内链，嗯，还有你知道的，更新、删除、整合（updating, deleting, consolidating）。是的。

章节 6：工具栈大揭秘与“交易复活”神器

📝 本节摘要：

Eric 详细盘点了两人每月不菲的 AI 订阅账单：除了 ChatGPT，还包括 Claude（用于代码）、Perplexity（用于深度搜索）、Gemini（用于图像和语音）以及 Granola（用于会议记录甚至充当争吵时的“裁判”）。随后，Eric 分享了他最近利用 Claude Code 构建的一款“交易复活器（Deal Reviver）”。通过连接 HubSpot 和 Gong 等工具，该程序能自动抓取 12 个月前丢失的客户线索，结合最新的融资新闻（如“恭喜获得新一轮融资”），自动撰写个性化的挽回邮件。团队只需在 Slack 上点击确认，即可发送邮件并同步记录，整个过程无需人工编写。

[原文] [Eric]: but that was very recent maybe the last couple months or so now now that I remember some of the things I did last year do you want me to answer some of those

[译文] [Eric]: 但那是最近的事，大概是过去几个月左右。现在我回想起去年做的一些事情，你想让我回答其中一些吗？

[原文] [Neil]: yes okay so in 2025 I was And Neil pays for all these things too I think um even though we're both cheap um so sadly I do i see the bills i It makes me cry every month so we both pay I I'm speaking for you i'm We both pay $200 a month for Chat GPT um the the pro version just cuz you can There's Do you pay 200 bucks a month uh I I don't know how much I pay i just know it goes on the corporation and I just know it's expensive

[译文] [Neil]: 是的，好。

[Eric]: 所以在 2025 年，我是……Neil 也为所有这些东西买单，我想，尽管我们俩都很抠门。

[Neil]: 嗯，很遗憾我确实付了，我看到了账单，每个月都让我心痛（cry）。

[Eric]: 所以我们都付钱……我这是在替你说话……我想我们每个月都为 ChatGPT 付 200 美元，嗯，就是那个 Pro 版本，只是因为你可以……那里有……你每个月付 200 块吗？

[Neil]: 呃，我不知道我付多少，我只知道是公司走的账，我只知道很贵。

[原文] [Eric]: yeah so 200 bucks a month is the individual plan okay um we both So I pay I was already paying uh I think $100 a month for Claude for Max okay and then I was paying perplexity 20 bucks a month because the deep research is really good so I used Perplexi for deep research finding things quickly um I use Gemini for image generation and VO um and then for studying YouTube videos too right um this was 2025 Eric

[译文] [Eric]: 是的，所以 200 块一个月是个人计划。好吧，嗯，我们都……所以我付……我已经付了，我想是每个月 100 美元订阅 Claude Max，好吗。然后我付 20 美元一个月给 Perplexity，因为它的深度搜索（deep research）真的很好，所以我用 Perplexity 做深度搜索，快速查找东西。嗯，我用 Gemini 生成图像和配音（VO），嗯，还有用来研究 YouTube 视频，对吧。嗯，这是 2025 年的 Eric。

[原文] [Eric]: um and then chat GPD is it's more like general questions or let's say if I'm I use granola so if I'm arguing with you about something I might just turn granola on and then we'll just see who's right it pisses people off it pisses in relationship it really pisses people off so I I don't try to do that that much i'm not going to try that one i'm married yeah yeah you you didn't do that one no that'll get you in trouble no matter what i'm going to lose either way so it's like I I just give it up on that in relationships

[译文] [Eric]: 嗯，然后 ChatGPT 更多是用于一般性问题。或者比如说，如果我在……我用 Granola（注：一款 AI 会议记录工具），所以如果我和你在争论某件事，我可能就会把 Granola 打开，然后我们看看谁是对的。这很惹人厌，在人际关系里这真的很惹人厌，所以我尽量不怎么那样做。

[Neil]: 我不打算试那个，我结婚了。

[Eric]: 是的是的，你别做那个。

[Neil]: 不，那个不管怎样都会让你惹上麻烦，反正我都会输，所以在人际关系里我就放弃那个了。

[原文] [Eric]: but um what I did by the way like I used granola yesterday like um I was having a debate with someone and like it called out where I was wrong or where they were wrong and we talked about it today and we both apologized for where we were wrong right so it's good for solving problems yeah so cuz you you have like a you know an an arbiter in there that doesn't really care about you or the other person it's just listening

