章节 1：播客开场与背景介绍

📝 本节摘要：

本节为整段播客的开场白。节目一开始通过一段快剪（Teaser）直接抛出重磅观点：嘉宾 Boris 表示自己目前 100% 的代码都由 AI 生成，并预言“软件工程师”这一头衔即将消失，未来人人皆是“构建者”。随后，主持人 Lenny 正式介绍了本期嘉宾——Anthropic 旗下 Claude Code 的负责人 Boris Cherny，回顾了该产品发布一年来的爆发式增长与行业颠覆效应。在播报完对开发者工具 DX 和 Sentry 的赞助口播后，双方正式开启对谈。

[原文] [Boris]: 100% of my code is written by quad code i have not edited a single line by hand since November every day I ship 10 20 30 p requests so at the moment I have like five agents running while we're recording this

[译文] [Boris]: 我 100% 的代码都是由 Quad Code（注：即 Claude Code）编写的，自 11 月以来我没有手工编辑过一行代码，每天我都提交 10 个、20 个、30 个 P requests（注：Pull Requests，代码合并请求），所以在我们录制这档播客的当下，我大约有 5 个智能体（Agents）正在运行。

[原文] [Lenny]: yeah yeah do you miss writing code

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的，是的，你会怀念写代码吗？

[原文] [Boris]: i have never enjoyed coding as much as I do today because I don't have to deal with all the minutia productivity per engineer has increased 200% there's always this question should I learn to code in a year or two it's not going to matter coding is largely solved i imagine a world where everyone is able to program anyone can just build software anytime what's the next big shift to how software is written quad is starting to come up with ideas it's looking through feedback it's looking at bug reports it's looking at telemetry for bug fixes and things to ship a little more like a co-orker or something like that

[译文] [Boris]: 我从未像今天这样享受编程，因为我不需要再去处理那些繁枝末节。每位工程师的生产力（productivity）提高了 200%。人们总是会问这个问题：我应该学习编程吗？在一两年内，这将不再重要，编程（coding）很大程度上已经被解决（solved）了。我设想一个每个人都能编程的世界，任何人都可以随时构建软件（software）。软件编写方式的下一个巨大转变是什么？Quad 开始提出想法，它正在查看反馈，它正在查看漏洞报告（bug reports），它正在查看遥测数据（telemetry）以寻找需要修复的漏洞和准备发布的内容，这感觉有点像一个 co-orker（同事/Co-work），或者类似的东西。

[原文] [Lenny]: a lot of people listening to this are product managers and they're probably sweating

[译文] [Lenny]: 许多正在听这档节目的听众是产品经理（product managers），他们现在可能正在冒汗。

[原文] [Boris]: i think by the end of the year everyone's going to be a product manager and everyone codes the title software engineer is going to start to go away it's just going to be replaced by builder and it's going to be painful for a lot of people

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为到今年年底，每个人都将成为产品经理，而且每个人都会写代码。“软件工程师（software engineer）”这个头衔将会开始消失，它将仅仅被“构建者（builder）”所取代，这对很多人来说将会是痛苦的。

[原文] [Lenny]: today my guest is Boris Churnney head of Claude Code at Anthropic it is hard to describe the impact that Claude Code has had on the world around the time this episode comes out will be the one-year anniversary of Claude Code and in that short time it has completely transformed the job of a software engineer and it is now starting to transform the jobs of many other functions in tech which we talk about cloud code itself is also a massive driver of anthropic overall growth over the past year they just raised a round at over $350 billion and as Boris mentions the growth of Claude Code itself is still accelerating just in the past month their daily active users has doubled boris is also just a really interesting thoughtful deepinking human and during this conversation we discover we were born in the same city in Ukraine

[译文] [Lenny]: 今天我的嘉宾是 Anthropic 旗下 Claude Code 的负责人 Boris Churnney（注：即 Boris Cherny）。很难描述 Claude Code 对世界产生的影响。在这期节目播出的时候，将会是 Claude Code 推出一周年纪念，而在那短短的时间里，它已经彻底改变了软件工程师的工作，并且现在它正开始改变科技领域许多其他职能部门的工作，这也是我们会聊到的。Cloud Code（注：即 Claude Code）本身也是过去一年 Anthropic 整体增长的巨大驱动力，他们刚刚筹集了一轮超过 3500 亿美元（估值）的融资。正如 Boris 所提到的，Claude Code 本身的增长仍在加速，仅仅在过去一个月里，他们的日活跃用户（daily active users）就翻了一番。Boris 也是一个非常有趣、深思熟虑且思想深邃的人类，在这次交谈中，我们发现我们出生在乌克兰的同一座城市。

[原文] [Boris]: that is so funny i had no idea

[译文] [Boris]: 那真是太有趣了，我完全不知道。

[原文] [Lenny]: a huge thank you to Ben Man Jenny Wen and Mike Griger for suggesting topics for this conversation don't forget to check out lennisprodpass.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers let's get into it after a short word from our wonderful sponsors

[译文] [Lenny]: 非常感谢 Ben Man、Jenny Wen 和 Mike Griger 为这次对话建议的话题。别忘了访问 lennisprodpass.com 获取专为 Lenny 新闻快报订阅者提供的超棒独家优惠。在听完我们出色的赞助商的一小段话后，让我们直接进入正题。

[原文] [Lenny]: today's episode is brought to you by DX the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers to thrive in the AI era organizations need to adapt quickly but many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like which tools are working how are they being used what's actually driving value dx provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift with DX companies like Dropbox Booking.com Adion and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity to learn more visit DX's website at getdx.com/lenny that's getdx.com/lenny

[译文] [Lenny]: 今天的节目由 DX 赞助播出，DX 是由顶尖研究人员设计的开发者智能平台（developer intelligence platform）。为了在 AI 时代蓬勃发展，各类组织需要快速适应，但许多组织领导者在回答诸如哪些工具在起作用、它们是如何被使用的、究竟是什么在驱动价值等紧迫问题时遇到了困难。DX 提供了领导者应对这种转变所需的数据和洞察。通过 DX，像 Dropbox、Booking.com、Adion 和 Intercom 这样的公司深入了解了 AI 是如何为他们的开发者提供价值的，以及 AI 对工程生产力产生了什么影响。想了解更多信息，请访问 DX 的网站 getdx.com/lenny，也就是 getdx.com/lenny。

[原文] [Lenny]: applications break in all kinds of ways crashes slowdowns regressions and the stuff that you only see once real users show up sentry catches it all see what happened where and why down to the commit that introduced the error the developer who shipped it and the exact line of code all in one connected view i've definitely tried the five tabs and Slack thread approach to debugging this is better sentry shows you how the request moved what ran what slowed down and what users saw seir Sentry's AI debugging agent takes it from there it uses all of that Sentry context to tell you the root cause suggest a fix and even opens a PR for you it also reviews your PR and flags any breaking changes with fixes ready to go try Sentry and SER for free at centry.io/lenny and use code Lenny for $100 in Sentry credits that's s n t r y.io/lenny

[译文] [Lenny]: 应用程序会以各种方式发生故障：崩溃（crashes）、减速（slowdowns）、回归（regressions），以及那些只有在真实用户出现时你才会看到的问题。Sentry 能捕捉到这一切。去看看发生了什么、在哪里发生、为什么发生，精确定位到引入错误的提交（commit）、发布它的开发者以及确切的那行代码，所有这些都在一个相连的视图中。我绝对尝试过用开五个标签页加 Slack 消息群聊的方式来调试（debugging），但这个产品更好。Sentry 向你展示了请求是如何移动的、什么代码运行了、哪里变慢了以及用户看到了什么。seir（注：即 Sentry 的 AI 工具），Sentry 的 AI 调试智能体会接管剩下的工作，它利用所有这些 Sentry 的上下文（context）来告诉你根本原因（root cause），建议一个修复方案，甚至为你开启一个 PR（代码合并请求）。它还会审查你的 PR，并标记出任何可能带有破坏性更改的地方，且已经准备好修复方案。前往 centry.io/lenny 免费试用 Sentry 和 SER，使用折扣码 Lenny 获得 100 美元的 Sentry 积分，网址是 s n t r y.io/lenny。

[原文] [Lenny]: boris thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast

[译文] [Lenny]: Boris，非常感谢你能来，欢迎来到这档播客。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah thanks for having me on

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，感谢邀请我来。

章节 2：短暂离开与回归：寻找 Anthropic 的使命感

📝 本节摘要：

主持人 Lenny 抛出了一个犀利的问题，询问 Boris 六个月前为何在加入明星代码编辑器公司 Cursor 仅仅两周后，又光速闪回 Anthropic。Boris 坦诚地分享了这段“史上最快跳槽”的经历。他表示虽然 Cursor 拥有极其出色的团队和产品，但他很快意识到自己内心深处真正渴望的是 Anthropic 的核心价值观——“AI 安全（Safety）”。这种强烈的使命感是他获得职业幸福感不可或缺的基石，哪怕是再酷的产品也无法替代。

[原文] [Lenny]: i want to start with a a spicy question about 6 months ago I don't know if people even remember this you actually left Anthropic you joined Curser and then two weeks later you went back to Anthropic what happened there i don't think I've ever heard the actual story,

[译文] [Lenny]: 我想从一个火辣的问题开始，大约 6 个月前，我不知道人们是否还记得这件事，你实际上离开了 Anthropic，你加入了 Curser（注：即 Cursor），然后两周后你又回到了 Anthropic，那里发生了什么？我想我从来没听过真实的故事。,

[原文] [Boris]: it's the fastest job change that I've ever had um I joined Cursor because I'm a big fan of the product and honestly I met the team and I was just really impressed uh they're an awesome team uh I still I still think they're awesome and they're just building really cool stuff and kind of they they saw where AI coding was going I think before a lot of people did so the idea of building good product was just very exciting for me

[译文] [Boris]: 这是我经历过的最快的工作变动。嗯，我加入 Cursor 是因为我是该产品的忠实粉丝，老实说，我见到了他们的团队，给我留下了极其深刻的印象。呃，他们是一支很棒的团队，呃，我仍然，我仍然认为他们很棒，他们正在构建非常酷的东西，而且某种程度上，他们看到了 AI 编程（AI coding）的未来走向，我认为他们比很多人都看得早，所以构建优秀产品的想法对我来说非常令人兴奋。

[原文] [Boris]: i think as soon as I got there what I started to realize is what I really missed about Ant was the mission and that's actually what originally drove me to Ant also cuz uh but before I joined Anthropic I was you know I was working in big tech and then I was at some point I wanted to work at a at a lab to just help shape the future of this crazy thing that that we're building in some way and the thing that drew me to anthropic was the mission and it was you know it's all about safety,

[译文] [Boris]: 我想我一到那里就开始意识到，我真正怀念关于 Ant（注：Anthropic 的简称）的是它的使命（mission），而这实际上也是最初驱使我加入 Ant 的原因，因为，呃，在加入 Anthropic 之前，你知道，我在大型科技公司（big tech）工作，然后在某个时刻，我想在一个实验室（lab）工作，以某种方式帮助塑造我们正在构建的这个疯狂事物的未来，而吸引我来到 Anthropic 的正是它的使命，你知道的，那一切都关乎安全（safety）。,

[原文] [Boris]: and when you talk to people at Enthropic just like find someone in the hallway if you ask them why they're here the answer is always going to be safety um and so this kind of like missiondrivenness just really really resonated with me and I just know personally it's something I need in order to be happy um and I that's just a thing that I really missed and I found that you know whatever the work might be no matter how exciting even if it's building a really cool product it's just not really a substitute for that um so for me it was actually u it was pretty obvious that that I was missing that pretty quick

[译文] [Boris]: 当你和 Enthropic（注：即 Anthropic）的人交谈时，就像在走廊里随便找个人，如果你问他们为什么在这里，答案永远都是安全（safety）。嗯，所以这种使命驱动（missiondrivenness）真的、真的引起了我的共鸣，我个人深知这是我获得快乐所必需的东西。嗯，而我，那只是我真正怀念的东西，而且我发现，你知道，无论工作可能是什么，无论多么令人兴奋，即使是在构建一个非常酷的产品，它也真的无法替代那种感觉。嗯，所以对我来说，实际上，呃，很明显我很快就察觉到我缺失了那部分。

章节 3：Claude Code 的爆发与软件工程的剧变

📝 本节摘要：

本节对话从探讨 Claude Code 推出一周年所带来的惊人行业冲击开始。主持人 Lenny 引用报告指出，当前 GitHub 上 4% 的代码提交已由 AI 生成，并预言到年底这一比例将达到五分之一，软件开发方式正在经历剧变。Boris 进一步指出，最疯狂的不是当前的数字，而是不断加速的增长率。随后，他回顾了 Claude Code 作为一个“内部黑客项目（Hack）”的起源，并分享了 Anthropic 团队打造安全 AI 的演进路径：让模型从“擅长编程”进化到“熟练使用工具”，再到最终掌握“计算机操作”。为了更深入地理解底层模型，Boris 还特意抽出一周时间参与“后训练（Post-training）”研究。这段开发经历不仅让他意外发现模型在没有任何预设指引下，仅靠批处理工具就能识别并报告他正在听的音乐，也促使团队做出了一个重要的产品决策——在初期坚持使用终端（Terminal）作为交互界面，以跟上模型极速迭代的步伐。

[原文] [Lenny]: okay so let me follow the thread of just coming back to anthropic and the work you've done there this podcast is going to come out around the year anniversary of launching cloud code so I'm going to spend a little time just reflecting on the impact that you've had there's um this report that recently came out that I'm sure you saw by semi analysis that showed that 4% of all GitHub commits are authored by cloud code now and they predicted it'll be a fifth of all code commits on GitHub by the end of the year the way they put it is while we blinked AI consumed all software development the day that we're recording this Spotify just put out this uh headline that their best developers haven't written a line of code since December thanks to AI more and more of the most advanced senior engineers including you are sharing the fact that you don't write code anymore that it's all AI generated and many aren't even looking at code anymore is how far we've gotten in large part thanks to this little project that you started and that your team has scaled over the past year i'm curious just to hear your reflections on on this past year and the impact that your work has had

