章节 1：独立开发者的巅峰与数字游民生活

📝 本节摘要：

访谈以一段关于“危机与机遇”的犀利独白开场，随后主持人正式介绍了 Pieter Levels 作为独立黑客（Indie Hacker）代表人物的惊人成就：单人运营多个项目（Nomad List, Remote OK, Photo AI），年营收超 300 万美元，且完全没有全职员工。本节也勾勒了他作为“数字游民”先驱的生活方式——在十年间旅居 40 多个国家，仅凭一台笔记本电脑边旅行边创业。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I think it's actually good that it's going so bad in Europe, because it's almost like the patient is so sick— Never waste a crisis.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我觉得欧洲现在情况这么糟其实是件好事，这就好像病人已经病入膏肓了——永远不要浪费一次危机。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: The problem is, if you're a founder and you raise money, you kind of need to go big or bust, right? It's hard to stay in between.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 问题在于，如果你是一个创始人并且筹集了资金，你就必须做大，否则就会破产，对吧？很难保持在中间状态。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I also work really hard, because I tweeted, I think 125,000 times over 10 years, so it's like, 40 tweets a day. You've contributed so many brain cells to spending time on X.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我工作也非常努力，因为我在 10 年里发了大概 12.5 万条推文，相当于每天 40 条。你（指自己）把太多的脑细胞都贡献给了 X（原 Twitter）。

[原文] [Host]: Pieter Levels, one of the most prolific indie hackers and digital nomads, whose businesses now do more than $3 million in revenue— and it's just Pieter working on them. Cheers.

[译文] [Host]: Pieter Levels，最高产的独立黑客（Indie Hackers）和数字游民之一，他的企业现在的收入超过 300 万美元——而且只有 Pieter 一个人在运营它们。干杯。

[原文] [Host]: I think you are maybe the most prominent indie hacker? Nomad List, got to $700k in ARR, Remote OK has gotten to $3.4 million in revenue, Photo AI got to $600k in ARR.

[译文] [Host]: 我觉得你可能是最杰出的独立黑客？Nomad List 达到了 70 万美元的年度经常性收入（ARR），Remote OK 达到了 340 万美元的收入，Photo AI 达到了 60 万美元的 ARR。

[原文] [Host]: And these are all just you. Like, these are not startups that you have started, these are just Pieter Levels productions.

[译文] [Host]: 而且这些全是你一个人做的。就像是，这些不是你创办的创业公司（startups），这些纯粹是“Pieter Levels 出品”。

[原文] [Host]: You're also at the vanguard of the digital nomad thing. You've lived in more than 40 countries and 150 cities?

[译文] [Host]: 你也是数字游民潮流的先锋。你住过 40 多个国家和 150 多个城市？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah, I think so. I've mostly just been working on my laptop for the last decade, traveling around,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 对，应该是吧。过去十年我主要就是靠我的笔记本电脑工作，四处旅行。

章节 2：早期尝试与“父辈的助攻”

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Pieter 回忆起 12 岁时的“创业”经历：为了在网上收费，他请求父亲签署了一份包含巨额赔偿责任的 Worldpay 合同，而父亲尽管担忧仍选择了支持。主持人 John Collison 对此感同身受，并分享了哥哥 Patrick Collison 童年的趣事——年幼的 Patrick 曾以此法弄到了一台昂贵的 Sun Microsystems 工作站，最后还是母亲出面帮正在做家庭作业的“Collison 先生”挡回了销售代表的推销电话。这不仅是关于早熟黑客的故事，更是对那些默默支持疯狂梦想的父母们的致敬。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: just making stuff, making little creative projects that I needed to solve my problems. And then most of the time, nobody else needed that problem solved. But a few times, it worked,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 只是做点东西，做一些富有创意的小项目来解决我自己的问题。虽然大多数时候，没别人需要解决这个问题。但有几次，它成功了。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And then, I mean, I used Stripe a lot, right? When Stripe came to Holland—back then I lived in Holland, it was 2014, I think—I was like, "Oh, shit, now I can start making money." and that was the year I started making money.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 然后，我是说，我经常用 Stripe，对吧？当 Stripe 进入荷兰时——那时候我住在荷兰，应该是 2014 年——我就想，“噢，该死，现在我可以开始赚钱了。”也就是那一年我开始赚钱了。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: When I was a kid, I think I was 12 years old, I was making websites too, and I wanted to charge money on the internet.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 当我还是个孩子的时候，我想大概是 12 岁吧，我也在做网站，我想在互联网上收费。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And I remember signing up to Worldpay—I think it was Worldpay—and there was a giant contract. It was in America, and I lived in Holland, I asked my dad to sign for it.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我记得我注册了 Worldpay——我想是 Worldpay——那有一份巨大的合同。公司在美国，而我住在荷兰，我让我爸帮我签了字。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And my dad read the whole contract, and it was like, "You're liable for damages up to $100 million." He was like, "What am I signing for?"

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我爸读了整份合同，上面写着类似“你需要承担最高 1 亿美元的损害赔偿责任”。他就问：“我签的这是什么鬼东西？”

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I'm like, "No, Dad, you don't understand. I need to make money on the internet. Just sign it." And he signed it. We faxed it to America, and I had a merchant account. I never sold anything. Luckily, maybe,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我就说：“不，爸，你不懂。我需要在网上赚钱。签了就行。”然后他签了。我们将它传真到了美国，我就有了一个商户账户（merchant account）。我从来没卖出过任何东西。也许这算走运吧，

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: because otherwise, we would be liable for damages. I feel like this is a common thread amongst entrepreneurs getting their parents to help them with things they shouldn't do.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 因为否则的话，我们可能就要承担赔偿责任了。我觉得这是企业家之间的一个共同点，就是让父母帮他们做一些本不该做的事情。

[原文] [Host]: Patrick, at one point, got a demo of a Sun Microsystems workstation. Oh my god. Remember, these were very high-end workstations.

[译文] [Host]: Patrick（Stripe 联合创始人）有一次搞到了一台 Sun Microsystems 工作站的演示机。噢天哪。记得吗，这些在当时是非常高端的工作站。

[原文] [Host]: And he just filled out the form and got them, they came with a truck and they unloaded it... Oh my god. ...and he was playing with it.

[译文] [Host]: 他只是填了个表就搞到了，他们开着卡车送过来并卸货……噢天哪。……然后他就开始玩那台机器。

[原文] [Host]: And I just remember the Sun Microsystems rep was calling the house and they were like, "Is Mr. Collison interested in continuing with a purchase?"