[译文] [Eric]: 但是，嗯，顺便说一下我确实做了，比如昨天我用了 Granola，就像……嗯，我和某人在辩论，它指出了我在哪里错了，或者他们在哪里错了。我们今天谈了一下，我们都为自己错的地方道歉了，对吧，所以这对解决问题很好。

[Neil]: 是的，因为你就像有一个，你知道，一个仲裁者（arbiter）在那里，它并不真正关心你或另一个人，它只是在倾听。

[原文] [Eric]: um so all that to say that was last year okay now and there there's other tools too but we'll just leave it at that in the last four weeks or so I use Cloud Code and all these um these MCPs where it connects with like the tools like HubSpot HR Gong um and I built I built like a deal revor that will surface um you know deals that we lost maybe 12 months ago or so it'll show the deal size and it'll show why we lost the deal and it has an email crafted that looks like it's it's a it's a very good email it you would open it right it's like hey you know um you know Neil we connected 12 months ago and I just saw the announcement on this funding round congrats um does it make sense for us to reconnect Eric that's that's not bad right it's not 100% but it's not bad and so the the team now can click in Slack they can select what they want and they they can just hit send email and they it'll send the email out and it'll record it to HubSpot

[译文] [Eric]: 嗯，所以说了这么多，那是去年的情况。好，现在……还有其他工具，但我们就先说到这。在过去四周左右，我使用 Claude Code（原文误识别为 Cloud Code）以及所有这些 MCPs（Model Context Protocol，模型上下文协议），它可以连接像 HubSpot、HR、Gong 这样的工具。我构建了一个“交易复活器（Deal Reviver）”，它会浮现出，嗯，你知道，我们大概 12 个月前丢失的交易。它会显示交易规模，显示我们为什么丢了这个单子，并且它撰写好了一封看起来……它是一封非常好的邮件，你会打开它的，对吧？它就像是：“嘿，你知道，嗯，你知道 Neil，我们要么是 12 个月前联系过的，我刚刚看到关于这轮融资的公告，恭喜。嗯，我们要么重新联系一下是否有意义？Eric。” 这还不赖，对吧？它不是 100% 完美，但还不赖。所以团队现在可以在 Slack 里点击，他们可以选择他们想要的，然后只需点击“发送邮件”，它就会把邮件发出去，并将其记录到 HubSpot 中。

章节 7：极致杠杆：从 30 天开发周期缩短至数小时

📝 本节摘要：

Eric 描述了自己如何随时随地利用 AI 编写代码，甚至在 Sweetgreen 排队或躺在沙发上时都能构建产品原型。他算了一笔账：过去开发一个可交互的功能性软件原型通常需要 30 天，而现在他只需投入一天中 20% 的时间（约数小时）即可完成。对于完全不懂代码的他来说，这种效率提升不仅是 150 倍，甚至是“无限”的。这种掌控感让他即使在看电视时也会忍不住跳起来去写代码。相比之下，Neil 虽然认可 AI 的效率，但坚持认为自己最高杠杆的工作仍然是亲自谈交易（Deals），并表示自己在过去十几年里从未每天花超过 30 分钟使用这些工具。

[原文] [Eric]: but that's that's an MVP that's a prototype that I built just like sometimes I'll be in line at Sweet Green i'll just be building right or I'll be on my couch I just open my phone it's building right and then I sometimes I can't stand watching TV anymore and I'll just go to my computer until it's about time to go to bed um like the other day I was going to watch TV it was 6 p.m then it's holy shit it's 9:30 and I was just on cloud code the whole time building stuff in parallel

[译文] [Eric]: 但那只是一个 MVP（最小可行性产品），那是我构建的一个原型。就像有时我在 Sweetgreen（沙拉店）排队时，我就会直接在那儿构建，对吧？或者我躺在沙发上，打开手机，它就在构建，对吧。然后有时我再也受不了看电视了，我就直接去我的电脑前，直到该睡觉的时候。嗯，就像前几天，我本来打算看电视的，那时是下午6点，然后突然间，“我靠（holy shit），已经9点半了。” 而我这整个时间都在用 Claude Code（原文误识别为 Cloud Code）并行构建各种东西。