[译文] [Lenny]: 好的，所以让我顺着刚刚回到 Anthropic 以及你在那里所做的工作这个话题继续说下去。这档播客播出时，大约正好是推出 Cloud Code（注：即 Claude Code）一周年纪念，所以我打算花一点时间反思一下你所产生的影响。最近出炉了一份报告，我敢肯定你看到了，是 SemiAnalysis 发布的，上面显示目前 GitHub 上所有的提交（commits）中有 4% 是由 Cloud Code 编写的，而且他们预测到年底，它将占到 GitHub 上所有代码提交的五分之一。他们的说法是，就在我们眨眼之间，AI 已经吞噬了所有的软件开发（software development）。就在我们录制节目的今天，Spotify 刚刚发布了这个呃，头条新闻，说由于 AI 的存在，他们最优秀的开发者自 12 月以来就没有写过一行代码。越来越多最先进的资深工程师（senior engineers），包括你在内，都在分享这样一个事实：你不再写代码了，全都是 AI 生成的，而且许多人甚至都不再看代码了，这就是我们现在走到的地步。很大程度上要归功于你启动的这个小项目，以及你的团队在过去一年里将其扩大了规模。我很好奇想听听你对过去这一年以及你的工作所产生的影响有什么反思。

[原文] [Boris]: these numbers are just totally crazy right like four 4% of all commits in the world is just way more than I imagined and like like you said it still feels like the starting point um these are also just public commits so we actually think if you look at private repositories it's quite a bit higher than that and I I think the craziest thing for me isn't even the number that we're at right now but the pace at which we're growing because if you look at Quad Code's growth rate kind of across any metric it's continuing to accelerate um so it's not just going up it's going up faster and faster

[译文] [Boris]: 这些数字简直太疯狂了，对吧。世界上所有提交中占到 4%，这远远超出了我的想象，而且就像你说的，感觉这仍然只是个起点。嗯，这些还只是公开的提交（public commits），所以我们实际上认为，如果你去看私有仓库（private repositories），这个比例会比那高得多。而且我，我认为对我来说最疯狂的事情甚至都不是我们现在的数字，而是我们增长的速度。因为如果你去看 Quad Code 在任何指标上的增长率，它都在继续加速，嗯，所以它不仅仅是在上升，而是上升得越来越快。

[原文] [Boris]: when I first started Quad Code it was just going to be a like it was just supposed to be a little hack um you know we we broadly knew at Enthropic that we wanted to get a we wanted to ship some kind of coding product and you know for enthropic for a long time we were building the models in this way that kind of fit our mental model of the way that we build safe hi where the model starts by being really good at coding then it gets really good at tool use then it gets really good at computer use roughly this is like the trajectory uh and you know we've been working on this for a long time and when you look at the team that I started on it was called the anthropic labs team uh and actually Mike Kger and you know Ben man they just kicked this team off again uh for kind of round two the team built some pretty cool stuff so we built quad code we built MCP we built the desktop app so you can kind of see the seeds of this idea you know like it's coding then it's tool use then it's computer use

[译文] [Boris]: 当我最初启动 Quad Code 时，它本来只是打算成为一个，就像它本来应该只是一个小小的黑客项目（hack）。嗯，你知道，在 Enthropic（注：即 Anthropic）我们大体上知道，我们想要弄一个，我们想要发布某种编程产品（coding product），而且你知道，对于 Anthropic 来说，很长一段时间以来，我们一直以一种符合我们构建安全 AI 的心智模型（mental model）的方式在构建模型，即模型一开始非常擅长编程（coding），然后变得非常擅长使用工具（tool use），接着变得非常擅长使用计算机（computer use）。这大致就是我们的轨迹。呃，你知道，我们在这个方向上已经努力了很长一段时间，而且当你看我最初加入的那个团队时，它叫作 Anthropic Labs 团队。呃，实际上 Mike Kger 和，你知道的，Ben Man，他们刚刚再次启动了这个团队，呃，算是开启了第二轮。这个团队构建了一些非常酷的东西，所以我们构建了 Quad Code，我们构建了 MCP，我们构建了桌面应用（desktop app），所以你能从中看到这个想法的种子，你知道，就像它是编程，然后是工具使用，然后是计算机使用。

[原文] [Boris]: and the reason this matters for anthropic is uh because of safety it's kind of again just back to that AI is getting more and more powerful it's getting more and more capable the thing that's happened in the last year is that for at least For engineers the AI doesn't just write the code it it's not just a conversation partner but it actually uses tools it acts in the world um and I think now with co-work we're starting to see the transition for non-technical folks also um for a lot of people that use conversational AI this might be the first time that they're using the thing that actually acts it can actually use your Gmail it can use your Slack it can do all these things for you and it's quite good at it um and it's only going to get better from here

[译文] [Boris]: 而这之所以对 Anthropic 如此重要，呃，是因为安全（safety）。这某种程度上又回到了那一点：AI 正变得越来越强大，变得越来越有能力。过去一年发生的事情是，至少对于工程师来说，AI 不仅仅是写代码，它不仅仅是一个对话伙伴（conversation partner），而且它实际上在运用工具，它在这个世界上采取行动（acts in the world）。嗯，而且我认为现在有了 co-work，我们开始看到针对非技术人员的这种转变。嗯，对于很多使用对话式 AI 的人来说，这可能是他们第一次使用能够真正采取行动的东西，它实际上可以使用你的 Gmail，它可以使用你的 Slack，它可以为你做所有这些事情，而且做得相当好。嗯，而且从现在开始它只会变得更好。

[原文] [Boris]: so I think for anthropic for a long time there was this feeling that we wanted to build something but it wasn't obvious what and so uh when I joined ant I spent one month kind of hacking and you know built a bunch of like weird prototypes most of them didn't ship and you know weren't even close to shipping it was just kind of understanding the boundaries of what the model can do then I spent a month doing post- training um so to understand kind of the research side of it and I think honestly that's just for me as an engineer I find that to do good work you really have to understand the layer under the layer at which you work and with traditional engineering work you know if you're working on product you want to understand the infrastructure the runtime the virtual machine the language kind of whatever that is the system that you're building on but uh yeah if you're like if you're working in AI you just really have to understand the model to some degree to to do good work

[译文] [Boris]: 所以我认为对于 Anthropic 来说，很长一段时间都有这样一种感觉：我们想要构建点什么，但并不清楚要构建什么。因此，呃，当我加入 Ant 时，我花了一个月的时间来捣鼓代码（hacking），你知道，构建了一堆像奇怪的原型（prototypes），它们大部分都没有发布，你知道，甚至远远达不到发布的标准，那仅仅是为了理解模型能力的边界。然后我花了一个月时间做后训练（post-training），嗯，为了理解其研究层面的东西。而且我认为，老实说，那只是因为对我作为一名工程师而言，我发现为了做好工作，你真的必须理解你所工作那一层的下一层。在传统的工程工作中，你知道，如果你在做产品，你会想要了解基础设施（infrastructure）、运行时（runtime）、虚拟机（virtual machine）、语言（language）或者其他任何你赖以构建系统的底层东西。但是，呃，是的，如果你像，如果你在 AI 领域工作，你真的必须在某种程度上理解模型，才能做好工作。

[原文] [Boris]: so I took a little detour to do that and then I came back and just started prototyping what eventually became quad code uh and the very first version of it I I have like a there's like a video recording of the summer because I recorded this demo and I posted it it was called QuadCLI back then and I just kind of showed off how it used a few tools and the shocking thing for me was that I gave it a batch tool and uh it just was able to use that to write code to tell me what music I'm listening to when I asked it like what music am I listening to and this is the craziest thing right cuz it's like there's no we I I didn't instruct the model to say you know use you know this tool for this or kind of do whatever the model was given this tool and I figured out how to use it to answer this question that I had that I wasn't even sure if it could answer what music am I listening to

[译文] [Boris]: 所以我绕了一点弯路去做了那件事，然后我回来了，并开始对最终成为 Quad Code 的东西进行原型设计。呃，关于它的第一个版本，我，我有一个，夏天的时候有一段录像记录，因为我录下了这个演示（demo）并把它发布了。它当时叫 QuadCLI，我只是在里面稍微展示了它是如何使用几个工具的。而令我震惊的是，我给了它一个批处理工具（batch tool），呃，它竟然能够使用那个工具写出代码，在我问它“我在听什么音乐？”的时候，告诉我我在听什么音乐。这是最疯狂的事情，对吧，因为它就像没有，我们，我，我没有去指导模型说，你知道，为了这个目标去使用这个工具，或者去做任何事情。模型被赋予了这个工具，然后我自己找出了如何用它来回答我提出的这个问题，我甚至都不确定它能否回答：“我在听什么音乐？”。

[原文] [Boris]: and so I I I started prototyping this a little bit more um I made a post about it and I announced it internally and it got two likes that's the that was that was the extent of the reaction at the time because I think people internally you know like when you think of coding tools you think of like you think of IDE you think about kind of all these pretty sophisticated environments no one thought that this thing could be terminal based um that's sort of a weird way to design it and that wasn't really the intention but uh you know from the start I built it in a terminal because you know for the first couple months it was just me so it was just the easiest way to build uh and for me this is actually a pretty important product lesson right is like you want to underresource things a little bit at the start

[译文] [Boris]: 于是我，我，我开始对这个进行更多的原型设计。嗯，我写了一篇关于它的帖子并在内部宣布了这件事，结果它获得了两个赞。那就是，那就是当时反应的全部程度了。因为我认为内部人员，你知道的，当你想到编程工具时，你会想到比如，你会想到 IDE，你会想到所有这些相当复杂的环境，没有人认为这东西可以是基于终端（terminal based）的。嗯，那是一种有点奇怪的设计方式，而且那其实也并不是初衷，但是，呃，你知道从一开始我就把它建在一个终端里，因为，你知道，头几个月只有我一个人，所以那只是最简单的构建方式。呃，对我来说，这实际上是一个非常重要的产品经验（product lesson），对吧，就是你想要在开始时让事情稍微有些资源不足（underresource）。

[原文] [Boris]: then we started thinking about what other form factors we should build and we actually decided to stick with the terminal for a while and the biggest reason was the model is improving so quickly we felt that there wasn't really another form factor that could keep up with it and honestly this was just me kind of like struggling with kind of like what should we build you know like for the last year quad code has just been all I think about and so just like late at night this is just something I was thinking about like okay the model is continuing to improve what do we do how can we possibly keep up and the terminal was honestly just the only idea that I had

[译文] [Boris]: 然后我们开始思考我们应该构建什么其他的形态（form factors），而我们实际上决定在一段时间内坚持使用终端。最大的原因是模型进步得太快了，我们觉得真的没有其他形态能跟上它的步伐。老实说，这仅仅是我当时在挣扎的一种状态，想着我们该构建什么，你知道，就像在过去的一年里，Quad Code 是我全部心思所在，所以在深夜里我总是在想这些，比如好吧，模型在不断进步，我们该怎么做？我们怎么可能跟得上？而终端，老实说，是我当时唯一的主意。

章节 4：下放控制权：100%由AI编写代码的日常

📝 本节摘要：

本节重点探讨了在过去一年里，AI 对软件工程引发的地震级改变。Boris 分享了 Claude Code 在经历过初期的小范围受众后，由于“潜在需求（Latent Demand）”的爆发而迅速风靡的过程。更令人惊叹的是，Anthropic 的联合创始人基于对“扩展定律（Scaling Laws）”的执念，精准预判了如今的局面——目前 Boris 已经完全实现了 100% 的 AI 编程，每天通过 AI 提交 10 到 30 个代码合并请求，同时由 AI 进行自动化的代码审查。在此基础上，两人探讨了 AI 的“下一个前沿”，即开始主导创意构思、漏洞修复甚至项目管理等产品级任务。最后，Boris 用一个排查内存泄漏的生动案例，提醒那些资深工程师：请停止旧有的工作惯性，大胆把控制权完全交给最新一代的 AI。

[原文] [Boris]: and uh yeah it ended up catching on after after I released it pretty quickly it became a hit at Anthropic and you know the the daily active users just went vertical and really early on actually before I launched it Ben man uh nudged me to make a DAU chart and I was like you know it's like kind of early maybe you know should we really do it right now and he was like "Yeah." And so the the chart just went vertical pretty immediately

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，是的，在我发布它之后它很快就流行起来了，它很快在 Anthropic 内部大受欢迎。你知道，日活跃用户（DAU）直接呈垂直增长。实际上在很早的时候，在我正式推出它之前，Ben Man 呃，督促我做一个 DAU 图表，我当时的反应是，你知道这有点早，也许你知道，我们现在真的应该做这个吗？他说是的。于是那个图表几乎立刻就呈垂直上升了。

[原文] [Boris]: uh and then in February we released it externally actually something that people don't really remember is Quad Code was not initially a hit when we released it it it got a bunch of users there was a lot of early adopters that got it immediately but it actually took many months for everyone to really understand what this thing is just again it's like it's just so different and when I think about it kind of part of the reason quad code works is this idea of latent demand where we bring the tool to where people are and it makes existing workflows a little bit easier but also because it's it's in a terminal it's like a little surprising it's a little alien in this way so you have to you have to kind of be open-minded and you had to learn to use it

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，然后在二月份我们把它对外发布了。实际上人们不太记得的一点是，当我们在外部发布 Quad Code 时，它最初并没有引起轰动。它获得了一批用户，有很多早期采用者（early adopters）立刻获取了它，但实际上大家花了几个月的时间才真正理解这东西到底是什么。重申一下，它就是太与众不同了。当我想起这个时，Quad Code 能够成功的部分原因在于“潜在需求（latent demand）”这个概念，我们将工具带到了人们所在的地方，它让现有的工作流（workflows）变得稍微容易了一些。但也因为它是处于终端（terminal）里的，这让人有点惊讶，这种方式让人感觉有些陌生（alien），所以你必须，你必须保持一种开放的心态，并且你必须学习如何使用它。