[译文] [Host]: 我记得 Sun Microsystems 的销售代表往家里打电话，问道：“Collison 先生有兴趣购买吗？”

[原文] [Host]: And our mom was like, "Mr. Collison is doing his homework, and you need to stop calling me." They hadn't realized that he was 12 years old at the time, or whatever.

[译文] [Host]: 然后我们的妈妈说：“Collison 先生正在做作业，请不要再给我打电话了。”他们根本没意识到他当时只有 12 岁，或者是差不多那个年纪。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Man, amazing.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 天哪，太神奇了。

章节 3：从YouTube变现到独立黑客的崛起

📝 本节摘要：

在深入探讨软件开发之前，Pieter 分享了他鲜为人知的“第一桶金”来源：他曾是一名 Drum and Bass 音乐制作人和 DJ。作为 YouTube 最早一批通过视频变现的创作者，他在大学期间就实现了月入 8000 美元的壮举。随后话题转向“独立黑客”理念，Pieter 回忆了 2013 年前后的科技圈氛围——那是风险投资（VC）统治的时代，远程工作和独立创业几乎不存在，而如今互联网为开发者提供了全新的致富路径。

[原文] [Host]: Did you try to monetize projects before you started building them on YouTube or—

[译文] [Host]: 在你开始在 YouTube 上做那些项目之前，你有没有尝试过变现项目，或者——

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: No, because... So what happened was, I was making music and I was DJing, I was organizing nightclub nights in Holland, UK and stuff, drum and bass music.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 不，因为……当时的情况是，我在做音乐，还在做 DJ，我在荷兰、英国等地组织夜店活动，主要是鼓打贝斯（drum and bass）音乐。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: You're Irish, you know drum and bass. Drum and bass, most people don't really know it, but British people know, Irish people know it.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 你是爱尔兰人，你知道鼓打贝斯。鼓打贝斯，大多数人其实不太了解，但英国人知道，爱尔兰人知道。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: So, when YouTube started monetizing videos, I was uploading my music already. So I was one of the first YouTube monetizing people.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 所以，当 YouTube 开始对视频进行货币化（monetizing）时，我已经上传了我的音乐。所以我算是最早一批通过 YouTube 赚钱的人。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I was number one or number two in Holland for a while, in the top channels. But the thing is, I started making money, like $1,000, and then $2,000, and then $8,000 per month, a lot of money. And I was in university.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 有段时间我在荷兰的频道排名里是第一或第二。重点是，我开始赚钱了，先是 1000 美元，然后 2000 美元，接着是每月 8000 美元，这可是一大笔钱。而我当时还在上大学。

[原文] [Host]: So it seems like you've done well on this, kind of being a person on the internet. How much of a partisan are you on the topic of the indie hacker approach?

[译文] [Host]: 看来你在这方面做得很好，就是做一个“互联网人”。在“独立黑客”（indie hacker）这个路径上，你有多么坚定的立场（partisan）？

[原文] [Host]: Because obviously, most of tech doesn't run in the indie hacker way, where, again, you're building multimillion-dollar revenue businesses all by yourself. Do you think way more people should be doing the indie hacking thing?

[译文] [Host]: 因为很明显，大多数科技公司并不是按独立黑客的方式运作的，也就是说，像你这样完全靠自己建立数百万美元收入的企业。你认为应该有更多人去尝试独立黑客这条路吗？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I mean, I think the internet makes you partisan, right? So I don't think I've been partisan much, but I think—

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我是说，我觉得互联网会让人变得有立场，对吧？我不觉得我有多么偏激，但我认为——

[原文] [Host]: Until you got on X.

[译文] [Host]: 直到你上了 X（推特）。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah, well, X does help with it. But you have to understand—2013, '14, when I entered kind of the startup world, there was barely any... There was no indie hacking,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 对，好吧，X 确实起到了助推作用。但你必须理解——在 2013、2014 年，当我刚进入创业圈的时候，几乎没有任何……根本就没有“独立黑客”这回事。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: there was no bootstrapping, almost, except Patrick McKenzie, who you know well. You would find investors, you would raise money, you would grow fast, you would hire a lot of people, you get a big office.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 几乎没有自力更生（bootstrapping）这一说，除了 Patrick McKenzie，你应该很熟。那是你得找投资人，得融资，得快速增长，得雇很多人，得弄个大办公室。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Remote didn't exist, remote work. So compared to that, what's possible now? There's alternatives possible now.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 远程工作（Remote）当时也不存在。所以和那时相比，现在有什么可能？现在有了其他的替代方案。

[原文] [Host]: Yes.

[译文] [Host]: 是的。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And you can make a lot of money with this. I don't think you can become a billionaire. Maybe we will see that in the future.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 而且你可以通过这种方式赚很多钱。我不认为你能成为亿万富翁。也许未来我们会看到这种情况发生。

章节 4：VC陷阱：验证优先与独角兽的压力

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Pieter 对当前的风险投资（VC）模式进行了直率的批评。他认为大量初创公司在没有任何用户基础或市场验证（Traction）的情况下盲目烧钱是极不健康的。与其追求虚幻的估值，不如先验证业务并实现盈利。他指出了拿 VC 钱的核心困境：一旦接受投资，创始人就被迫走上“要么做大要么完蛋”（Go big or bust）的独木桥，无法安于做一个年入千万美元的“小而美”企业。这种“二元对立”的成功标准，往往让创业者在极低的成功率中耗尽青春。

[原文] [Host]: So you think for talented engineers who have a commercial brain, and who are good at product... ...they should at least seriously evaluate the path of just building their own successful products in the internet, like you?

[译文] [Host]: 所以你认为对于那些有商业头脑、且擅长做产品的天才工程师来说…………他们至少应该认真评估一下这条路，也就是像你一样，在互联网上建立自己成功的产品？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah, I think... Look, what I hate most about VC stuff is when you see people burn money. You probably hate this as well.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 是的，我觉得……听着，关于 VC（风险投资）这套东西，我最讨厌的就是看到人们烧钱。你可能也讨厌这个。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: A company with no users raises $50 million, $100 million, and you're like, "What is this product?" Like, it doesn't have any traction and it's just hype. We've all seen these startups. And they just disappear.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 一家没有任何用户的公司融资了 5000 万、1 亿美元，你会想，“这产品到底是什么？”它没有任何牵引力（traction），纯粹是炒作。我们都见过这种创业公司。然后它们就消失了。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I think it's much more interesting—and maybe you guys did the same with Stripe—but validate first and build a business first, and see if you get traction. Like, get to $50k or a $100k a month.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我觉得更有趣的做法是——也许你们 Stripe 也是这么做的——先验证想法，先建立业务，看看能不能获得增长势头。比如，先做到月入 5 万或 10 万美元。

[原文] [Host]: No, look, I'm with you. Despite the fact Stripe has obviously raised VC, we just started writing code, we got our first paying customer way before we raised any money for the business...