[原文] [Eric]: so my point now is the way I use it is to solve problems in my organization which I couldn't do before it's extremely high leverage and I was asking it i was like I was like hey the work that we did today how much how much work did I do as one person what did it what is it equivalent to it's like you did the work of five engineers today right i was like okay break down the math for me it's like well you know X Y and Z but also I think I broke down to Matthew last time how long did it take for you to get a prototype done before like a working prototype where you can mess around with for software

[译文] [Eric]: 所以我现在想说的是，我使用它的方式是用来解决我组织内部的问题，这是我以前做不到的，这是极高的杠杆（extremely high leverage）。我问过它，我说：“嘿，咱们今天做的工作，我作为一个人做了多少工作？它相当于什么？” 它回答说：“你今天做了相当于五个工程师的工作。” 对吧？我就说：“好吧，给我拆解一下数学逻辑。” 它就说：“嗯，你知道 X、Y 和 Z……” 但我也想，上次我好像给 Matthew 拆解过：在以前，你要做一个原型需要多长时间？就是一个可以瞎捣鼓（mess around with）的功能性软件原型。

[原文] [Eric]: uh for me are you talking about using AI or uh having my team just having your team build it in the past like a year ago so working prototype being design that you can click around or one that actually functions because you know in the design apps I forgot what the one we use not invision uh balsamic not balsamic is it invision the wireframe stuff no it's actual design and you can click around uh you're talking Figma Figma there you go yeah

[译文] [Neil]: 呃，对我来说，你是说用 AI 还是，呃，让我的团队做？

[Eric]: 就是过去让你的团队做，比如一年前。

[Neil]: 所以“功能性原型”是指你可以点击交互的设计，还是实际能运行的？因为你知道在设计软件里……我忘了我们用的那个叫什么了，不是 InVision，呃，Balsamiq？

[Eric]: 不是 Balsamiq。

[Neil]: 是 InVision 吗？那个画线框图的？

[Eric]: 不，是实际的设计，你可以点击交互的那种。

[Neil]: 呃，你是说 Figma。

[Eric]: Figma，没错，就是那个。是的。

[原文] [Eric]: um so usually I'll see stuff in less than a week okay so that's for a pro like a Figma uh for a Figma okay how about a click around you can do stuff click around and do stuff where you actually see different results like if you put in URL usually 30 to 60 days sadly so let's just say 30 days okay now get this i'm being okay let's say I can get these prototypes out in um 20% of the day okay we can be conservative here but if 20% of a day on 30 days 30 days divided by 0.2 is 150 okay so you can say I'm either 150 times faster or you can argue that I'm infinitely faster now because I I don't have coding abilities right

[译文] [Eric]: 嗯，所以通常我会在不到一周内看到东西。

[Neil]: 好的，那是指像 Figma 这样的原型。

[Eric]: 呃，那是 Figma。好吧，那如果是那种你可以点击交互、做事情，并且真正看到不同结果的呢？比如你输入一个 URL……

[Neil]: 通常要 30 到 60 天，很遗憾。

[Eric]: 所以我们就说是 30 天，好吗。现在听好了，我很……好吧，假设我能在一天中 20% 的时间里就把这些原型做出来，好吗，我们可以保守一点。但是如果用一天的 20% 对比 30 天……30 天除以 0.2 是 150。好吗，所以你可以说我快了 150 倍，或者你可以争辩说我现在是“无限快（infinitely faster）”，因为我根本没有编程能力，对吧？

[原文] [Eric]: um but you and I do have strategic abilities and we see the entire battlefield with our companies and so to me that working prototype the deal revor the ability to spot client expansion client turn opportunities and see what exactly they said and why we should be pitching this or whatever and then sending that to the team and seeing if they take action on it i I' I built all that all of that right and that's why I'm so excited for you because once I inject you with this drug or you inject yourself with this drug there's no turning back you're going to be messaging me we're just going to be doing this all the time cuz our mutual friend we're just doing it every day and he's like I feel like a loser right now i can't believe I made these meetings i'm like I can't believe I'm in these meetings too um it's just so fun right now