[原文] [Boris]: and of course now you know quad code is available you know in the iOS and Android quad app it's available in the desktop app it's available on the website it's available as IDE extensions in Slack and GitHub you know all these places where engineers are it's a little more familiar but that wasn't the starting point so yeah I mean at the beginning it was kind of a surprise that this thing was even useful

[译文] [Boris]: 当然现在，你知道的，Quad Code 可以在 iOS 和 Android 的 Quad 应用程序中使用了，它在桌面应用程序（desktop app）中可用，在网站上可用，它作为 IDE 扩展（IDE extensions）在 Slack 和 GitHub 中也可用，你知道，所有这些工程师们所在的、他们更为熟悉的地方，但那并不是起点。所以，是的，我的意思是，在开始的时候，这东西居然能有用，这本身就是一个惊喜。

[原文] [Boris]: and uh you know as the team grew as the product grew as it started to become more and more useful to people just people around the world from you know small startups to the biggest fang companies started using it and they started giving feedback and I think just reflecting back it's been such a humbling experience cuz we just we keep learning from our users and just the most exciting thing is like you know none of us really know what we're doing um and we're just trying to figure out along with everyone else and the single best signal for that is just feedback from users um so that's just been the best I' I've been surprised so many times

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，你知道，随着团队的壮大，随着产品的成长，随着它开始对人们变得越来越有用，全世界的人们，从你知道的小型初创公司到最大的 FAANG（科技巨头）公司开始使用它，并且他们开始提供反馈。我想现在回想起来，这是一段让人保持谦卑的经历，因为我们只是，我们不断地从我们的用户那里学习，而最令人兴奋的事情是，你知道，我们中其实没有人真正知道我们在做什么。嗯，我们只是在和大家一起试图弄清楚，而这方面唯一最好的信号就是来自用户的反馈。嗯，所以那真的是最棒的，我已经无数次感到惊喜了。

[原文] [Lenny]: it's incredible how fast something can change in today's world you launched this a year ago and it wasn't the first time people could use AI to code but uh in a year the entire profession of software engineering has dramatically changed like there's all these predictions oh AI is going to be written 100% AI's code is going to be written by AI everyone's like no that's crazy what are you talking about now it's like of course it's happening exactly as they said it's just so things move so fast and change so fast now

[译文] [Lenny]: 在当今世界，事物的变化速度真是令人难以置信。你在一年前推出了这个产品，而这并不是人们第一次使用 AI 来写代码，但是呃，在一年内，整个软件工程（software engineering）的职业面貌发生了戏剧性的改变。就像之前有所有这些预测：哦，AI 将 100% 编写代码，AI 的代码将由 AI 来写。当时每个人的反应都是：不，那太疯狂了，你在说什么？而现在人们的反应是：当然，这正在发生，正如他们所说的那样。一切发展得如此之快，改变如此之快。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah it's really fast back at uh back at code with quad back in May that was like our first uh you know like developer conference that we did as Enthropic um I did a short talk and in the Q&A after the talk people were asking what are your predictions for the end of the year and my prediction back in May of 2025 was by the end of the year you might not need an ID to code anymore and we're going to start to see engineers not doing this and I remember the room like audibly gasped it was such a crazy prediction

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，真的非常快。回顾呃，回顾五月份的 Code with Quad 活动，那是我们作为 Enthropic（注：即 Anthropic）举办的第一次呃，你知道的，类似开发者大会（developer conference）的活动。嗯，我做了一个简短的演讲，在演讲后的问答环节中，人们问我对于年底有什么预测。我在 2025 年 5 月的预测是，到年底你可能不再需要 IDE（注：原文发音为 ID，实指 IDE，集成开发环境）来写代码了，我们将开始看到工程师们不再做这件事。我记得当时整个房间发出了清晰可闻的倒吸冷气声，这在当时是个如此疯狂的预测。

[原文] [Boris]: but I think like at anthropic like this is just the way the way we think about things is exponentials and this is like very deep in the DNA like if you look at our co-founders like three of them were the first three authors on the scaling laws paper um so we really just think in exponentials and if you kind of look at the exponential of the percent of code that was written by quad at that point if you just trace the line it's pretty obvious we're going to cross 100% by the end of the year even if it just does not match intuition at all um and so all I did was trace the line and yeah in November that you know that happened for me personally and that's been the case since and we're starting to see that for a lot of different customers too

[译文] [Boris]: 但我认为，就像在 Anthropic，这就是我们思考事物的方式，即指数级思考（exponentials），而且这深深植根于我们的 DNA 中。就像如果你看看我们的联合创始人，其中三位是扩展定律（scaling laws）论文的前三作者。嗯，所以我们真的就是以指数级的方式思考。如果你看看当时由 Quad 编写的代码百分比的指数曲线，如果你只是顺着这条线往下推演，很明显我们在年底前就会跨越 100% 的节点，即便这完全不符合直觉。嗯，所以我所做的只是顺着这条线推演。并且，是的，在 11 月，你知道那件事就真实地发生在我个人身上了，从那以后就一直如此，并且我们也开始在许多不同的客户身上看到同样的情况。

[原文] [Lenny]: i thought was really interesting what you just shared there about kind of the journey is this kind of idea of just playing around and seeing what happens this came up comes up with open claw a lot just like Peter was playing around and just like a thing happen and it feels like that's a central kind of ingredient to a lot of the biggest innovations in AI is people just sitting around trying stuff to pushing the models further than most other people

[译文] [Lenny]: 我觉得你刚才分享的这段旅程中很有趣的一点，就是这种只是“随便玩玩然后看看会发生什么”的想法。这在 Open Claw（注：此处可能指代某个模型研究分支）的开发中经常出现，就像 Peter 只是在随便玩玩，然后事情就发生了。感觉这似乎是 AI 领域许多最伟大创新（innovations）的一个核心要素，就是人们坐在那里尝试各种东西，把模型的极限推得比大多数其他人更远。

[原文] [Boris]: i mean this the thing about innovation right like you can't uh you can't force it there's no road map for innovation um you just have to give people space you have to give them maybe the word is like safety so it's like psychological safety that it's okay to fail it's okay if 80% of the ideas are bad um you also have to hold them accountable a bit so if the idea is bad you you know you cut your losses move on to the next idea instead of investing more

[译文] [Boris]: 我的意思是，这就是创新的特性，对吧。就像你不能呃，你不能强迫它发生，创新没有路线图（road map）。嗯，你只能给人们提供空间，你必须给他们，也许这个词叫作安全（safety），就像心理安全感（psychological safety），让他们知道失败是可以的，哪怕 80% 的主意都是糟糕的也没关系。嗯，你同时也得让他们承担一点责任，所以如果主意很糟糕，你，你知道的，及时止损，转移到下一个想法上，而不是投入更多。

[原文] [Boris]: uh in the early days of quad code I had no idea that this thing would be useful at all cuz even in February when we released it it was writing maybe I don't know like 20% of my code not more and even in May it was writing maybe 30% i was still using you know curtzer for most of my code and it only crossed 100% in November so it took a while but even from the earliest day it just felt like I was on to something and I was just spending like every night every weekend hockey on this and luckily my you know my wife was very supportive um but it it just felt like it was on to something it wasn't obvious what and and sometimes you know you find a thread you just have to pull on it

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，在 Quad Code 的早期，我完全不知道这东西会不会有用，因为即便在二月份我们发布它的时候，它大概也只是在写，我不知道，也许我 20% 的代码，不会更多了。甚至在五月份，它大概写了 30%，我大部分的代码依然在使用，你知道的，Curtzer（注：即 Cursor）来编写。它直到 11 月才跨过 100% 的大关，所以这花了一段时间。但即使从最早期开始，就感觉我好像触碰到了某个关键的东西（on to something），然后我就像是在每个夜晚、每个周末都沉浸在上面捣鼓代码（hockey，此处指 hacking）。幸运的是，我，你知道，我的妻子非常支持我。嗯，但那种感觉就是，你触碰到了某个东西，虽然不清楚具体是什么，而有时，你知道的，当你发现一根线头时，你只需要去顺藤摸瓜（pull on it）。

[原文] [Lenny]: so at this point 100% of your code is written by cloud code is that is that kind of the current state of your coding

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以在这个节点，你 100% 的代码都是由 Cloud Code 写的，这就是你目前编程的状态吗？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah so 100% of my code is written by cloud code um I am a fairly prolific coder um and this has been the case even when I worked back at Instagram i was like one of the top few most productive engineers um and that's actually that's still the case uh here at Anthropic

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，所以目前我 100% 的代码都是由 Cloud Code 写的。嗯，我是一个相当多产的程序员（prolific coder），嗯，甚至在我在 Instagram 工作时就是这样，我大概是最高产的几个工程师之一。嗯，实际上，在 Anthropic 这里情况依然如此。

[原文] [Lenny]: wow even as head of head of the team

[译文] [Lenny]: 哇，即使作为团队的负责人也是这样？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah yeah do still do a lot of coding um and so every you know every day I ship like 10 20 30 p requests something like that

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，是的，我仍然做大量的编程工作。嗯，所以每天，你知道，每天我都会发布大概 10 个、20 个、30 个 P requests（代码合并请求），大概是这样的数量。

[原文] [Lenny]: every day

[译文] [Lenny]: 每天？

[原文] [Boris]: every day yeah

[译文] [Boris]: 每天，是的。

[原文] [Lenny]: good god

[译文] [Lenny]: 天啊。

[原文] [Boris]: uh 100% written by quad code i have not edited a single line by hand since uh November and yeah that that's been it i do look at the code so I I don't think we're kind of at the point yet where you can be totally hands-off especially when there's a lot of people you know like running the program you have to make sure that it's correct you have to make sure it's safe and so on

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，100% 由 Quad Code 编写，自呃，11 月以来，我没有用手改过一行代码。是的，情况就是这样。我确实会看代码，所以我，我不认为我们已经到了那种你可以完全撒手不管（hands-off）的地步，特别是当有很多人，你知道的，比如在运行这个程序时，你必须确保它是正确的，你必须确保它是安全的，等等。

[原文] [Boris]: um and then we also have Quad doing automatic code review for everything um so here at Enthropic Quad reviews 100% of poll requests um there's still layer of like human review after it but you kind of like you still do want some of these checkpoints like you still want a human looking at the code um unless it's like pure prototype code that you know it's not going to run it's not going to run anywhere it's just a prototype

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，然后我们还有 Quad 对所有的东西进行自动代码审查（automatic code review）。嗯，所以在 Enthropic，Quad 会审查 100% 的 poll requests（代码合并请求）。嗯，在它之后仍然会有一层类似人工审查的环节，但你多多少少还是需要这些检查点（checkpoints），你仍然希望有人去看看代码。嗯，除非它是纯粹的原型代码（prototype code），你知道它不会运行，不会在任何地方运行，仅仅是个原型。

[原文] [Lenny]: what's kind of the next frontier so at this point 100% of your code is being written by AI this is clearly where everyone is going in software engineering that felt like a crazy milestone now it's just like of course this is the world now what's what's kind of the next big shift to how software is written that either your team's already operating in or you think will head towards

[译文] [Lenny]: 那么下一个前沿领域（next frontier）是什么？所以在这个时间点，你 100% 的代码都是由 AI 编写的，这显然是所有人在这项软件工程中所趋向的目标，那曾让人觉得是一个疯狂的里程碑，而现在大家只觉得，当然了，这就是现在的世界。那么在软件编写方式上，下一个巨大的转变是什么？不管是你的团队已经在操作的，还是你认为将要迈向的方向。

[原文] [Boris]: i think something that's happening right now is Quad is starting to come up with ideas um so Quad is looking through feedback it's uh looking at bug reports it's looking at um you know like telemetry and and things like this and it's starting to come up with ideas for bug fixes and things to ship so it's just starting to get a little more um you know like a little more like a co-orker or something like that

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为现在正在发生的一件事是 Quad 开始提出想法（come up with ideas）。嗯，所以 Quad 正在浏览反馈，它呃，在查看漏洞报告（bug reports），它在查看，嗯，你知道的，比如遥测数据（telemetry）和类似的东西，然后它开始为漏洞修复和即将发布的内容提出想法。所以它只是开始变得稍微更，嗯，你知道，稍微更像一个 co-orker（同事），或者类似的东西。

[原文] [Boris]: i think the second thing is we're starting to branch out of coding a little bit so I think at this point it's safe to say that coding is largely solved at least for the kind of programming that I do it's just a solved problem because quad can do it and so now we're starting to think about okay like what's next what's beyond this there's a lot of things that are kind of adjacent to coding um and I think this is going to be coming

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为第二件事是，我们开始稍微跳出编程（coding）的范畴。所以我认为在这个阶段，可以稳妥地说，编程在很大程度上已经被解决（solved）了。至少对于我所从事的那种编程工作而言，它已经是一个被解决的问题了，因为 Quad 能够完成它。所以现在我们开始思考，好吧，比如接下来是什么？在这之外还有什么？有很多与编程相邻的事情。嗯，我认为这将会到来。

[原文] [Boris]: but also just you know general tasks you know like I use co-work every day now to do all sorts of things that are just not related to coding at all and just to do it automatically like for example I had to pay a parking ticket the other day i just had co-work do it um all of my project management for the team uh co-work does all of it it's like syncing stuff between spreadsheets and messaging people on Slack and email and all this kind of stuff so I think the frontier is something like this and I I don't think it's coding because I think coding is you know it's pretty much solved and over the next few months I think what we're going to see is just across the industry it's going to become increasingly solved you know for every kind of codebase every tech stack that people work on