[译文] [Host]: 不，听着，我同意你的看法。尽管 Stripe 显然拿了风投，但我们刚开始只是写代码，我们在为公司融到任何钱之前很久就已经有了第一个付费客户……

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Wow.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 哇。

[原文] [Host]: ...and then it just kind of grew and grew and grew. And it's a little bit different company in the financial services space. You need to be well-capitalized

[译文] [Host]: ……然后它就自然而然地增长、增长再增长。不过在金融服务领域，公司性质有点不同。你需要资本充足。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah, but this is the thing. It's natural. It's kind of organic, right? Even if you raise money, you did it in an organic way, and you only raise more when you see the growth coming.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 对，但这正是关键所在。它是自然的。这是一种有机的增长，对吧？即使你们融了资，也是以一种有机的方式进行的，只有在看到增长来临时才融更多的钱。

[原文] [Host]: Have you ever been tempted to raise for one of your projects?

[译文] [Host]: 你有没有动过心要为你某个项目融资？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: No. But a lot of VCs have been in my DMs, and they want to invest. And I think because now I'm financially independent, I've made a lot of money, now I could do it, because now I'm at a point where it sounds fun to play with other people's money.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 没有。但是很多 VC 私信我也想投资。我觉得因为我现在财务独立了，赚了很多钱，现在我反倒可以试试了，因为到了这个阶段，拿别人的钱来玩听起来挺有意思的。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: But also, in a serious way, it sounds fun to go to a bigger thing. I mean, that's something you typically say after you've been a week in San Francisco, right? You start talking like this. But I'm not convinced yet.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 而且，严肃地说，去做一件更大的事情听起来也很有趣。我是说，这通常是你待在旧金山一周后会说的话，对吧？你会开始像这样说话。但我还没被完全说服。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: But the problem is if you're a founder and you raise money, you kind of need to go big or bust, right? It's hard to stay in between.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 但问题是，如果你是一个创始人并且融了资，你就有点必须“要么做大要么完蛋”（go big or bust），对吧？很难保持在中间状态。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: You can't make $10 million a year. You kind of need to make $100 million a year. You kind of need to become a unicorn. That's difficult, because the odds of that happening are not super high. Like, it's a few percentage [points] maybe.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 你不能只赚 1000 万美元一年。你必须赚 1 亿美元一年。你必须成为独角兽。这很难，因为发生的概率并不高。可能只有几个百分点。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: So most people don't get there, and they do spend five years or, I don't know, seven years of their 20s on that. And that's something where, if you would be an indie, and you would have a $10-million-a-year company...

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 所以大多数人达不到那个目标，但他们确实在那上面耗费了 20 多岁时的 5 年，或者不知道，7 年时间。而如果是独立开发者，你拥有一家年入 1000 万美元的公司……

[原文] [Host]: It'd be great.

[译文] [Host]: 那就很棒了。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: ...and you have 100% ownership.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: ……而且你拥有 100% 的股权。

[原文] [Host]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing. You have so much money. You're saying as a VC-funded startup, you're kind of locking in the expectations for your company in advance as to what's successful and what's not.

[译文] [Host]: 对，对，对。太棒了。你会有很多钱。你的意思是，作为一家 VC 资助的初创公司，你其实是提前锁定了对公司的期望值，关于什么是成功，什么不是。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah, And it's quite liberating to just start building things.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 是的。而且只是开始构建东西，这种感觉相当自由。

章节 5：70个项目与“长寿”的代码

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，主持人惊叹于 Pieter 庞大的项目数量——他已推出了至少 70 个项目，甚至自己都记不清确切数字。与许多初创公司“快速失败”的策略不同，Pieter 倾向于让项目长期存活以保留“互联网历史”。他以十年前开发的承诺网站 "Go Fucking Do It" 为例，展示了极简主义的技术哲学：一段十年未改的 PHP 代码，至今仍在自动运行并产生收入。这不仅是关于技术债的反思，更是对“被动收入”最真实的写照。

[原文] [Host]: Pieter Levels enterprises, broadly, is making $3.1 million a year.

[译文] [Host]: Pieter Levels 的企业，总体来说，一年能赚 310 万美元。

[原文] [Host]: And you've launched 70 projects?

[译文] [Host]: 而且你已经发布了 70 个项目？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah. Probably more, because I don't have the list,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 对。可能更多，因为我没有清单。

[原文] [Host]: You've launched so many that you lose track, but it's at least 70. Do you shut them down if they're becoming too small to be relevant?

[译文] [Host]: 你发布的项目多到自己都记不清了，但至少有 70 个。如果它们变得太小而无关紧要了，你会把它们关掉吗？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: No, I try to keep a lot of them running. I like to keep the internet history existing. It's sad to see all these websites disappear.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 不，我试着让它们大部分都保持运行。我喜欢保留现存的互联网历史。看到所有这些网站消失是很令人悲伤的。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I keep them on my server running. URLs shouldn't break.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我把它们放在我的服务器上运行。URL（网址）不应该失效。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: One product that still runs on Stripe is Go Effing Do It. I don't know if I can curse, but gofuckingdoit.com,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 有一个还在 Stripe 上运行的产品是 "Go Effing Do It"。我不知道我能不能说脏话，但是是 gofuckingdoit.com。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: where, for example, you wanna quit smoking. So you write, "I wanna quit smoking," or "I don't wanna smoke." And the deadline is December 1, 2025.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 举个例子，你想戒烟。所以你写下，“我想戒烟”，或者“我不想抽烟”。截止日期是 2025 年 12 月 1 日。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And then, you have to enter the email of your friend and he checks it. And then you enter your credit card with Stripe and it creates a customer, and it doesn't charge the customer yet.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 然后，你必须输入你朋友的电子邮箱，由他来监督。接着你在 Stripe 上输入你的信用卡信息，系统会创建一个客户，但暂时还不会扣费。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And you set a price. So for example, $100. And then on December 1, 2025, your friend gets an email, "Did he smoke?" And he says yes or no.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 你设定一个价格。比如，100 美元。然后到了 2025 年 12 月 1 日，你的朋友会收到一封邮件，“他抽烟了吗？”他回答是或否。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And if it's yes, you get charged and I get the money. And the product still works, and it still makes, I think, $50 a month, and I didn't change the code in 10 years.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 如果是“是”，你就会被扣款，我就拿到了钱。这个产品现在还能用，我想它每个月还能赚 50 美元，而且我 10 年没改过代码了。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It's PHP, you know? It still runs.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 它是用 PHP 写的，你知道吗？它依然在运行。

[原文] [Host]: So part of what you're doing is you're creating all these businesses that have actually pretty long lifetimes as well.