[译文] [Eric]: 嗯，但你我有战略能力，我们能看到我们公司的整个战场。所以对我来说，那个功能性原型、那个“交易复活器（Deal Reviver）”、那个发现客户扩张机会、客户流失机会的能力，以及查看他们到底说了什么、为什么我们应该推销这个或那个，然后把这些发给团队看他们是否采取行动……我构建了所有这些，所有这些，对吧。这就是为什么我为你感到兴奋，因为一旦我给你注射了这种药，或者你自己注射了这种药，就没有回头路了。你会发信息给我，我们会一直做这个。因为我们那个共同的朋友，我们要么每天都在做这个，他说：“我现在觉得自己像个失败者，我真不敢相信我居然还要开这些会。” 我就说：“我也真不敢相信我也在开这些会。” 嗯，现在这真的太好玩了。

[原文] [Neil]: you know for the sake of me and you've known me for a long time i don't know how many years but it's well over 10 15 plus 15 16 years okay i can't get the life of me to spend more than 30 minutes a day using these tools mhm i agree they make me more efficient as a marketer but I find my highest use of time just doing deals more than anything else so the these tools are great and I have my team using them all day long um engineers marketers product people even customer success because we can input all the satisfied people all the unsatisfied people learn from it have AI help with the responses and train our people there's a lot that you can end up doing with these products but I still find my highest use or best leverage uh for my time is just focusing on closing deals

[译文] [Neil]: 你知道，就我而言——你认识我很长时间了，我不知道多少年，但肯定超过10年、15年了。

[Eric]: 15、16年了。

[Neil]: 好吧，我无论如何也没法让自己每天花超过 30 分钟使用这些工具。（嗯哼）。我同意它们让我作为营销人员更高效，但我发现我时间的最高利用价值（highest use of time）就是做交易（doing deals），比任何其他事情都重要。所以这些工具很棒，我让我的团队整天都在用——工程师、营销人员、产品人员，甚至客户成功团队——因为我们可以输入所有满意的人、不满意的人，从中学习，让 AI 帮助回复并培训我们的员工。你可以用这些产品做很多事情，但我仍然发现我时间的最高利用价值或最佳杠杆，嗯，就是专注于达成交易。

章节 8：终极辩论：人际交易的不可替代性与 AI 幻觉

📝 本节摘要：

面对 Eric 的热情安利，Neil 坚持认为尽管 AI 能处理繁琐工作（如团队成员 Kaio 协助的抓取名单和发送冷邮件），但他个人的核心价值仍在于亲自达成交易（Closing Deals）。Eric 对此提出挑战，以一顿大餐为赌注，预言 Neil 在 12 个月内会为了获得更高杠杆而改变看法。作为反驳，Neil 指出了 AI 目前在高端决策辅助上的致命弱点——幻觉。他举了一个具体的税务案例：ChatGPT 在咨询“奖金折旧（Bonus Depreciation）”时提供了错误信息（声称是 40% 而非修正后的 100%）。Neil 强调，对于他熟悉的领域，尚能识别这些错误，但涉及复杂的法律和税务细微差别时，他目前甚至觉得 Google 比 ChatGPT 更准确。

[原文] [Eric]: i don't I don't disagree with you but I'm willing to bet you um I'm willing to bet you a really nice meal in 12 months or so you're going to be using this because and this is and let me come back to your response too because I I do um I will say Neil typically is I'm more on the optimistic side sometimes too optimistic sometimes Neil's on the pessimistic side sometimes too pessimistic it's a good balance right but what I would say is um let's say I agree with you your highest leverage thing is doing deals right um whether it's you know whether it's an M&A transaction or like a deal like a business transaction like a sales transaction or a partnership i do agree with that um this type like let's say that's true what are all the things that bother you with that process right now that would be able to help you gain even more leverage there that's how I look at it how can I gain leverage on all these things and that's how my friends look at I'm like what are you building right now because arguably he should he shouldn't be doing what he's doing right now but I'm like so what are you building he's like everything's around product right now and it it is it's going to save him a lot on headcount but he's like "Dude this is this is supercharging everything we're going to build."