[译文] [Boris]: 但也仅仅是，你知道的，一般性任务。你知道，像我现在每天都使用 co-work 来做各种与编程完全无关的事情，而且就是让它自动去做。比如，前几天我必须付一张停车罚单，我就直接让 co-work 去做。嗯，我为团队做的所有项目管理（project management）工作，呃，co-work 把它们全包了，就像在电子表格之间同步数据，在 Slack 和电子邮件上给人们发消息，以及所有这类事情。所以我认为前沿领域就是类似这样的东西，而我，我不认为它是编程，因为我认为编程，你知道的，它几乎已经被解决了。而在接下来的几个月里，我认为我们将看到的是，在整个行业内，它将变得越来越被解决，你知道的，对于人们工作的每一种代码库（codebase）和每一种技术栈（tech stack）都是如此。

[原文] [Lenny]: this idea of helping you come up with what to work on is so interesting a lot of people listening to this are product managers and they're probably sweating how do you use Claude for this do you just talk to it is there anything clever you've come up with to help you use it to come up with what to build

[译文] [Lenny]: 这种帮助你构思下一步该做什么的想法太有趣了。许多正在听这档节目的听众是产品经理（product managers），他们现在可能正在冒汗。你是怎么用 Claude 来做这个的？你是直接跟它说话吗？你有没有想出什么聪明的方法来帮助你用它来构思要构建什么？

[原文] [Boris]: honestly the simplest thing is like open quad code or co-work and point it at a Slack thread um you know like for us we have this channel that that's all the internal feedback about Quad Code since we first released it even in like 2024 internally it's just been this fire hose of feedback um and it's the best and like in the early days what I would do is anytime that someone sends feedback I would just go in and I would fix every single thing as fast as I possibly could so like within a minute within 5 minutes or whatever and this just really fast feedback cycle it encourages people to give more and more feedback it's just so important cuz it makes them feel heard

[译文] [Boris]: 老实说，最简单的方法就是打开 Quad Code 或者 co-work，然后把它指向一个 Slack 的消息流（thread）。嗯，你知道的，像我们，我们有一个频道，里面全是关于 Quad Code 的内部反馈。自从我们首次发布它以来，甚至像在 2024 年的内部测试阶段，它简直就是喷涌而出的反馈源泉。嗯，那是最棒的。在早期的时候，我会怎么做呢，每当有人发送反馈，我就会直接进去，尽可能快地修复每一件事，比如在一分钟内，五分钟内或者随便多久。而这种极其快速的反馈循环（feedback cycle）会鼓励人们提供越来越多的反馈，这非常重要，因为这让他们觉得自己被倾听了。

[原文] [Boris]: cuz you know like usually when you use a product you give feedback it just goes into a black hole somewhere and then you don't give feedback again so if you make people feel heard then they want to contribute and they want to help make the thing better um and so now I kind of do the same thing but Quad honestly does a lot of the work so I pointed at the channel and it's like "Okay here's a few things that I can do i just put up a couple PRs want to take a look at that one?" I'm like "Yeah."

[译文] [Boris]: 因为你知道，通常当你使用一个产品并给出反馈时，它只会掉进某个地方的黑洞里，然后你就不会再给反馈了。所以如果你让人们觉得被倾听了，那么他们就会想要做出贡献，他们会想帮助把这个东西做得更好。嗯，所以现在我某种程度上在做同样的事情，但老实说，Quad 承担了大量的工作。所以我把它指向那个频道，它就会说：“好的，这里有几件事我可以做，我刚刚提交了几个 PR，想看看那个吗？”我的反应就是：“好啊。”

[原文] [Lenny]: Have you noticed that it is getting much better at this because this is kind of the holy grail right now it's like "Cool building solved." Code review became kind of the next bottleneck all these PRs who's going to review them all the next big open question is just like okay now we need to now now humans are necessary for figuring out what to build what to prioritize and you're saying that that's where claude code is starting to help you has it has it gotten a lot better with like say Opus 46 or what's been the trajectory there

[译文] [Lenny]: 你有没有注意到它在这方面正变得越来越好？因为这差不多是现在的圣杯（holy grail）。就像“太酷了，构建代码的问题解决了。”随后，代码审查（Code review）变成了下一个瓶颈，所有这些 PR，谁来审查它们？下一个巨大的开放性问题就是，好吧，现在我们需要，现在人类是必不可少的，因为需要人类来弄清楚要构建什么，要优先处理什么。而你在说，这正是 Claude Code 开始帮助你的地方。它是不是随着，比如说 Opus 4.6，变得好多了？或者这方面的轨迹是怎样的？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah yeah it's improved a lot um I think some of it is kind of like training that we do specific to coding um so you know obviously you know best coding model in the world and you know it's getting better and better like 4.6 is just incredible but also actually a lot of the training that we do outside of coding translates pretty well too so there is this kind of like transfer where you teach the model to do you know X and it kind of gets better at Y

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，是的，它进步了很多。嗯，我认为其中一部分是因为我们专门针对编程所做的类似训练。嗯，所以你知道，显然，你知道这是世界上最好的编程模型，而且你知道它正变得越来越好，比如 4.6 简直不可思议。但同时实际上，我们在编程之外所做的许多训练也转化得非常好。所以存在这种类似迁移（transfer）的情况，当你教模型去做，你知道的，X 时，它在 Y 方面也变得更好了。

[原文] [Boris]: um yeah and the the gains have just been insane like at anthropic over the last year like since we introduced quad code we probably I don't know the exact number we probably like 4x the engineering team or something like this but productivity per engineer has increased 200% in terms of like pull requests and like this number is just crazy for anyone that actually works in the space and works on deaf productivity because back in a previous life I was at Meta and you know one of my responsibilities was code quality for the company so this is like the all of our code bases that was my responsibility like Facebook Instagram WhatsApp all this stuff

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，是的，而且这种收益简直是疯狂的。就像在 Anthropic 过去的一年里，就像自我们引入 Quad Code 以来，我们大概，我不知道确切的数字，我们工程团队的规模大概扩大了 4 倍或者类似这样，但是每位工程师的生产力（productivity）在提交的 pull requests（代码合并请求）数量上增加了 200%。而这个数字对于任何真正真正在这个领域工作、致力于开发者生产力（dev productivity）的人来说都是疯狂的。因为在上一份职业生涯中，我在 Meta 工作，而且你知道，我的职责之一就是负责公司的代码质量（code quality）。所以这就像是我们所有的代码库，那是我的责任，比如 Facebook、Instagram、WhatsApp 所有这些东西。

[原文] [Boris]: um and a lot of that was about productivity because if you make the code higher quality then engineers are more productive and things that we saw is you know in a year with hundreds of engineers working on it you would see a gain of like a few percentage points of productivity something like this um and so nowadays seeing these gains of just hundreds of percentage points it's is just absolutely insane

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，而其中很大一部分都关乎生产力，因为如果你让代码质量更高，工程师们的生产力就会更高。而我们所看到的情况是，你知道，在几百名工程师努力了一年之后，你会看到生产力只有几个百分点的提升，类似这样的情况。嗯，所以如今看到这种高达几百个百分点的收益，这简直是绝对的疯狂。

[原文] [Lenny]: what's also insane is just how normalized this has all been like we hear these numbers like of course AI is doing this to us it's just it's so unprecedented the amount of change that is happening to software development to building products to just this the world of tech it's just like so easy to get used to it but it's important to recognize this is crazy this is something like I have to remind myself once in a while

[译文] [Lenny]: 同样疯狂的是，这一切变得如此常态化。就像我们听到这些数字时，反应是：当然了，AI 就是在对我们做这样的事。这一切简直太史无前例了，发生在软件开发、产品构建以及整个科技领域的改变数量。它就是让人很容易习惯，但重要的是要认识到这很疯狂。这是那种我偶尔必须提醒自己的事情。

[原文] [Boris]: there's sort of like a downside of this because the model changes so well there's actually like there's many kind of downsides that that we could talk about but I think one of them on a personal level is the model changes so often that I sometimes get stuck in this like old way of of thinking about it and I even find that like new people on the team or even new grads that join do stuff in a more kind of like AGI forward way than I do

[译文] [Boris]: 这种现象某种程度上也有其缺点，因为模型变化得太好了。实际上有很多我们可以谈论的缺点，但我认为其中之一，在个人层面上，就是模型变化得如此频繁，以至于我有时会陷入这种类似用旧有思维来思考它的困境。我甚至发现，像团队里的新人，或者是刚加入的应届毕业生，他们做事情的方式在某种程度上比我更加地 AGI-forward（指代拥抱通用人工智能时代的超前方式）。

[原文] [Boris]: so like sometimes for example I I I had this case like a couple months ago where there was a memory leak and so like what this is is you know like quad code the memory usage is going up and at some point it crashes this is like a very common kind of engineering problem that you know every engineer has debugged a thousand times and traditionally the way that you do it is you take a heap snapshot you put it into a special debugger you kind of figure out what's going on you know use these special tools to see what's happening

[译文] [Boris]: 所以就像有时，举个例子，我，我，我在几个月前遇到了这样一个情况，当时出现了一个内存泄漏（memory leak）。所以像这个情况是，你知道的，就像 Quad Code 的内存使用量正在上升，并在某个时刻崩溃了。这就像是一个非常常见的那种工程问题，你知道每个工程师都调试过一千次。传统的解决方法是，你抓取一个堆快照（heap snapshot），把它放到一个特殊的调试器（debugger）里，你试着弄清楚发生了什么，你知道，使用这些特殊的工具来查看发生了什么。

[原文] [Boris]: um and I was doing this and I was kind of like looking through these traces and trying to figure out what was going on and the engineer that was newer on the team just uh had Quad Code do it and was like "Hey Quad it seems like there's a leak can you figure it out?" And so like Quad Code did exactly the same thing that I was doing it it took the heap snapshot it wrote a little tool for itself so it can kind of like analyze it itself um it was sort of like a just in time program uh and it found the issue and put up a pull request faster than I could

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，然后我就在做这件事，我就像是在检查这些追踪信息（traces），并试图弄清楚到底是怎么回事。而团队里那位比较新的工程师只是呃，让 Quad Code 去做。他就说：“嘿，Quad，似乎存在泄漏，你能弄清楚吗？”然后像 Quad Code 就做了和我正在做的完全一样的事情，它抓取了堆快照，它为自己写了一个小工具，这样它就能某种程度上自己去分析它。嗯，这有点像是一个即时编译程序（just in time program）。呃，而且它发现了问题，并提交了一个 pull request，比我还快。

[原文] [Boris]: so it's it's something where like for those of us that have been using the model for a long time you still have to kind of transport yourself to the current moment and not get stuck back in an old model because it's not sonnet 3.5 anymore the new models are just completely completely different uh and just this this mindset shift is is very different

[译文] [Boris]: 所以这是，这是某种现象，就像对于我们这些已经使用该模型很长时间的人来说，你仍然必须设法把自己拉回到当下，不要重新陷入旧有的模型思维中。因为这不再是 Sonnet 3.5 了，新模型就是完全、完全不同的。呃，而且这种，这种思维模式的转变（mindset shift）是非常不一样的。

章节 5：AI 团队的管理哲学：适度预算短缺与“Token自由”

📝 本节摘要：

本节对话从技术层面转向了团队管理与产品哲学。Lenny 提到了 Boris 为团队定下的原则，引出了 Boris 独特且有些反直觉的管理理念——“适度让项目资源不足（Underfund）”。Boris 解释说，较少的人员配置加上对速度的极度渴望，会“逼迫”工程师自发地将大量工作交给 AI 去自动化。此外，针对企业如何最大化 AI 工具的效能，Boris 给出的建议是：在初期不要试图去控制成本，而是要赋予工程师无限的 Token（模型调用资源），激发最疯狂的创新。这种“Token 自由”策略目前甚至正在成为一些前沿科技公司的招聘福利。

[原文] [Lenny]: i hear you have these very specific principles that you've codified for your team that when people join you you kind of walk them through them i believe one of them is what's better than doing something having Claude do it and it feels like that's exactly what you describe with this memory leak is just like you almost forgot that principle of like okay let me see if Claude can solve this for me

[译文] [Lenny]: 我听说你为你的团队制定了一些非常具体的原则（principles），当人们加入时，你会给他们讲解这些原则。 我相信其中一条是：“有什么比亲自动手做更好的？让 Claude 去做。” 感觉这完全就是你刚才描述的那个内存泄漏的例子，就像你几乎忘了这个原则，即：“好吧，让我看看 Claude 能不能帮我解决这个问题。”

[原文] [Boris]: there's this uh there's this interesting thing that happens also when you um when you underfund everything a little bit uh because then people are kind of forced to clify and this is something that we see so you know for work where sometimes we just put like one engineer on a project and the way that they're able to ship really quickly because they want to ship quickly this is like an intrinsic motivation that comes from within is just wanting to do a good job one if you have a good idea you just really want to get it out there no one has to force you to do that that comes from you um and and so if you have claude you can just use that to automate a lot of work uh and that that's kind of what we see over and over so I think that's kind of like one principle is underfunding things a little bit

[译文] [Boris]: 当你，嗯，当你让所有事情都稍微缺乏一点资金（underfund）时，也会发生一件有趣的事情，呃，因为那样人们就会有点被迫去“Claude化（clify，注：音频原词为口语生造词，指代交给 Claude 处理）”，这是我们所看到的现象。 所以，你知道，在工作中，有时我们只在一个项目上安排一名工程师，而他们能够非常快速地发布（ship），是因为他们想要快速发布。 这就像是一种内在的动力（intrinsic motivation），源于内心，仅仅是想做好工作。 首先，如果你有一个好主意，你真的只是想把它推向市场，没有人需要强迫你去做，那是出于你自己的意愿。 嗯，而且所以，如果你有 Claude，你就可以直接用它来自动化（automate）大量的工作，呃，这就是我们一遍又一遍看到的现象。 所以我认为那算是一个原则，就是让事情稍微有些资源不足（underfunding）。

[原文] [Boris]: i think another principle is just encouraging people to go faster so if you can do something today you should just do it today and this is something we we really really encourage on the team early on it was really important because it was just me and so our only advantage was speed that's the only way that we could ship a product that would compete in this very crowded coding market but nowadays it's still very much a principle we have on the team and if you want to go faster a really good way to do that is to just have Claude do more stuff um so he it just very much encourages that