[译文] [Host]: 所以你所做的一部分工作其实是创造了这些拥有相当长寿命的业务。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 是的。

章节 6：游民的真相：安全、孤独与文化脱节

📝 本节摘要：

Pieter 坦诚分享了数字游民生活的两面性。一方面，他鼓励所有人走出舒适区，认为旅行能从根本上改变一个人的视野，且世界远比想象中安全——他十年漂泊未曾遇险，唯一的被盗经历反而在家乡。另一方面，他也直言这种生活伴随着极度的孤独感。长期脱离母国文化会让人感到“无所依附”（untethered），这种文化根基的断裂需要数年时间进行心理重建。

[原文] [Host]: Who should try the digital nomad thing? Who does it appeal to?

[译文] [Host]: 谁应该尝试数字游民这种生活方式？它吸引什么样的人？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I think anyone. It doesn't matter if you're 20 or 70 or whatever.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我觉得任何人都可以。无论你是 20 岁还是 70 岁，或者多大都没关系。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: But I think, digital nomad, it's so cool, because leaving your own country, which I did...

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 但我觉得，数字游民太酷了，因为离开你自己的国家——就像我做的那样……

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: This changes you on such a fundamental level, going to the other side of the world.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 这会在根本层面上改变你，去到世界的另一端。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It's amazing. And it's way safer than you think. Usually nothing happens.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 这很神奇。而且这比你想象的要安全得多。通常什么事都不会发生。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I've never been robbed except in my hometown. It was a burglary. So in 10 years of digital nomading, nothing ever happened.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 除了在我的家乡，我从来没被抢过。那是一次入室盗窃。所以在 10 年的数字游民生涯中，什么坏事都没发生过。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: So, yeah, I think it completely expands your horizon. There's nothing I can recommend as much as for people to just go travel.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 所以，是的，我觉得这完全拓展了你的视野。没有什么比建议人们去旅行更值得推荐的了。

[原文] [Host]: How did you make it not be lonely, not knowing anyone in all these places?

[译文] [Host]: 在所有这些人生地不熟的地方，你是怎么做到不感到孤独的？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It was extremely lonely.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 其实极其孤独。

[原文] [Host]: Oh, okay. It just was lonely?

[译文] [Host]: 噢，好吧。就是很孤独？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And then you lose contact with the grounds of your own culture, your home country. And everything's fine, people are nice, but you're like...

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 然后你会与自己文化的根基、你的祖国失去联系。虽然一切都好，人们也很友善，但你会觉得……

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It fundamentally removes your foundational culture at some point. You become untethered.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 它在某种程度上从根本上剥离了你的原生文化。你会变得“无所依附”（untethered）。

[原文] [Host]: Yeah, untethered. That's it.

[译文] [Host]: 是的，无所依附。就是这个词。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And you have to rebuild it up. And that's a psychologically taxing process. It takes some years.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 你必须重新建立它。那是一个在心理上负担很重的过程。需要花好几年时间。

章节 7：致敬先驱：帕特里克·麦肯齐与诚实的生意

📝 本节摘要：

在这一章节，Pieter 追溯了自己独立开发理念的源头。时光倒流回 2013 年，那时的 Hacker News 充斥着巨额融资新闻，但真正打动大学时期的 Pieter 的，却是 Patrick McKenzie（网名 Patio11）关于“预约提醒软件年入 6 万美元”的朴实分享。这种“诚实、干净、简单”的生意模式，以及后来 Jon Yongfook 优雅的游民创业生活，成为了 Pieter 渴望复制的理想蓝图，彻底改变了他对成功的定义。

[原文] [Host]: What have you learned from Patio11?

[译文] [Host]: 你从 Patio11（Patrick McKenzie 的网名）那里学到了什么？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Dude, amazing guy. What an inspiration. So, you have to go in the time machine.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 伙计，了不起的家伙。真的是一种激励。所以，你得坐上时光机回到过去。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Back in 2013, or even earlier, I'm reading Hacker News in university, and I read two types of articles.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 回到 2013 年，甚至更早，我在大学里读 Hacker News（黑客新闻），我读到两种类型的文章。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I read, "We're raising $40 million for a startup." Back then Hacker News was full of raising, it was special. Now you don't see that anymore. Now it was more tech.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我读到“我们为一家初创公司筹集了 4000 万美元”。那时候 Hacker News 充满了融资新闻，那很特别。现在你看不到了。现在更多是技术内容。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And you'd read Patrick McKenzie, "I made $60,000 this year with Appointment Reminder." This site, which was like...

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 然后你会读到 Patrick McKenzie 写道：“我今年靠 Appointment Reminder（预约提醒）赚了 6 万美元。”这个网站就像是……

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: He would go to hair salons, I think, and then sell his appointment reminder website. It just reminded people to show up for their appointments.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我想他是去理发店，然后向他们推销他的预约提醒网站。它只是提醒人们按时赴约。

[原文] [Host]: Yes, like an SMS.

[译文] [Host]: 是的，就像发短信一样。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It was the most amazingly simple business. And I would read this post, it was like, "This is amazing, this guy."

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 那是最令人惊叹的简单生意。我读到这篇文章时，感觉就是，“这太棒了，这家伙。”

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Like, $60K a year, that's big. We need to do this. So seeing somebody making a cool, honest business...

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 比如，一年 6 万美元，这可是大钱。我们需要做这个。所以看到有人在做一个很酷、很诚实的生意……

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And another guy, Jon Yongfook, he was a few years after Patrick Mckenzie, but he was also traveling as a nomad in Singapore and Asia,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 还有另一个人，Jon Yongfook，他在 Patrick McKenzie 之后几年出现，但他也在新加坡和亚洲像游民一样旅行，

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: and he was very well-dressed, and he was making beautiful SaaS. I was impressed that they were making honest, cool, clean businesses.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 而且他穿得很讲究，做着漂亮的 SaaS（软件即服务）。我很佩服他们做的是诚实、很酷、干净的生意。

[原文] [Host]: Yes.

[译文] [Host]: 是的。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And I wanna do the same thing.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我也想做同样的事情。

章节 8：个人品牌、推特治国与ChatGPT的冲击

📝 本节摘要：

这一节探讨了个人影响力（Personal Brand）在独立开发中的巨大杠杆作用。主持人指出 Pieter 仅凭一个想法就预售了 5 万美元的新书，这得益于他十年如一日的高强度输出——他在 X（推特）上累计发布了 12.5 万条推文。此外，Pieter 透露了一个令所有站长震惊的数据：仅在一个月内，ChatGPT 带来的流量占比就从 4% 飙升至 20%。对于讨厌繁琐 SEO（搜索引擎优化）的他来说，这意味着未来的流量分配将更看重产品本身的质量，而非针对谷歌算法的优化技巧。

[原文] [Host]: One thing I was reflecting on is the fact that you are now a big brand, in a way, the brand of Pieter Levels, where... Well, no, think about it.