[译文] [Eric]: 我不……我不反对你，但我愿意跟你打赌，嗯，我愿意赌一顿非常丰盛的大餐，在 12 个月左右，你会开始用这个的。因为……这也是让我回应你的回答……因为我确实，嗯，我会说 Neil 通常……我更多是站在乐观的一面，有时过于乐观；有时 Neil 站在悲观的一面，有时过于悲观。这是一种很好的平衡，对吧？但我想说的是，嗯，假设我同意你最高杠杆的事情是做交易，对吧？无论是，你知道，并购（M&A）交易，还是像商业交易、销售交易或合作伙伴关系，我确实同意这一点。嗯，这类事情……假设那是真的，那么在这个过程中，目前有哪些让你烦恼的事情，是可以通过这些工具帮助你获得更高杠杆的？这就是我看待它的方式：我如何在所有这些事情上获得杠杆？这也是我朋友们的看法。我就问：“你现在在构建什么？” 因为按理说他现在不应该做他正在做的事，但我问：“那你到底在构建什么？” 他说：“现在所有东西都是围绕产品的。” 这确实会在人力成本上为他省下一大笔钱，但他说：“老兄，这正在让我们要构建的一切都增压提速（supercharging）。”

[原文] [Neil]: So my team uh Kaio helped build a lot of the automation to uh scrape get lists send first cold emails for M&A um so we've already built a lot of the stuff and we're using AI for a lot of the grunt work that we hated hiring people for or you know that I would just mainly go on LinkedIn and go look for companies and a lot of that's done the main way I use AI to make deals happen is I go and do research and when I say research is I'll ask chat GBT questions or you know AI mode questions or Gemini whatever you want to end up calling any of these products

[译文] [Neil]: 所以我的团队，呃，Kaio 帮忙建立了很多自动化流程，用来抓取数据、获取名单、发送并购（M&A）的第一封冷邮件。嗯，所以我们已经构建了很多这类东西，我们正在用 AI 处理很多我们要么讨厌雇人来做的苦活（grunt work），或者你知道，以前我主要是去 LinkedIn 上找公司。很多这类工作已经完成了。我利用 AI 促成交易的主要方式是去做研究。当我说研究时，我会问 ChatGPT 问题，或者你知道，AI 模式的问题，或者 Gemini，不管你最后想怎么称呼这些产品。

[原文] [Neil]: um and what I found is they're often many cases so for example sometimes I'm doing deals where you're structuring them and it involves tax consequences and uh I was talking to uh chat GPT a few days ago about a potential deal and it was just like oh it's not going to be tax favorable for you cuz with the Trump tax bill bonus depreciation in 2026 is only 40% and I'm like what the heck are they talking about it's been known for a long time that he renewed the bill and it's now 100% for bonus depreciation right and it carried back all the way towards I think Jan 20 or something like that of or whenever he got signed into office but I was like what the heck is Chad GPD talking about what I find is these tools produce a lot of inaccurate information luckily for me I'm using them for research on topics that I'm already familiar with but there's nuances on laws and taxation for states versus federal and every state is different

[译文] [Neil]: 嗯，我发现它们经常有很多情况……举个例子，有时我在做交易，你在构建交易结构时会涉及到税务后果。呃，几天前我在跟 ChatGPT 谈论一个潜在的交易，它就说：“噢，这对你在税务上并不有利，因为根据特朗普税收法案，2026 年的奖金折旧（bonus depreciation）只有 40%。” 我当时就想：“它们到底在说什么鬼？” 大家都知道很久了，他续签了法案，现在奖金折旧是 100%，对吧？而且它一直追溯到，我想是 1 月 20 日之类的，或者他签署上任的时候。但我当时就想：“ChatGPT 到底在说什么鬼？” 我发现这些工具产生了很多不准确的信息。幸运的是，我是用它们来研究我已经熟悉的话题，但在法律和税务的细微差别上，州与联邦不同，每个州都不一样。

[原文] [Neil]: um but I'm able to catch some of this stuff but other than that like that's the main thing I want fixed and I hope that they'll be able to fix this stuff within a matter of a few years i find that Google though tends to actually be more accurate than chat GBT believe it or not all right guys we'll catch you later goodbye

[译文] [Neil]: 嗯，我能捕捉到其中一些错误。但除此之外，那是我主要希望被修复的东西，我希望它们能在几年内修复这些问题。不过我发现，信不信由你，Google 实际上往往比 ChatGPT 更准确。好了伙计们，我们要下次见啦，再见。