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为另一个原则就是仅仅鼓励人们走得更快。 所以，如果你今天能做某件事，你就应该在今天把它做完，这是我们在团队中非常、非常鼓励的事情。 在早期，这非常重要，因为当时只有我一个人，所以我们唯一的优势就是速度（speed）。 那是我们能够发布一款产品、在这个非常拥挤的编程市场（coding market）中竞争的唯一方式。 但如今，这在很大程度上仍然是我们团队拥有的一个原则，而且如果你想走得更快，一个非常好的方法就是直接让 Claude 做更多的事情。 嗯，所以这（个原则）非常鼓励这种做法。

[原文] [Lenny]: this idea of underfunding it's so interesting because in general there's this feeling like AI is going to allow you to not have as many employees not have as many engineers and so it's not only you can be more productive what you're saying is that you will actually do better if you underfund it's not just that AI can make you faster it's you will get more out of the AI tooling if you have fewer people working on something

[译文] [Lenny]: 这个关于资源不足（underfunding）的想法非常有趣，因为总体而言，人们有一种感觉，好像 AI 将允许你不雇佣那么多员工，不雇佣那么多工程师，所以这不仅仅是你能够变得更有生产力。 你所说的是，如果你缺乏资源（underfund），你实际上会做得更好。 这不仅仅是 AI 能让你更快，而是如果只有更少的人在某件事上工作，你会从 AI 工具（AI tooling）中获得更多。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah if you if you hire great engineers they'll figure out how to do it and uh especially if you empower them to do it this is something I actually talk talk a lot about with uh you know with like CTO's and kind of all sorts of companies my advice generally is don't try to optimize don't don't try to cost cut at the beginning start by just giving engineers as many tokens as possible and now now you're starting to see companies like you know at Anthropic we have you know everyone can use a lot of tokens we're starting to see this come up as like a perk at some companies like if you join you get unlimited tokens this is a thing I very much encourage because um it makes people free to try these ideas that would have been too crazy and then if there's an idea that works then you can figure out how to scale it and that's the point to kind of optimize and to cost cut figure out like you know maybe you can do it with haiku or with sonnet instead of opus or whatever but at the beginning you just want to throw a lot of tokens at it and see if the idea works and give engineers the freedom to do that

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，如果你，如果你雇佣了伟大的工程师，他们会想出办法来做的，而且，呃，特别是如果你赋予他们权力（empower）去这样做。 这实际上是我和呃，你知道，比如和 CTO 们以及各种类型的公司谈论很多的事情。 我的建议通常是，不要在开始时试图优化（optimize），不要试图削减成本（cost cut）。 一开始，仅仅是给工程师尽可能多的 tokens（注：大语言模型处理文本的基本单位）。 现在，现在你开始看到一些公司，比如你知道在 Anthropic，我们有，你知道，每个人都可以使用大量的 tokens。 我们开始看到这在一些公司成为一种福利（perk），比如如果你加入，你就能获得无限的 tokens（unlimited tokens）。 这是我非常鼓励的一件事，因为，嗯，它让人们可以自由地去尝试那些原本可能太疯狂的想法。 然后，如果有一个想法奏效了，你就可以弄清楚如何去扩大它的规模（scale it），那才是进行某种优化和削减成本的节点。 弄清楚比如，你知道，也许你可以用 Haiku 或 Sonnet 来代替 Opus 做这件事之类的。 但在刚开始，你只想朝里面砸大量的 tokens，看看这个想法是否奏效，并给工程师这样做的自由。

[原文] [Lenny]: so the advice here is uh just be be loose with your tokens with this the cost on on using these models people hearing this may be like of course he works at Anthropic he wants us to use as many tokens as possible but you're what you're saying here is the the most interesting innovative ideas will come out of someone just kind of taking it to the max and seeing what's possible

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以这里的建议是，呃，在你的 tokens 以及使用这些模型的成本上，要宽松（loose）一点。 听到这里的人可能会觉得：当然了，他在 Anthropic 工作，他自然希望我们使用尽可能多的 tokens。 但是你在，你在这里所说的是，最有趣、最具创新性的想法将来自于那些某种程度上将其发挥到极致并看看有何可能的人。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah and I and I think the reality is like at small scale like you know you're not going to get like a giant bill or anything like this like if it's an individual engineer experimenting it's the token cost is still probably relatively low relative to their salary or you know other costs of running the business so it it's actually like not not a huge cost as the thing scales up so like let's say you know they build something awesome and then it takes a huge amount of tokens and then the cost becomes pretty big that's the point at which you want to optimize it but don't don't do that too early

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，而且我，我认为现实情况是，就像在小规模下，你知道，你不会收到一张巨额账单或者类似的东西。 就像如果是一个单独的工程师在做实验，代币成本（token cost）相对于他们的薪水或者，你知道的，运营企业的其他成本来说，可能仍然是相对较低的。 所以它，它实际上并不是一笔巨大的成本。 当事情规模扩大时，比如我们假设，你知道，他们构建了一些非常棒的东西，然后它消耗了大量的 tokens，接着成本变得相当大，那个节点才是你想要优化它的时候，但不要，不要过早去做。

[原文] [Lenny]: have you seen companies where their uh token cost is higher than their salary is that a trend you think we're going to find and see

[译文] [Lenny]: 你有没有见过呃，代币成本高于员工薪水的公司？ 你认为这会是我们将会发现并看到的一个趋势吗？

[原文] [Boris]: you know at Anthropic we're starting to see some engineers that are spending you know like hundreds of thousands a month in in tokens um so we're starting to see this a little bit um there's some companies that are we're starting to see similar things yeah

[译文] [Boris]: 你知道，在 Anthropic 我们开始看到一些工程师每个月在 tokens 上花费，你知道，几十万美元。 嗯，所以我们开始稍微看到一点这种情况。 嗯，有一些公司，我们正开始在他们身上看到类似的事情，是的。

章节 6：历史的镜像：活字印刷术与编程技能的演变

📝 本节摘要：

本节深入探讨了编程自动化的感性层面与历史语境。Lenny 询问 Boris 是否会因为不再亲手写代码而感到失落，以及是否担心自己的工程技能退化。Boris 回忆了自己为在数学考试中作弊而自学编程的趣事，指出对他而言编程始终是解决问题的工具，而非目的本身。为了帮助大家理解当下的技术剧变，他巧妙地引用了历史类比：从打孔卡片到汇编语言，再到如同“活字印刷术”普及带来的知识平权。就像 15 世纪的抄写员不用再做枯燥的誊写工作，而是转向更高级的艺术装帧一样，现代工程师也得以从繁琐的底层代码中解放出来，将精力集中在更具创造力的系统构建与用户需求挖掘上。

[原文] [Lenny]: going back to coding do you miss writing code is this something you're kind of sad about that this is no longer a thing you will do as a software engineer

[译文] [Lenny]: 回到写代码这件事上，你会怀念写代码吗？作为一名软件工程师，这不再是你将会做的事情，你会为此感到有些失落吗？

[原文] [Boris]: it's funny for me you know like when when I learned engineering for me it was very practical i learned engineering so I could build stuff and for me I was I was selftaught you know like I studied economics in school but um I didn't study CS but I I taught myself engineering kind of early on i was programming in like middle school and from the very beginning it was very practical so I actually like I learned to code so that I can cheat on a math test that was like the first thing we had these like graphing calculators and you know I just programmed the answer into TI83 t83 plus yeah yeah exactly plus yeah so like I programmed the answers in and then the next like math test whatever like the next year that it was just like too hard like I couldn't program all the answers in because I didn't know what the questions were and so I had to write like a little solver so that it it was a program that would just like solve these like uh you know these al algebra questions or whatever and then I figured out you can get a little cable you can give the program to the rest of the class and then the whole class gets A's but then we all got caught and the teacher told us to knock it off but from the very beginning it's it's always just been very practical for me where programming is a way to build a thing it's not the end in itself

[译文] [Boris]: 对我来说这很有趣，你知道，当、当我学习工程学时，对我而言它是非常实用的。我学习工程学是为了能够构建东西，而且对于我来说，我是、我是自学的，你知道的，像我在学校里学的是经济学，但是嗯，我没有学计算机科学（CS），但我、我很早就自学了工程学。我大概在初中时就开始编程，从一开始它就非常讲究实用。所以我实际上，比如我学习编程是为了能在数学考试中作弊，那大概是第一件事。我们有这些像图形计算器（graphing calculators）之类的东西，你知道，我就是把答案编入到 TI-83、T-83 Plus（注：德州仪器的图形计算器型号）里，是的，是的，完全正确，Plus，是的。所以我把答案编进去，然后大概到了下一次数学考试，或者是第二年的考试，题目变得太难了，就像我无法把所有的答案都编进去，因为我不知道问题是什么。所以我不得不写一个类似小型的求解器（solver），让它成为一个能解决比如，呃，你知道的，这些代数（algebra）问题之类的程序。然后我发现你可以弄一根小电缆，你可以把程序传给班里的其他人，然后全班都拿了 A。但后来我们都被抓了，老师让我们停止这种行为。不过从一开始，它对我来说就一直是非常实用的东西，编程只是构建事物的一种方式，它本身并不是最终目的。

[原文] [Boris]: at some point I personally fell into the rabbit hole of kind of like the the beauty of of programming um so like I I wrote a book about TypeScript um I started the actually at the time it was the world's biggest uh TypeScript meetup just because I fell in love with the language itself uh and I kind of got in deep into like functional programming and and all this stuff i think a lot of coders they get distracted by this for me it was always sort of um they there is a beauty to programming and especially to functional programming there's a beauty to type systems um there there's a certain kind of like this like buzz that you get like when you solve like a really a really complicated uh math problem it's kind of similar when you kind of balance the types or you know the program is just like really beautiful but it's really not the end of it um I think for me coding is very much a tool and it's a way to do things uh that said not everyone feels this way so for example you know like there's one engineer uh on the team Lena who you know was still writing C++ on the weekends by hand because you know for her she just really enjoys writing C++ by hand and so everyone is different and I think even as this field changes even as everything changes there's always space to do this there's always space to enjoy the art um and to and and to kind of do do things by hand uh if you want

[译文] [Boris]: 在某个时候，我个人也掉进了某种类似探索编程之美（beauty of programming）的兔子洞（rabbit hole）里。嗯，所以比如我、我写了一本关于 TypeScript 的书，嗯，我创办了实际上在当时是世界上最大的呃 TypeScript 线下聚会（meetup），仅仅是因为我爱上了这门语言本身，呃，而且我算是一下子深入到了比如函数式编程（functional programming）以及所有这些东西里。我认为很多程序员（coders）会因为这个而分心，对我来说它总是有点嗯，编程确实有一种美感，特别是对于函数式编程来说，类型系统（type systems）有一种美感。嗯，当你解决一个真正、真正复杂的呃数学问题时，你会获得一种特定的、类似的兴奋感（buzz），当你某种程度上平衡了类型（balance the types），或者你知道，程序看起来就是非常优美时，那种感觉是相似的，但它真的不是终点。嗯，我认为对我来说编程在很大程度上是一个工具，它是做事情的一种方式。呃，话虽如此，并不是每个人都这样觉得，所以举个例子，你知道像团队里有一个工程师呃，叫 Lena，你知道她周末仍然在手工编写 C++ 代码，因为你知道，对她来说，她就是非常享受手工编写 C++ 的过程。所以每个人都是不同的，而且我认为即使在这个领域发生改变时，即使一切都在改变，依然总会有这样做的空间，总会有空间去享受这门艺术，嗯，而且去、而且某种程度上如果你愿意的话，去手工做这些事情。

[原文] [Lenny]: do you worry about your skills atrophing as an engineer is that something you worry about or is it just like you know this is just the way it's going to go

[译文] [Lenny]: 你会担心作为一名工程师，你的技能在退化（atrophing）吗？这是你会担心的事，还是说你觉得，你知道的，这本就是它必然的发展方向？

[原文] [Boris]: i think it's just the way that that it happens i I don't worry about it too much personally i think for me like programming is on is on a continuum and you know like way back in the day you know like software actually is like relatively new right like if you look at the way programs are written today like using software that's running on a virtual machine or something this has been the way that we've been writing programs since probably the 1960s so you know it's been you know like 60 years or something like that before that it was punch cards before that it was switches before that it was hardware and before that it was just you know like literally pen and paper it was like a room a room full of people that were doing math on on paper and so you know programming has always changed in this way

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为这本就是事情发生的方式，我、我个人并不太担心这个。我认为对我来说，比如编程处在一个、处在一个连续的演变序列（continuum）上，而且你知道，就像回溯到过去，你知道像软件（software）实际上是相对较新的东西，对吧？就像如果你看看今天程序的编写方式，比如使用运行在虚拟机（virtual machine）或其他什么东西上的软件，这大概是我们自 20 世纪 60 年代以来一直在编写程序的方式。所以你知道，它存在了你知道的大概 60 年之类的。在那之前，它是打孔卡片（punch cards）；在那之前，它是开关（switches）；在那之前，它是硬件（hardware）；而在那之前，它就是，你知道的，字面意义上的笔和纸，就像是一个房间、一个挤满人的房间在纸上做数学运算。所以你知道，编程一直是以这种方式在改变的。

[原文] [Boris]: in some ways you still want to understand the layer under the layer because it helps you be a better engineer and I think this will be the case maybe for the next year or so um but I think pretty soon it just won't really matter it's just going to be kind of like the the assembly code wring running under the programmer or something like this uh at an emotional level you know I I feel like I've always had to learn new things and as a programmer it's actually not it doesn't feel that new because there's always new frameworks there's always new languages it's just something that we're quite comfortable with in the field but at the same time I you know this isn't true for everyone and I think for some people they're going to feel a greater sense of I don't know maybe like loss or nostalgia or atrophy or something like this