[译文] [Host]: 我在反思的一件事是，你现在在某种程度上已经是一个大品牌了，Pieter Levels 这个品牌……好吧，不，想一想。

[原文] [Host]: You sold $50,000 of pre-orders for your book before you had written any of the book. You just said, "I might write a book, and buy it here," and you got $50,000 of sales.

[译文] [Host]: 你的书在还没写一个字之前，就卖出了 5 万美元的预售额。你只是说，“我可能会写本书，在这里买”，然后你就获得了 5 万美元的销售额。

[原文] [Host]: And so, to what extent does the recipe now work because you are launching these products, and if someone else was to build the flight simulator or if someone else was to write the book... then it wouldn't sell as well?

[译文] [Host]: 所以，现在的这套成功秘诀在多大程度上是因为是你发布了这些产品才奏效的？如果别人去开发那个飞行模拟器，或者别人去写这本书……是不是就卖不动了？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah. Man. I think of course it's part of it, but I also work really hard, because I tweeted, I think 125,000 times over 10 years, so it's like 40 tweets a day.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 是的。伙计。我觉得这当然是原因之一，但我也工作得非常努力，因为我在 10 年里发了大概 12.5 万条推文，相当于每天 40 条。

[原文] [Host]: You've contributed so many brain cells to spending time on X.

[译文] [Host]: 你把太多的脑细胞都贡献给了 X（推特）。

[原文] [Host]: Are you getting a lot of ChatGPT referrals?

[译文] [Host]: 你有从 ChatGPT 那里获得很多推荐流量吗？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It's amazing, yeah. I've seen the growth. ChatGPT, a month ago, was... So, if you have the Google traffic, that's like 100%. ChatGPT was, like, 4%. Now it's 20%.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 这一点很惊人，是的。我看到了增长。ChatGPT，一个月前还是……这么说吧，如果你把谷歌流量算作 100% 的基准，ChatGPT 当时大概是 4%。现在它是 20%。

[原文] [Host]: Wait. In the last month, ChatGPT has gone from 4% to 20% of your traffic?

[译文] [Host]: 等等。在上个月里，ChatGPT 带来的流量占比从 4% 涨到了 20%？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: In the last month. So it went 5x, and I checked other websites it's the same story.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 就在上个月。所以它翻了 5 倍，我也查了其他网站，情况是一样的。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And I think it's beneficial for me, because it's very hard for me, as a solo person, to do SEO stuff. And I hate SEO stuff. I just want to make a cool product and a cool website with a nice title and whatever.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我觉得这对我是有利的，因为作为一个人单干，做 SEO（搜索引擎优化）那些东西对我来说很难。而且我讨厌 SEO。我只想做一个很酷的产品、一个很酷的网站，起个好听的名字，诸如此类。

章节 9：极致自动化：用AI替代团队管理

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Pieter 解释了他是如何将“一人公司”的理念贯彻到底的。面对拥有 4 万人的 Nomad List 社区，他没有选择雇佣人工管理员来处理繁琐的社区纠纷（Drama），而是接入了 GPT API。他发现 AI 不仅能不知疲倦地工作，更重要的是它绝对“中立”，避免了人类管理员容易被指责偏袒的问题。对他而言，雇佣员工意味着必须通过“管理”来解决问题，而使用 AI 则让他能继续专注于他最热爱的“创造”。

[原文] [Host]: You talk in your book about automation being really important for making the indie hacker recipe work.

[译文] [Host]: 你在书中谈到，自动化对于让独立黑客的模式奏效非常重要。

[原文] [Host]: Because I guess if you get drowned in operational work, you're not gonna be able to do multiple projects, you won't do as many shots on goal, everything like that.

[译文] [Host]: 因为我猜如果你被淹没在运营工作中，你就无法同时做多个项目，你也就无法进行那么多次尝试（shots on goal），诸如此类。

[原文] [Host]: So how much has the automation of your business tasks improved over the past 10 years, if at all?

[译文] [Host]: 那么在过去 10 年里，你的业务任务自动化程度有多大提升？如果有的话。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Man, it's been amazing for me.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 伙计，这对我来说简直太棒了。

[原文] [Host]: What have you automated?

[译文] [Host]: 你自动化了什么？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: So, for example, Nomad List, it's a big website, you can visit, you can find a place to live and work remotely. But you can also join a community.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 举个例子，Nomad List，这是一个很大的网站，你可以访问它，找到适合远程生活和工作的地方。但你也可以加入一个社区。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: You can pay $100, you join a community of meetups, a chat group, all this stuff. This chat group was hell to maintain. I mean, you know from communities, it's so much drama.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 你支付 100 美元，加入一个包含聚会、聊天群组等所有内容的社区。维护这个聊天群组简直是地狱。我是说，你了解社区的，里面有太多的戏剧性纷争（drama）。

[原文] [Host]: Wait. Is the AI content moderating the community now?

[译文] [Host]: 等等。现在是 AI 在审核社区内容吗？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Exactly. It was very hard for me to moderate this stuff, and it was very hard for me to be impartial.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 正是。对我来说，审核这些内容非常难，而且要做到公正（impartial）也很难。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: You have, like, politically different sides. And I feel I'm kind of in the middle, kind of neutral. But the moment you ban one side, they're like, "Oh, you're on that side."

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 里面有政治立场不同的双方。我觉得我算是中间派，比较中立。但一旦你封禁了其中一方，他们就会说，“噢，你站在他们那边。”

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And so with GPT, it's actually neutral. It's really good. I write down the rules of my chat group—and it's 40,000 people—and it doesn't ban anymore, it just mutes people for a day or 10 minutes, or—

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 而用了 GPT 之后，它实际上是中立的。这真的很好。我写下我聊天群组的规则——那可是 4 万人——它现在不再封号了，它只是把人禁言（mutes）一天或 10 分钟，或者——

[原文] [Host]: Like the debate moderators in the presidential debates.

[译文] [Host]: 就像总统辩论里的主持人一样。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yes, essentially. It just muted them. That's it. So, like, I can either hire people, or I can just use the GPT API.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 对，本质上就是这样。它只是把他们禁言了。就是这样。所以，我可以雇人，或者我也可以直接使用 GPT API。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I don't like hiring because I need to manage people, and I don't really like managing people because it's not my thing. I like to create things.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我不喜欢雇人，因为我需要管理他们，而我真的不喜欢管理人员，因为那不是我擅长的。我喜欢创造东西。

章节 10：投资哲学：指数基金与欧洲人的本土偏见

📝 本节摘要：

这一节不仅谈钱，更谈“守财”的智慧。Pieter 和主持人达成共识：与其把钱交给收费高昂的财富管理经理，不如直接购买标普 500 或 MSCI World 等指数基金。Pieter 吐槽了欧洲缺乏好的投资产品，并分享了父母典型的“母国偏见”（Home Country Bias）——宁愿买传统的荷兰皇家壳牌石油，也不相信美国的特斯拉。他最后给所有独立开发者一个忠告：创业赚钱的窗口期是有限的，必须学会理财，别让现金在不知不觉中消失。

[原文] [Host]: Well, in your book, you recommend that people build for their own understanding of the problems they have. Shouldn't you make an investment product?

[译文] [Host]: 既然在你的书中，你建议人们根据自己对问题的理解来构建产品。那你难道不应该做一个投资产品吗？

[原文] [Host]: You and Warren Buffet basically have the same views, which is, a lot of money managers and wealth management products... ...are very bad because they're charging you very high fees to invest in bad things.

[译文] [Host]: 你和沃伦·巴菲特（Warren Buffet）的观点基本一致，那就是，很多基金经理和财富管理产品…………非常糟糕，因为他们为了投资糟糕的东西而向你收取非常高的费用。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And actually, what the vast majority of people should do is buy a simple index, maybe the S&P 500 or the MSCI World or something, and then just leave their money there and don't touch it, and especially don't sell it during drawdowns.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 实际上，绝大多数人应该做的就是买一个简单的指数基金，也许是标普 500（S&P 500）或者 MSCI 世界指数之类的，然后把钱放在那里别动，尤其不要在市场下跌时卖出。

[原文] [Host]: Yeah, so Vanguard.

[译文] [Host]: 对，比如先锋集团（Vanguard）。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: But there aren't good products for Europeans, I feel like.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 但我感觉，并没有适合欧洲人的好产品。

[原文] [Host]: We buy them via Ireland. UCITS.

[译文] [Host]: 我们通常通过爱尔兰购买。UCITS（欧盟可转让证券集合投资计划）。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Sure, you do. But again, I feel like, you know, if you want an idea for the next business, I think good investment... ...good investment products for Europeans.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 当然，你们是这么做的。但我还是觉得，如果你想找下一个创业点子，我觉得好的投资……适合欧洲人的好的投资产品是个方向。

[原文] [Host]: Yeah, and there's this home country bias in stock purchasing, where people in Germany... ...buy German stocks.

[译文] [Host]: 是的，而且在股票购买中存在这种“母国偏见”（home country bias），比如德国人……会买德国股票。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Oh my god. My parents have this. This is crazy.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 噢天哪。我父母就是这样。这太疯狂了。

[原文] [Host]: Yeah, they're buying the Dutch stock market, probably.

[译文] [Host]: 是的，他们可能在买荷兰股市。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah, and I'm like, "You need to buy S&P 500 fund." They're like, "No, we're not gonna buy in America. We're gonna buy Royal Dutch Shell."

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 对，我就说：“你们得买标普 500 基金。”他们就说：“不，我们才不买美国的。我们要买皇家荷兰壳牌（Royal Dutch Shell）。”

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And they have all that money in Shell, in oil. And then, "Have you seen Tesla, electric cars now?" And they're like, "No, it's not gonna happen."

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 他们把所有的钱都投在壳牌，投在石油上。然后我说，“你们看到特斯拉了吗，现在的电动汽车？”他们就觉得：“不，那成不了气候。”

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I think investment is very important. Look, if you make money as any indie hacker has, even as a VC founder, it's very important to not spend all this money,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我认为投资非常重要。听着，如果你像任何独立黑客那样赚到了钱，哪怕是作为拿风投的创始人，非常重要的一点是不要把这些钱都花光。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: because you have a limited time in startups to make money, I think... ...and put this money in the market.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 因为我认为你在初创公司赚钱的时间窗口是有限的…………要把这些钱投入市场。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And most people don't know personal finance. Like, you don't get it in school. You save money, but your money, your cash, disappears the moment you have it.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 大多数人不懂个人理财。比如，学校里根本不教这个。你存钱，但这笔钱，你的现金，在你拥有的那一刻起就在（因通胀）消失。

章节 11：空调大作战：破解酒店温控器

📝 本节摘要：

在这一节中，话题变得轻松而生活化。作为一名经常旅行的黑客，Pieter 承认自己在面对现代酒店温控器（特别是西门子型号）时遭遇了“滑铁卢”——无论看多少 YouTube 破解教程都无法覆盖预设温度。两人对欧洲酒店和 Airbnb 普遍存在的“高温空调”（22-25摄氏度）表示了强烈的不满。Pieter 引用新加坡国父李光耀的观点，强调低温对高质量睡眠的重要性，这不仅是生理需求，更是一种对生活掌控权的执着。

[原文] [Host]: Yes. Are you one of those people who hacks the thermostat when you get to a hotel room?

[译文] [Host]: 是的。你是那种一进酒店房间就破解温控器的人吗？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I've tried, but I've never succeeded. I also have failed. I've watched the YouTube videos.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我试过，但我从来没成功过。我也失败了。我看过 YouTube 上的视频。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: But it's always some different model. Siemens.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 但总是不一样的型号。西门子（Siemens）。

[原文] [Host]: I think they're wise to such people, Like, they make it hard to override them now.

[译文] [Host]: 我觉得他们已经识破了这种人，比如，他们现在让你很难覆盖（override）设置。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: This air conditioning problem, it's such a big problem here. We need people in the comments to teach us how to override the hotel thermostats,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 这个空调问题，在这里是个大问题。我们需要评论区的人教教我们怎么覆盖酒店的温控器，

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: because the ones that are set to, like, 72 degrees Fahrenheit, or 22 degrees Celsius in Europe...

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 因为那些被设定在，比如华氏 72 度，或者欧洲的摄氏 22 度的……

[原文] [Host]: I mean, that should be— I mean, how many times do you get back to Europe? Often, right?

[译文] [Host]: 我是说，那应该是——我是说，你回欧洲几次？经常，对吧？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Often, yeah. It's a massive problem. The European hotels and air conditioning, it's not a good situation.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 经常，是的。这是个巨大的问题。欧洲的酒店和空调，情况不太妙。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: No, but it's Airbnbs, too. My friend went to an Airbnb in Italy, and it said, "Don't put it below 25 degrees because of regulation."