[译文] [Boris]: 在某些方面，你依然想要理解底层之下的那一层（the layer under the layer），因为这有助于你成为一名更好的工程师，并且我认为大概在接下来的一年左右还会是这种情况。嗯，但我认为很快它就不再重要了，它只会变得有点像在程序员眼皮底下运行的汇编代码（assembly code）之类的情况。呃，在情感层面上，你知道我、我觉得我总是必须学习新事物，而且作为一名程序员，它实际上并不、感觉上并没有那么新奇，因为总是有新的框架（frameworks），总是有新的语言（languages），在这个领域里，这就是我们相当习惯的事情。但与此同时，我，你知道这并不是对所有人都适用，而且我认为对于某些人来说，他们将会感受到一种更强烈的，我不知道，也许是像失落感、怀旧感或者是能力退化（atrophy）之类的情绪。

[原文] [Lenny]: i don't know if you saw this but Elon was saying that uh why isn't the AI just writing binary straight to binary uh because what's the point of all this you know programming abstraction in the end

[译文] [Lenny]: 我不知道你是否看到了这个，但是 Elon（马斯克）曾说，呃，为什么 AI 不直接将代码写成二进制（binary），直接生成二进制码呢？呃，因为说到底，所有这些你知道的，编程抽象（programming abstraction）的意义何在呢？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah it's a good question i mean it totally can do that if you wanted to

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，这是个好问题。我的意思是，如果你想的话，它完全可以那样做。

[原文] [Lenny]: oh man so what I'm hearing here is in terms there's always this question should I learn to code should people in school learn to code uh what I heard from you is your take is in like a year or two you don't really need to

[译文] [Lenny]: 噢天哪，所以我在这里听到的是，在某些方面总是存在这个问题：我应该学习编程吗？学校里的人应该学习编程吗？呃，我从你这里听到的是，你的看法是，大概在一两年内，你真的不需要这么做了。

[原文] [Boris]: my take is I think for for people that are using um there that are using quad code that are using agents to code today you still have to understand the layer under but yeah in a year or two it's not going to matter

[译文] [Boris]: 我的看法是，我认为对于、对于今天在使用嗯、在使用 Quad Code、在使用智能体（agents）进行编程的人来说，你仍然必须理解其底层的架构（layer under），但是是的，在一两年内，它就不再重要了。

[原文] [Boris]: i I was thinking about um what is the right like historical analog for this cuz like like somehow we have to situate this thing in history and and kind of figure out when have we gone through similar transitions what's the right kind of mental model for this i think the thing that's come closest for me is the printing press and so you know if you look at Europe in uh you know like in the in the mid the mid400s literacy was actually very low uh there was sub 1% of the population it was scribes that uh you know they were the ones that did all the writing they they were the ones that did all the reading they were employed by like lords and kings that often were not literate themselves and so you know it was their job of this very tiny percent of the population to do this and at some point the you know Gutenberg and and the printing press came along and there was this crazy stat that in the 50 years after the printing press was uh built there was more printed material created than in the c in the in the thousand years before and so the the volume of printed material just went way up uh the cost went way down it went down something like 100x over the next 50 years and if you look at literacy you know it actually took a while because learning to read and write is you know it's quite hard it takes an education system it takes free time you it takes like not having to work on a farm all day so that you actually have time for education and things like this but over the next 200 years it went up to like 70% globally so I think this is the kind of thing that we might see is a similar kind of transition

[译文] [Boris]: 我、我一直在思考，嗯，什么才是与之恰当的、类似历史类比（historical analog）的东西，因为感觉某种程度上我们必须把这件事置于历史的长河中，去弄清楚我们什么时候经历过类似的转变，怎样才是合适的认知模型（mental model）？我认为对我来说最贴切的就是活字印刷术（printing press）。因此，你知道，如果你看看呃，你知道大概在 15 世纪中期的欧洲，识字率实际上非常低。呃，人口中只有不到 1% 的识字者，那是抄写员（scribes），呃，你知道，他们包揽了所有的书写工作，他们、他们包揽了所有的阅读工作，他们受雇于比如领主和国王，而这些人本身通常是不识字的。所以你知道，这成了人口中极小一部分人的工作去完成这些。而在某个时刻，你知道古腾堡（Gutenberg）和、和活字印刷术出现了，有一个疯狂的统计数据：在活字印刷机被发明的 50 年里，所创造出的印刷材料比之前的一千年里创造的还要多。因此，印刷材料的数量直接飙升，呃，成本急剧下降，在接下来的 50 年里大概下降了 100 倍。如果你看看识字率，你知道它实际上花了一段时间，因为学习读写，你知道的，是相当困难的，它需要一个教育系统（education system），它需要闲暇时间，你需要比如不必整天在农场劳作，这样你才有时间接受教育之类的事情。但在接下来的 200 年里，全球范围内的识字率上升到了大约 70%。所以我认为，我们可能会看到这种类似转变的过程。

[原文] [Boris]: and there was uh there was actually this interesting um historical document where there was an interview with some like scribe in the 1400s about like how do you feel about the printing press and they were actually very excited because they were like actually the thing that I don't like doing is copying between books the thing that I do like doing is drawing the art in books and then doing the book binding and I'm really glad that now my time is freed up and it's interesting like as an engineer I sort of felt like a peril with this it's like this is sort of how I feel where I don't have to do the tedious work anymore of coding because this has always been sort of the detail of it it's always been the tedious part of it and kind of like messing with like git and kind of using all these different tools that that was not the fun part the fun part is figuring out what to build and coming up with this it's uh it's talking to users it's thinking about these big systems it's thinking about the future it's collaborating with you know other people on the team and that's what I get to do more of now

[译文] [Boris]: 并且有一份、呃、实际上有一份有趣的呃历史文献，里面有一段在 15 世纪对某位抄写员的类似采访，问他对于印刷机感觉如何。而他们其实非常兴奋，因为他们的态度是：实际上，我不喜欢做的事情是在书籍之间抄写，我真正喜欢做的事情是在书里画那些艺术插图，然后做书籍装帧（book binding），我真的很高兴现在我的时间被解放出来了。有趣的是，作为一名工程师，我多少觉得这与我们现在面临的情况如出一辙（peril，疑为 parallel 的口误/同源感），这就像是我现在的感受。我不需要再去干那些乏味的编程苦力活了，因为这一直是其中的细枝末节，它总是那些令人厌烦的部分，并且有点像是在应付 Git，以及应付各种不同的工具，那并不是有趣的部分。有趣的部分是弄清楚该构建什么，并想出点子。那是呃，那是与用户交谈，那是思考这些庞大的系统，那是思考未来，那是与你知道的、团队中的其他人协作，而那正是我现在能做得更多的事情。

[原文] [Lenny]: and what's amazing is that the tool you're building allows anybody to do this people that have no technical experience can do exactly what you're describing like I'm I've been doing a bunch of random little projects and any it's just like anytime you get stuck just like help me figure this out and you get on block like I used to I was an engineer for early in my career for 10 years and I just remember spending so much time on like libraries and dependencies and things and just like oh my god what do I do and then looking on stack overflow and now it's just like help me figure this out and here's step by step one two three four okay we got this

[译文] [Lenny]: 而令人惊奇的是，你正在构建的工具允许任何人来做这些事。没有技术经验的人也可以做你所描述的事情，比如我，我一直在做一些随意的小项目，而且任何、就是每当你卡住的时候，就像是说一句“帮我弄清楚这个”，然后你就解除阻碍（get on block，注：结合语境指代 unblocked）了。像我以前，在职业生涯早期我做了 10 年工程师，我只记得花了大量的时间在库（libraries）和依赖项（dependencies）之类的事情上，就像是天哪，我该怎么办？然后在 Stack Overflow 上找答案。而现在它就像是“帮我弄清楚这个”，然后这里就有了一二三四循序渐进的步骤，好的，我们搞定了。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah exactly exactly I was talking to an engineer earlier today they're like they're writing some service and go and you know it's been like a month already and they they built up the service like it's working quite well and then I was like okay so like how do you feel writing it he was like you know like I I still don't really know Go but and I think we're going to start to see more and more of this it's like if you know that it works correctly and efficiently then you you don't actually have to know all the details

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，完全正确，完全正确。我今天早些时候在和一个工程师聊天，他们像是在用 Go 语言编写一些服务（service and go），并且你知道这已经大概一个月了。他们、他们构建起了这项服务，看起来它运作得相当好，然后我就问：“好吧，那你写这玩意儿感觉如何？”他就像是在说：“你知道的，其实我、我依然不是真的懂 Go 语言，但是……”而且我认为我们将会开始看到越来越多这样的情况：如果你知道它能正确且高效地运行，那么你其实并不需要知道所有的细节。

章节 7：AI 时代的职场生存指南：跨界通才与角色融合

📝 本节摘要：

本节探讨了 AI 对工程师之外的相邻岗位（如产品经理、设计师、数据科学家）带来的深远影响。Boris 澄清了“智能体（Agent）”的技术定义，指出未来的工作模式将高度依赖于能自主使用工具的 AI。针对关于 AI 夺走工作的担忧，他借用历史类比与“杰文斯悖论”表达了乐观态度，并给出了在这个时代生存的核心建议：成为一名充满好奇心的“跨界通才”。对话指出，在 Anthropic 内部，所有成员（包括产品经理、财务和设计师）都在写代码，传统的岗位边界正逐渐模糊，并终将融合成统一的“构建者（Builder）”角色。最后，他们讨论了近期的一项推特调查，揭示了不同岗位在使用 AI 工具后对工作乐趣的不同感知，并引出了让产品顺应“潜在需求”的思考。

[原文] [Lenny]: clearly the life of a software engineer has changed dramatically it's like a whole new job now as of the past year or two what do you think is the next role that will be most impacted by AI within either within tech like you know product managers designers or even outside tech just like what do you think where do you think AI is going next

[译文] [Lenny]: 显然，软件工程师的生活发生了戏剧性的变化，在过去的一两年里，这简直变成了一份全新的工作。你认为在科技领域内部（比如产品经理、设计师），甚至科技领域外部，下一个受 AI 影响最大的角色会是什么？你认为 AI 下一步将走向何方？

[原文] [Boris]: i think it's going to be a lot of the roles that are adjacent to engineering um so yeah it could be like product managers it could be design could be data science it is going to expand to pretty much any kind of work that you can do on a computer because the model is just going to get better and better at this

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为将会是许多与工程相邻的角色。嗯，所以是的，可能会是产品经理（product managers），可能会是设计（design），可能会是数据科学（data science）。它几乎会扩展到任何你能在电脑上完成的工作，因为模型在处理这些事情上只会变得越来越好。

[原文] [Boris]: um and you know like this is the co-work product is kind of the first way to get at this but it's just the first one and it's the thing that I think brings AI to a agentic AI to people that haven't really used it before and people are starting just to to to get a sense of it for the first time

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，而且你知道，像 co-work 这个产品算是触及这个领域的第一种方式，但它仅仅是个开始。我认为正是这个东西将 AI——将基于智能体的 AI（agentic AI）——带给了以前从未真正使用过它的人们，人们才刚刚开始第一次对它有所体会。

[原文] [Boris]: when I think back to engineering a year ago no one really knew what an agent was no one really used it but nowadays it's just the way that you know we do we do our work

[译文] [Boris]: 当我回想一年前的工程领域时，没有多少人真正知道智能体（agent）是什么，没有人真正使用过它。但如今，你知道，它就是我们工作的方式。

[原文] [Boris]: and then when I look at non-technical work today um so you know like or maybe semi-technical like product work and you know like data science and things like this when you look at the kinds of AI that people are using it's all it's always these like conversational AI it's like a chatbot or whatever but no one really has used an agent before and this word agent just gets thrown around all the time and it's just like so misused it's like lost all meaning

[译文] [Boris]: 然后当我审视今天的非技术性工作时，嗯，你知道比如，或者可能是半技术性工作，比如产品工作，以及你知道的像数据科学之类的事情，当你看看人们正在使用的 AI 类型时，它全都是、总是这些对话式 AI（conversational AI），就像聊天机器人（chatbot）之类的，但没有人真正使用过智能体。而“智能体（agent）”这个词总是被抛来抛去，它被严重滥用，以至于好像失去了所有意义。

[原文] [Boris]: but agent actually has like a very specific technical meaning which is it's a it's a AI it's a LM that's able to use tools so it doesn't just talk it can actually act and it can interact with your system and you know this means like it can use your Google docs and it can it can send email it can run commands on your computer and do all this kind of stuff

[译文] [Boris]: 但智能体（agent）实际上有一个非常具体的技术含义，那就是它是一个 AI，它是一个能够使用工具的大语言模型（LM）。所以它不仅仅是说话，它实际上可以采取行动，它可以与你的系统进行交互。你知道，这意味着比如它可以使用你的 Google 文档，它可以发送电子邮件，它可以在你的电脑上运行命令并做所有这些事情。

[原文] [Boris]: so I think like any kind of job where you do you use computer tools in this way i think this is going to be next this is something we have to kind of figure out as a as a society this is something we have to figure out as an industry

[译文] [Boris]: 所以我认为，任何需要你以这种方式使用电脑工具的工作，我认为这将是下一个目标。这是我们作为一个社会必须弄清楚的事情，这是我们作为一个行业必须弄清楚的事情。

[原文] [Boris]: um and I think for me also this is one of the reasons it it feels very important and urgent to do this work at anthropic because I think we take this very very seriously um and so now you know we have economists we have uh policy folks we have social impact folks this is something we just want to talk about a lot so as society we can kind of figure out what to do because it shouldn't be up to us

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，而且我认为对我来说，这也是我觉得在 Anthropic 做这项工作非常重要且紧迫的原因之一。因为我认为我们非常、非常认真地对待这件事。嗯，所以现在你知道，我们有经济学家（economists），我们有呃，政策人员（policy folks），我们有关注社会影响的人员（social impact folks）。这是我们想要经常探讨的事情，这样作为一个社会，我们就能某种程度上弄清楚该怎么做，因为这不应该只由我们来决定。