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 不，但这包括 Airbnb。我朋友去了意大利的一个 Airbnb，上面写着，“由于法规限制，请勿调低至 25 度以下。”

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It's like, this is unacceptable. And all the studies show, like, look at Lee Kuan Yew in Singapore...

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 这简直是无法接受的。而且所有的研究都表明，比如看看新加坡的李光耀（Lee Kuan Yew）……

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: For sleep, you actually need it pretty cold, yeah. You need it really cold. The sleep quality gets so good.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 为了睡眠，你其实需要环境相当冷，是的。你需要真的很冷。那样睡眠质量会变得非常好。

章节 12：欧洲加速主义（EU/acc）与监管困境

📝 本节摘要：

在本节中，Pieter 介绍了受美国“有效加速主义”（e/acc）启发而创立的“EU/acc”运动，旨在重燃欧洲对科技未来的乐观情绪。他犀利地指出，欧洲拥有顶尖的人才，却因繁重的监管（如 cookie 弹窗）和各国割裂的劳动法而触碰到发展的“天花板”。他分析了欧洲的政治死结：左派重监管，右派重民族主义，唯独缺乏既“亲商”又具备“联邦视野”的力量。最后，他直言当前的经济衰退或许是改革的契机，但必须首先扭转欧洲社会“仇富”的文化心态，重新认识财富即是对社会的价值贡献。

[原文] [Host]: You've talked about the EU accelerationism movement. What is required for EU accelerationism?

[译文] [Host]: 你谈到过欧盟加速主义（EU accelerationism）运动。欧盟加速主义需要什么条件？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: So I think it was two years ago or one year ago, I saw Beff Jezos, who's Guillaume Verdon. He made e/acc, which is effective accelerationism, which is like, "Let's accelerate America again."

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我想大概是两年前或者一年前，我看到了 Beff Jezos，也就是 Guillaume Verdon。他搞了 e/acc，也就是有效加速主义（effective accelerationism），主旨大概是“让我们再次加速美国的发展”。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Like, it's been a very depressing time, especially with Covid. Let's look at the benefits of technology and AI for the future,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 比如，这曾是一段非常令人沮丧的时期，特别是疫情期间。让我们着眼于技术和 AI 对未来的益处。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: and I thought, "That's amazing. We need to do the same for Europe," so I did EU/acc. Like, let's do this for Europe. Because Europe has the same kind of depressing, kind of down vibe about the future.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我当时就想，“这太棒了。我们需要为欧洲做同样的事，”所以我搞了 EU/acc。就像是，让我们为欧洲做这个吧。因为欧洲对未来也有那种同样的沮丧、低落的氛围。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And I crowdsourced this bug board where everybody could submit their ideas for how to save Europe, how to fix Europe.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我通过众包建立了一个“Bug 看板”，每个人都可以提交他们关于如何拯救欧洲、如何修复欧洲的想法。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I think number one is just, like, remove the regulatory burden for new businesses. And there's other stuff, like remove the cookie banner and stuff.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我认为第一条就是，移除新企业的监管负担。还有其他的东西，比如取消 Cookie 弹窗之类的。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: and I hope it'll be easier in Europe to start a business, run a business... ...As easy as it is in America.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我希望在欧洲创业、经营企业能变得更容易…………像在美国一样容易。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Nobody doubts European talent or intelligence, It's cool, smart, ambitious people. But there's a ceiling for them.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 没人怀疑欧洲的人才或智慧，这里有很酷、聪明、雄心勃勃的人。但他们面临着一个天花板。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: They can't go higher because they're getting pushed down by governments, by regulation. And it's like, what are you doing European countries? You have amazing people. You could compete easily.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 他们无法飞得更高，因为他们被政府、被监管压制着。这就像是，欧洲国家你们在搞什么？你们有很棒的人才。你们本可以轻松竞争的。

[原文] [Host]: I think there's kind of two things. One is where the regs are just bad. And the second is where the regulations are not standardized, where employment law is really annoyingly different across European countries.

[译文] [Host]: 我觉得有两方面。一个是监管本身就很糟糕。第二个是监管没有标准化，欧洲各国的劳动法差异大到令人恼火。

[原文] [Host]: So if you're a 10-person startup and you employ people across Europe, it's actually really cumbersome. Whereas in the United States, that's quite easy.

[译文] [Host]: 所以如果你是一个 10 人的初创公司，想要在欧洲各地雇人，实际上非常繁琐。而在美国，这相当容易。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Yeah. so the problem of Europe is...it's very funny. You have all these different countries, and you have the left side of the political spectrum are not very pro-business, they're more for regulation and for protecting people,

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 是的。所以欧洲的问题是……这很滑稽。你有所有这些不同的国家，政治光谱的左派不太亲商，他们更倾向于监管和保护人民，

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And then you have the right side, which is pro-business, but they're also nationalists. But the problem is, what we need is pro-business and federal Europe.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 然后你有右派，他们亲商，但他们也是民族主义者。但问题是，我们需要的是既亲商又支持联邦化欧洲的力量。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Like you need to be pro-Europe. Not nationalist, and you need to be pro-business. So it doesn't exist.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 比如你需要支持欧洲一体化。而不是民族主义，同时你还得亲商。但这（种力量）并不存在。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I think it's actually good that it's going so bad in Europe now, because it's almost like the patient is so sick— Never waste a crisis.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我觉得欧洲现在情况这么糟其实是件好事，这就好像病人已经病入膏肓了——永远不要浪费一次危机。

[原文] [Host]: What would you highlight as the ideas that need fixing?

[译文] [Host]: 你会重点指出哪些需要修正的观念？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I think the problem is if there are not a lot of opportunities in Europe for people to get jobs or start businesses, then they're gonna look down on Americans getting rich with these big businesses, because they're jealous.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我觉得问题在于，如果欧洲没有太多就业或创业的机会，人们就会看不起那些靠大企业致富的美国人，因为他们嫉妒。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And you need to change this idea that business is bad, that getting rich is bad. Getting rich is simply a representation of your added value to the world economy, in most cases.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 你需要改变这种认为“做生意是坏事”、“变富是坏事”的观念。在大多数情况下，变富仅仅是你对世界经济附加值的体现。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Generally, the money in your bank account is how much value you added to society. And in Europe, that completely does not... They really think different.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 通常来说，你银行账户里的钱代表了你为社会增加了多少价值。而在欧洲，完全不是……他们的想法真的很不一样。

章节 13：对Stripe的谏言：保持简单，勿忘初心

📝 本节摘要：

作为 Stripe 的重度用户，Pieter 直言不讳地指出了产品曾走过的弯路——在疫情后的一段时间里，API 变得过于复杂，仿佛是“为了工程师而设计，而非为了用户”。他强调，对于独立开发者而言，Stripe 的核心价值在于其极致的简洁性（如早期的一行代码集成），而非繁琐的企业级工作流。他提醒身为主持人的 Stripe 联合创始人，在公司扩张的同时，切勿丢失那份让产品起飞的“原始灵魂”，因为开发者只想快速收钱，然后回去安心写代码。

[原文] [Host]: If you were running Stripe, what would you fix?