[原文] [Lenny]: so the big question which you're kind of alluding to is jobs and job loss and things like that there's this concept of Jevans paradox of just as we can do more we hire more and it's not actually as scary as it looks what have you experienced so far I guess with AI becoming a big part of the engineering job just are you hiring more than if you didn't have AI and just thoughts on jobs

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以你刚才某种程度上暗示的那个大问题就是工作、失业以及类似的事情。有一个“杰文斯悖论（Jevons paradox）”的概念，即正因为我们能做更多的事情，所以我们会雇佣更多的人，事情其实并不像看起来那么可怕。到目前为止你有什么体验？我猜随着 AI 成为工程工作中很大的一部分，你们雇佣的人是不是比没有 AI 时还要多？以及你对就业的想法是什么？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah I mean for our team we're we're hiring um so quadco team is hiring um if you're interested just check out the jobs page on on anthropic personally it's you know all this stuff has just made me enjoy my work more

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，我的意思是对于我们团队来说，我们正在招人。嗯，所以 Quad Code 团队正在招人，嗯，如果你感兴趣，只需去看看 Anthropic 上的招聘页面。就我个人而言，你知道，所有这些东西只是让我更享受我的工作了。

[原文] [Boris]: i have never enjoyed coding as much as I do today because I don't have to deal with all the minutia so for me personally it's been quite exciting

[译文] [Boris]: 我从未像今天这样享受编程，因为我不需要再去处理那些繁枝末节，所以对我个人来说，这非常令人兴奋。

[原文] [Boris]: this is something that we hear from a lot of customers where they love the tool they love Quad Code because it just makes coding delightful again uh and that's just that's just so fun for them but it's hard to know where this thing is going to go

[译文] [Boris]: 这也是我们从许多客户那里听到的话，他们喜欢这个工具，他们喜欢 Quad Code，因为它让编程再次变得令人愉悦。呃，那对他们来说真是太有趣了，但很难知道这东西最终会走向何方。

[原文] [Boris]: and I again I just like I have to reach for these historical analoges uh and I I think the printing press is just such a good one because what happened is this technology that was locked away to a small set of people like knowing how to read and write became accessible to everyone it was just inherently democratizing everyone started to be able to do this

[译文] [Boris]: 我再次觉得，我必须借助于这些历史类比（historical analogies）。呃，而且我，我认为活字印刷术（printing press）真的是一个很好的例子。因为当时发生的事情是，这项原本被少数人垄断的技术（比如懂得读写），变得人人皆可触及。它在本质上就是民主化（democratizing）的，每个人都开始能够做这件事。

[原文] [Boris]: and if that wasn't the case then something like the Renaissance just could never have happened because a lot of the Renaissance it was about like knowledge spreading it was about like written records that people used to communicate um you know cuz there were no phones or anything like this there was there was no internet at the time so it's about like what does this enable next

[译文] [Boris]: 如果不是那样的话，像文艺复兴（Renaissance）这样的事情就永远不可能发生。因为文艺复兴的很大一部分都关乎知识的传播，关乎人们用来交流的书面记录。嗯，你知道因为那时没有电话或类似的工具，当时没有互联网，所以这关乎它接下来能实现什么（enable next）。

[原文] [Boris]: and I think that's the very optimistic version of it for me and that's the part that I'm really excited about it's just unimaginable you know like we couldn't be talking today if the printing press hadn't been invented like our microphones wouldn't exist none of the things around us would exist it just wouldn't be possible to coordinate such a large group of people if that wasn't the case

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为对我来说这就是那个非常乐观的版本，那也是让我真正感到兴奋的部分。这简直是不可想象的，你知道，如果活字印刷术没有被发明，我们今天就不可能在这里交谈。比如我们的麦克风不会存在，我们周围的所有东西都不会存在，如果不是那样的话，协调如此庞大的一群人根本就是不可能的。

[原文] [Boris]: and so I imagine a world you know a few years in the future where everyone is able to program and what does that unlock anyone can just build software anytime and I have no idea it's just the same way that you know in the 1400s no one could have predicted this um I think it's the same way

[译文] [Boris]: 因此我设想一个在未来几年里的世界，在那里每个人都能够编程，而那将会解锁什么呢？任何人都可以随时构建软件。我毫无头绪，这就像是，你知道的，在 15 世纪没有人能预测到今天一样。嗯，我认为这是同理的。

[原文] [Boris]: but I do think in the meantime it's going to be very disruptive and it's going to be painful for a lot of people um and again as a society this is a conversation that we have to have and this is a thing that we have to figure out together

[译文] [Boris]: 但我确实认为，与此同时，它将会是非常具有破坏性（disruptive）的，并且对很多人来说将会是痛苦的。嗯，再次强调，作为一个社会，这是我们必须进行的一场对话，这是我们必须共同弄清楚的事情。

[原文] [Lenny]: so for folks hearing this that want to succeed and you know make it in this crazy turmoil we're entering any advice is it you know play with AI tools get really proficient at the latest stuff is there anything else that you recommend to help people uh stay ahead

[译文] [Lenny]: 那么对于听到这些并希望在我们正在进入的这场疯狂动荡中取得成功、你知道的，打出一片天的人们，你有什么建议吗？是去，你知道，把玩 AI 工具，变得非常精通最新的东西吗？还有没有其他你推荐的能帮助人们呃，保持领先的事情？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah I think that's pretty much it uh experiment with the tools get to know them don't be scared of them um just you know dive in try them be on the bleeding edge beyond the frontier

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，我想基本上就是这样。呃，去用工具做实验，去了解它们，不要害怕它们。嗯，就是你知道，潜心投入，尝试它们，站在最前沿（bleeding edge），超越边界。

[原文] [Boris]: maybe the second piece of advice is try to be a generalist more than you have in the past for example in school a lot of people that study CS they learn to code and they don't really learn much else maybe they learn a little bit of systems architecture or something like this

[译文] [Boris]: 也许第二条建议是，试着比过去更多地成为一名通才（generalist）。举个例子，在学校里，许多学习计算机科学（CS）的人学习了编程，但他们并没有真正学到太多其他的东西，也许他们学了一点系统架构（systems architecture）之类的东西。

[原文] [Boris]: but some of the most effective engineers that I work with every day and some of the most effective you know like product managers and so on they cross over disciplines

[译文] [Boris]: 但我每天共事的一些最高效的工程师，以及一些最高效的，你知道像产品经理之类的，他们都是跨越不同学科（cross over disciplines）的。

[原文] [Boris]: so on the quad code team everyone codes you know our product manager codes our engineering manager codes our designer codes our finance guy codes our data scientist codes like everyone on the team codes

[译文] [Boris]:所以在 Quad Code 团队，每个人都写代码。你知道，我们的产品经理写代码，我们的工程经理写代码，我们的设计师写代码，我们的财务人员写代码，我们的数据科学家写代码。团队里的每个人都写代码。

[原文] [Boris]: and and then if I look at particular engineers people often cross different disciplines so some of the strongest engineers are hybrid product and infrastructure engineers or product engineers with really great design sense and they're able to do design also or an engineer that has a really good sense of the business and can use that to figure out what to do next or an engineer that also loves talking to users and can just really channel what what users want to figure out what's next

[译文] [Boris]: 然后如果我去看特定的工程师，人们经常跨越不同的学科。所以一些最强大的工程师是混合了产品与基础设施的工程师（hybrid product and infrastructure engineers），或者是具有极强设计感并且也能做设计的产品工程师；或者是一个具有极好商业嗅觉并能利用它来弄清楚下一步该做什么的工程师；再或者是一个同样热爱与用户交谈，并且能够真正传达用户需求以弄清楚下一步计划的工程师。

[原文] [Boris]: so I think a lot of the people that will be rewarded the most over the next few years they won't just be AI native and they don't just know how to use these tools really well but also they're curious and they're generalists and they cross over multiple disciplines and can think about the broader problem they're solving rather than just the engineering part of it

[译文] [Boris]:所以我认为，在未来几年获得最大回报的许多人，他们将不仅仅是 AI 原住民（AI native），他们也不仅仅是非常擅长使用这些工具。此外，他们还充满好奇心，他们是通才，他们跨越多个学科，并且能够思考他们正在解决的更广泛的问题，而不仅仅是工程上的那部分。

[原文] [Lenny]: do you find these three separate disciplines still useful as a way to think about the team they're you know engineering design uh product management do you find like those even though they are now coding and contributing to thinking about what to build do you feel like those are three roles that will persist long term at least at this point

[译文] [Lenny]: 你觉得这三个独立的学科作为思考团队的一种方式仍然有用吗？它们是，你知道的，工程、设计、呃，产品管理。你觉得，即使他们现在都在写代码并参与思考要构建什么，你是否觉得这三个角色会长期存在？至少在目前这个阶段看。

[原文] [Boris]: i think in the short term it'll persist but one thing that we're starting to see is there's maybe a 50% overlap in these roles where a lot of people are actually just doing the same thing

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为在短期内它会保留，但我们开始看到的一件事是，这些角色之间可能有 50% 的重叠，其实很多人都只是在做同样的事情。

[原文] [Boris]: and some people have specialties for example I code a little bit more versus cat RPM does a little bit more you know coordination or planning or you know forecasting or things like this

[译文] [Boris]: 并且有些人有自己的专长，举个例子，我写代码稍微多一点，而 Cat，我们的产品经理（RPM，注：原音疑为 Our PM），做得更多的是，你知道的，协调（coordination）、计划，或者你知道的，预测（forecasting）之类的。

[原文] [Lenny]: stakeholder alignment

[译文] [Lenny]: 利益相关者对齐（stakeholder alignment）。

[原文] [Boris]: stakeholder alignment exactly i I do think that there's a future where I think by the end of the year what we're going to start to see is these start to get even murkier murkier where I think in some places the title software engineer is going to start to go away and it's just going to be replaced by builder or maybe it's just everyone's going to be a product manager and everyone codes or something like this

[译文] [Boris]: 完全没错，利益相关者对齐。我，我确实认为存在这样一个未来，我认为到今年年底，我们将开始看到这些界限变得越来越模糊。我认为在某些地方，“软件工程师”的头衔将会开始消失，它将仅仅被“构建者（builder）”取代，或者也许就是每个人都会成为产品经理并且每个人都写代码，大概就是这样。

[原文] [Lenny]: who says hiring has to be fair every founder and hiring manager I've been speaking with these days is feeling the same pressure hire the best people as fast as possible but recruiting is time consuming alignment is hard and competition for great talent keeps getting tighter

[译文] [Lenny]: （赞助商口播内容）谁说招聘必须是公平的？最近和我交谈过的每一位创始人和招聘经理都感受到了同样的压力：尽快招到最优秀的人。但招聘很耗时，达成共识很难，而且对顶尖人才的竞争变得越来越激烈。

[原文] [Lenny]: that's why teams like 11 Labs Brex Replet Deal and 5,000 other organizations use MetaView the AI company giving high performance teams a real unfair advantage in hiring they give you a suite of AI agents that behave like recruiting co-workers they find candidates for you based on your exact criteria take interview notes automatically gather insights across your hiring process and help you identify the best candidates in your pipeline

[译文] [Lenny]: 这就是为什么像 11Labs、Brex、Replit、Deel 等团队以及其他 5000 家机构都在使用 Metaview。这家 AI 公司为高绩效团队在招聘中提供了真正“不公平”的优势。他们为你提供一套表现得像你的招聘同事一样的 AI 智能体（AI agents）。它们根据你的确切标准为你寻找候选人，自动记录面试笔记，收集贯穿整个招聘流程的洞察，并帮助你在人才库中识别出最佳候选人。

[原文] [Lenny]: ai handles the recruiting toil and gives you a real source of truth that means hours saved per hire and a team focused on what matters most winning the right candidates don't let your competitors outhire you metav customers close roles 30% faster try Metaview today for free and get an extra month of sourcing at metaview.ai/lenny that's me lenny

[译文] [Lenny]: AI 处理了招聘的苦差事，并为你提供真实的来源依据。这意味着每一次招聘都能节省数小时，让团队能够专注于最重要的事情：赢下合适的候选人。别让你的竞争对手在招聘上超过你。Metaview 的客户完成职位招聘的速度提升了 30%。立即免费试用 Metaview，并在 metaview.ai/lenny 获得额外一个月的寻源服务。也就是 m e l e n n y（注：Lenny 的字母拼写拼写）。

[原文] [Lenny]: you talked about how you're enjoying coding more i actually did this little informal survey on Twitter i don't know if you saw this where I just asked I did three different polls i asked engineers are you enjoying your job more or less since adopting AI tools and then I did a separate one for PMs and one for designers

[译文] [Lenny]: 回到正题，你谈到了你有多么享受写代码。我实际上在 Twitter 上做了一个非正式的小型调查。我不知道你是否看到了，我仅仅是问了，我做了三个不同的投票。我问工程师们：自从采用 AI 工具以来，你是更享受你的工作了，还是变得不那么享受了？然后我为 PM（产品经理）做了一个单独的调查，又为设计师做了一个。

[原文] [Lenny]: and both engineers and PMs 70% of people said they are enjoying their job more and about 10% said they're enjoying their job less designers interestingly only 55% said they are enjoying their job more and 20% said they're enjoying their job less thought that was really interesting

[译文] [Lenny]: 无论是工程师还是 PM，70% 的人都表示他们更享受自己的工作了，大约 10% 的人说他们变得不那么享受了。有趣的是，对于设计师，只有 55% 的人说他们更享受自己的工作了，而 20% 的人说他们变得不那么享受了。我觉得这真的很有趣。

[原文] [Boris]: that's super interesting i' I'd love to talk to these people uh you know both in the more bucket and the less bucket just to understand do did you get to follow up with any of them

[译文] [Boris]: 这超级有趣，我、我很乐意和这些人谈谈，呃，你知道，不管是属于“更享受”阵营的，还是“较少享受”阵营的，仅仅是为了去理解。你，你有去对他们中的任何人进行后续跟进（follow up）吗？