[译文] [Host]: 如果让你来经营 Stripe，你会修复什么？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I think it's going really well recently. I think it wasn't going well after Covid.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我觉得最近发展得真的很好。但在新冠疫情之后那段时间，我觉得不太好。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It was a few years where the API was getting more and more complicated. We all complained about it.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 有几年 API 变得越来越复杂。我们都在抱怨这个。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: It felt like it was being run by engineers, not by people who actually used Stripe. Like, illogical defaults on the API.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 感觉它像是由工程师管理的，而不是由真正使用 Stripe 的人管理的。比如，API 上有一些不合逻辑的默认设置。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: One time, I had this bug, and it was from the Stripe API because it changed, and it didn't create a customer anymore. Everybody was a guest.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 有一次，我遇到了一个 bug，那是源于 Stripe API 的变更，它不再创建“客户”（customer）了。所有人都成了“访客”（guest）。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I was like, "Why would I want people to be a guest? I can't even curate them as a customer anymore." Those kind of things.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我当时就想，“我为什么要让人成为访客？我都不能把他们当客户来管理了。”就是这类事情。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: But now it seems much better, and it seems like sanity has returned.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 但现在看起来好多了，感觉理智又回来了。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: But it's scary, and it must be scary for you, because you're running a big company. It's very hard to manage a company from small to big and not become corporate.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 但这很可怕，对你来说肯定也很可怕，因为你在经营一家大公司。把一家公司从小做到大而不染上“大公司病”（corporate），是非常难的。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Of course, you're always corporate because you need to do B2B sales. But you need to keep the original Stripe mentality of, like, simple, right?

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 当然，你们总是企业化的，因为需要做 B2B 销售。但你需要保持 Stripe 最初的心态，比如，简单，对吧？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Stripe JS, it was one line of code you would add to your page, and you had a payment button, you know?

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: Stripe JS，以前只需在页面加一行代码，就有了支付按钮，你知道吗？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Keeping that is so important, keeping the original soul of the company. And I think you're doing a great job.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 保持这一点太重要了，保持公司的原始灵魂。我觉得你们做得很好。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Because essentially, I don't wanna go into Stripe to do anything. I want to go there to see how much money I make, and I wanna go back to my coffee and code a little bit.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 因为本质上，我不想进 Stripe 做任何事。我只想进去看看赚了多少钱，然后回去喝我的咖啡，写点代码。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I see all these new features on Stripe, making workflows and stuff, and I think it's very cool, but I don't have time to do this stuff because it's not that important for me.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我看到 Stripe 上所有这些新功能，制作工作流之类的，我觉得很酷，但我没时间搞这些，因为这对我来说没那么重要。

[原文] [Host]: I think our perspective is, you should be able to get started with anything instantly. You shouldn't even need to integrate an API.

[译文] [Host]: 我想我们的观点是，你应该能够立即上手做任何事。你甚至不需要集成 API。

[原文] [Host]: You should just be able to send a Payment Link, something like that.

[译文] [Host]: 你应该只要能发个支付链接（Payment Link）之类的就行。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Exactly. That's amazing.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 正是。那太棒了。

章节 14：展望未来：投资、灵活与感恩

📝 本节摘要：

访谈接近尾声，主持人抛出了关于未来五年的终极设想：这位死硬派的独立开发者是否会打破自己的誓言，接受软银投资或转型为 VC？Pieter 坦言自己已经开始尝试天使投资（如 AI 代码编辑器 Cursor），尽管这让他感觉像个“冒牌货”。他强调保持大脑“神经可塑性”的重要性，拒绝被过去的身份定义框死。最后，他以对当下生活的极致满足作结——与女友的旅行、对自由的感恩，以及对未知未来的开放态度。

[原文] [Host]: Last question. If we're back here in five years, will things be similar, where you've worked on a bunch of projects that are working really nicely?

[译文] [Host]: 最后一个问题。如果五年后我们再回到这里，情况会是一样的吗？比如你又做了一堆运行得很不错的项目？

[原文] [Host]: Will things be different, where maybe you've sold a few of the projects? Maybe you've started a VC-funded startup, and raised a million dollars from SoftBank.

[译文] [Host]: 还是说情况会有所不同，也许你卖掉了几个项目？也许你创办了一家 VC 资助的初创公司，并从软银（SoftBank）那里融了 100 万美元。

[原文] [Host]: That would be, like...

[译文] [Host]: 那将会是，就像……

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Exactly. But I'm just curious, what does the next five years hold?

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 确实。但我很好奇，未来五年会怎样？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Man, I have no clue.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 伙计，我完全不知道。

[原文] [Host]: It would be so funny if you become VC.

[译文] [Host]: 如果你成了 VC（风险投资人），那就有趣了。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I've been starting to invest, and every time I invest, I feel bad, because I feel like a faker, you know?

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我已经开始投资了，但每次我投资的时候，我都感觉很糟，因为我觉得自己像个冒牌货，你知道吗？

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: But I invested in Cursor, for example, very nice.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 但我投资了 Cursor，举个例子，非常不错。

[原文] [Host]: That seems like that that'll do okay for you.

[译文] [Host]: 那个看起来应该会让你赚到钱。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Well, who knows? But yeah, it's fun to... I think you need to be a little bit flexible with your neurons, and you can change your ways a little bit.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 谁知道呢？但是，是的，这就很有趣……我觉得你需要让你的神经稍微灵活一点，你可以稍微改变一下你的行事方式。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: And it's interesting to try different stuff. But, yeah, I'm really enjoying life with my girlfriend now. We're still traveling a lot. It's fun.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 尝试不同的东西很有趣。但是，是的，我现在真的很享受和我女朋友在一起的生活。我们依然经常旅行。这很有趣。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: We meet all these cool people here, and I want that to continue. I'm just very happy.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我们在这里遇到了所有这些很酷的人，我希望这种状态能持续下去。我只是非常快乐。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: I'm every day grateful to be able to live this life, and it's so good. So thank you.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 我每天都很感激能过上这样的生活，这太好了。所以谢谢你。

[原文] [Host]: Thanks for coming by.

[译文] [Host]: 谢谢你的到来。

[原文] [Pieter Levels]: Thank you for having me.

[译文] [Pieter Levels]: 谢谢邀请我。