[原文] [Lenny]: they a few people replied and we're actually doing a follow poll that we'll link to in the show notes of going deeper into some of the stuff but a lot of there's like you know the factors that make it more fun and less fun the designers they didn't share a lot actually of just like the people that are actually asked just like why are you enjoying your job less and I didn't hear a lot so I'm curious what's going on there

[译文] [Lenny]: 他们，有几个人回复了，我们实际上正在做一个后续的投票，我们会把链接放在节目注释（show notes）里，以更深入地探讨其中一些内容。但很多，比如你知道，使它变得更有趣和更无趣的因素，其实设计师们并没有分享太多。就像当我问那些人为什么你对工作的享受度降低了时，我并没有听到太多回答，所以我很好奇那里到底发生了什么。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah I I'm seeing this a little bit with uh at anthropic i think everyone is fairly technical this is something that we screen for you know when when people join we have there there's a lot of technical interviews that people go go through even for non-technical functions uh and you know our designers largely code

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，我，我在 Anthropic 稍微看到了一点这种情况。呃，我认为在 Anthropic 每个人都有相当的技术能力，这是我们在筛查（screen）时会看重的东西。你知道，当人们加入时，即使是非技术岗位的职能，人们也要经历许多技术面试。呃，而且你知道，我们的设计师大部分都会写代码。

[原文] [Boris]: so I think for them this is something that they have enjoyed from what I've seen because now instead of bugging engineers they can just like go in and code and even some designers that didn't code before have just started to do it and for them it's great cuz they can unblock themselves but I'd be really interested just to hear more people's experiences cuz I I I bet it's not uniform like that

[译文] [Boris]: 所以我认为对他们来说，根据我所看到的，这是他们一直很享受的事情。因为现在他们不需要再去烦扰工程师了，他们可以直接进去写代码。甚至一些以前不写代码的设计师也刚刚开始这么做了，这对他们来说很棒，因为他们可以自行扫除工作障碍（unblock themselves）。但我真的很感兴趣去听听更多人的经历，因为我、我打赌情况并非都是如此统一的。

[原文] [Lenny]: yeah so maybe if you're listening to this leave a comment if you're finding your jobs less fun and enjoying your job less cuz what you're saying and what I'm hearing from most people 70% of PMs and engineers are loving their job more that's like if you're not in that bucket you could something's going on

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的，所以也许如果你正在听这个节目，如果你发现你的工作变得无趣，享受度降低了，请留个言。因为你所说的，以及我从大多数人那里听到的，70% 的 PM 和工程师都更加热爱他们的工作了。就像如果你不在这个阵营里，你可能，就是发生了某些情况。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah yeah we do see that people use also different tools so for example our designers they use uh the cloud desktop app a lot more to to do their coding so you just download the desktop app there's a code tab uh it's right next to co-work and it's actually the same exact quad code so it's like the same agent and everything

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，是的，我们确实看到人们也会使用不同的工具。所以举个例子，我们的设计师，他们使用呃 Cloud（注：指 Claude）桌面应用程序来做代码编程的频率要高得多。所以你只需下载桌面应用，里面有一个代码（code）标签页，呃，它就在 co-work 的旁边，而且它实际上就是完全相同的 Quad Code，所以它就像是同一个智能体以及所有同样的东西。

[原文] [Boris]: we've had this for you know for many many months uh and so you can use this to code in a way that you don't have to open a bunch of terminals but you still get the power of quad code and the biggest thing is you can just run as many you know quad sessions in parallel as you want we you know we call this multi-quading

[译文] [Boris]: 我们拥有这个已经，你知道的，很多很多个月了。呃，所以你可以用这种方式来写代码，你不必打开一堆终端（terminals），但你仍然能获得 Quad Code 的能力。最重要的是，你只需要在并行运行任意数量的，你知道的，Quad 会话（sessions）即可，我们，你知道，我们称之为多 Quad 并发（multi-quading）。

[原文] [Boris]: so this is a it's it's a little more native I think for folks that are not engineers and really this is back to bringing the product to where the people are you don't want to make people use a different workflow you don't want to make them go out of their way to learn a new thing it's whatever people are doing if you can make that a little bit easier then that's just going to be a much better product that people enjoy more and this is just this principle of latent demand which I I think is just the the single most important principle in product

[译文] [Boris]: 所以这是一种，我认为对于非工程师人群来说，这是一种稍微更“原生（native）”的方式。其实这又回到了把产品带到人们所在的地方这个概念。你不希望强迫人们使用一种不同的工作流，你不希望让他们费尽周折去学习新东西。重点在于人们正在做什么，如果你能让那件事变得容易一点点，那么它就会成为一个优秀得多的、人们更享受的产品。而这仅仅是“潜在需求（latent demand）”的原则，我、我认为这是产品领域中最最重要的一条原则。

章节 8：产品哲学：挖掘“潜在需求（Latent Demand）”与 Co-work 的诞生

📝 本节摘要：

本节深入探讨了上一章结尾提及的“潜在需求（Latent Demand）”这一极其重要的产品原则。应 Lenny 的邀请，Boris 详细解释了这一概念，并以 Facebook Marketplace 和 Facebook Dating 为例，说明当用户为了某种目的而“滥用（abuse）”产品时，往往揭示了巨大的潜在市场。接着，他分享了 Anthropic 团队是如何观察到非技术人员用原本专为写代码设计的终端工具（Claude Code）来种西红柿、恢复照片甚至做 SQL 分析的。正是为了顺应这种“被滥用”的需求，团队在仅仅 10 天内打造出了针对非技术人群的突破性产品 Co-work。此外，Boris 还提出了“潜在需求”在 AI 时代的新维度：不仅要观察用户想做什么，还要让产品顺应“模型”本身想做的事情，给予模型自由而非将其框死。

[原文] [Lenny]: can you talk about that actually because I was going to go there explain what this principle is and and and just what happens when you unlock this latent demand

[译文] [Lenny]: 实际上你能谈谈那个吗？因为我正打算聊到那里，解释一下这个原则（principle）是什么，以及当你解锁这种潜在需求（latent demand）时会发生什么。

[原文] [Boris]: latent demand is this idea that if you build a product in a way that can be hacked or can be kind of mi misused by people in a way it wasn't really designed for to do kind of something that they want to do then this helps you as the product builder learn where to take the product next

[译文] [Boris]: 潜在需求是这样一种理念：如果你构建产品的方式能够被人们破解（hacked），或者以某种它原本并未设计好的方式被人们误用（misused），以此来做一些他们想做的事情，那么这就能帮助你作为产品构建者，了解到接下来应该把产品推向何方。

[原文] [Boris]: so an example of this is uh Facebook marketplace so the the manager for the team Fiona she she was actually the founding manager for uh the marketplace team and she talks about this a lot

[译文] [Boris]: 所以这方面的一个例子是呃 Facebook Marketplace（Facebook 市场）。该团队的经理 Fiona，她、她实际上是呃 Marketplace 团队的创始经理，她经常谈论这件事。

[原文] [Boris]: facebook Marketplace it started based on the observation back in uh this must have been like 20 2016 or or something like this that 40% of posts in Facebook groups are buying and selling stuff

[译文] [Boris]: Facebook Marketplace 最初是基于一个观察建立的，追溯到呃，这肯定大概是 20、2016 年左右的事情，当时 Facebook 群组（Facebook groups）中 40% 的帖子都是在买卖东西。

[原文] [Boris]: so this is crazy it's like people are abusing the Facebook groups product to buy and sell and it's not it's not abuse in kind of like a security sense it's abuse in that no one designed the product for this but they're kind of figuring it out because it's just so useful for this

[译文] [Boris]: 所以这很疯狂，就像是人们在滥用（abusing）Facebook 群组产品来进行买卖。而且这、这并不是安全意义上的那种滥用，这种滥用是指没有人为此设计过这个产品，但人们自己摸索出了门道，因为它用来做这个实在是太有用了。

[原文] [Boris]: and so it was pretty obvious if you build a better product to let people buy and sell they're going to like it and it was just very obvious that marketplace would be a hit from this

[译文] [Boris]: 因此很明显，如果你构建一个更好的产品让人们买卖，他们会喜欢的，所以非常明显，Marketplace 将会因此一炮而红。

[原文] [Boris]: and so the first thing was buy and sell groups so kind of special purpose groups to let people do that and the second product was marketplace

[译文] [Boris]: 于是第一件事就是建立买卖群组（buy and sell groups），即让人们做这件事的某种特殊用途的群组，而第二个产品就是 Marketplace。

[原文] [Boris]: uh Facebook dating I think started in a pretty similar place and I think that the observation was if you look at people looking if you look at uh profile views so people looking at each other's profiles on Facebook 60% of profile views were people that are not friends with each other that are opposite gender

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，Facebook Dating（Facebook 约会）我认为也是在一个非常相似的起点开始的。我想当时的观察结果是，如果你去看看人们在看什么，如果你去看看呃个人资料浏览量（profile views），也就是人们在 Facebook 上查看彼此的个人资料，60% 的个人资料浏览量是来自互为异性且彼此不是好友的人。

[原文] [Boris]: and so this is this kind of like you know like traditional kind of dating setup but you know people are just like creeping on each other so maybe if you can build a product for this it's you know it might work

[译文] [Boris]: 所以这就像是，你知道的，类似于传统的约会设定，但你知道，人们只是像在互相偷偷暗中观察（creeping on each other），所以也许如果你能为此构建一个产品，它，你知道的，可能会奏效。

[原文] [Boris]: um and so this idea of latent demand I think is just so powerful and for example this is also where co-work came from

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，所以潜在需求这个想法，我认为真的非常强大，举个例子，这也是 Co-work 诞生的由来。

[原文] [Boris]: we saw that for the last 6 months or so a lot of people using quad code were not using it to code there was someone on Twitter that was using it to grow tomato plants there was someone else using it to analyze their genome someone was using it to uh recover photos from a corrupted hard drive it was like uh wedding photos

[译文] [Boris]: 我们看到，在过去大概 6 个月里，许多使用 Quad Code 的人并没有用它来写代码。Twitter 上有人用它来种植番茄（tomato plants），还有人用它来分析他们的基因组（genome），有人用它来呃，从损坏的硬盘中恢复照片，大概是呃结婚照片。

[原文] [Boris]: uh there was someone that was using it for uh I think like uh they they were using it to analyze a MRI so there there's just all these different use cases that are not technical at all

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，还有人用它来，呃，我想大概是呃，他们用它来分析核磁共振成像（MRI）。所以这里、这里就出现了所有这些完全非技术的不同用例（use cases）。

[原文] [Boris]: and it was just really obvious like people are jumping through hoops to use a terminal to do this thing maybe we should just build a product for them and we saw this actually pretty early back in maybe May of last year

[译文] [Boris]: 而且情况真的非常明显，就像人们费尽周折（jumping through hoops）去使用一个终端（terminal）来做这件事，也许我们只应该为他们打造一个产品。而我们其实在很早的时候，大概在去年五月份就看到了这种现象。

[原文] [Boris]: i remember walking into the office and our data scientist Brendan was had a quad code on his uh computer he just had a terminal up and I was like I was shocked

[译文] [Boris]: 我记得走进办公室，我们的数据科学家 Brendan，他的呃电脑上运行着 Quad Code，他只是打开了一个终端，我当时大概就是震惊了。

[原文] [Boris]: i was like Brendan what what are you doing like you you figured out how to open the terminal which is you know it's a very engineering product even a lot of engineers don't want to use a terminal it's just like a it's like just like the lowest level way to to do your work um just really really uh kind of in the weeds of the computer

[译文] [Boris]: 我当时说：Brendan，你、你在干什么？就像你、你弄明白了怎么打开终端，而这，你知道，这是一个非常工程化的产品，甚至连许多工程师都不想使用终端。它就像是一个、就像是用来做你工作的最低层级的方式，嗯，真的非常、非常呃，可以说是深入到了计算机极其底层的细节中（in the weeds of the computer）。

[原文] [Boris]: and so he figured out how to use the terminal he downloaded Node.js he downloaded quad code and he was doing SQL analysis in a terminal and it was crazy and then the next week all the data scientists were doing the same thing

[译文] [Boris]: 所以他弄懂了怎么用终端，他下载了 Node.js，他下载了 Quad Code，然后他正在一个终端里做 SQL 分析，这太疯狂了。然后到了下个星期，所有的数据科学家都在做同样的事情。

[原文] [Boris]: so when you see people abusing the product in this way using it in a way that it wasn't designed in order to do something that is useful for them it's just such a strong indicator that you should just build a product and and people are going to like that it's something that's special purpose for that

[译文] [Boris]: 所以当你看到人们以这种方式滥用产品，以一种并非其设计初衷的方式使用它，目的是为了做一些对他们有用的事情时，这就是一个极其强烈的信号：你只管去构建一个产品，而且、而且人们会喜欢它的，就是某个为此具有特殊用途的东西。

[原文] [Boris]: i think now there there's also this kind of interesting second dimension to latent demand this is sort of the traditional framing is look at what people are doing make that a little bit easier empower them

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为现在，对于潜在需求还有一种有趣的第二个维度（second dimension）。这算是一种传统的框架（framing），即去看人们在做什么，让那件事变得稍微容易一点，赋予他们力量。

[原文] [Boris]: the modern framing that I've been seeing in the last 6 months is a little bit different and it's look at what the model is trying to do and make that a little bit easier

[译文] [Boris]: 而我在过去 6 个月里一直看到的现代框架有一点不同，那就是去看模型（model）试图做什么，并让它变得稍微容易一点。

[原文] [Boris]: and so when we first started building quad code I think a lot of the way that people approached designing things with LLMs is they kind of put the model in a box and they were like here's this application that I want to build here's the thing that I wanted to do model you're going to do this one component of it here's the way that you're going to interact with these tools and APIs and whatever

[译文] [Boris]: 所以当我们刚开始构建 Quad Code 时，我认为很多人设计基于大语言模型（LLMs）的东西的方式是，他们有点把模型关在了一个盒子里（put the model in a box），他们的态度就像是：这是我想要构建的应用程序，这是我想要做的东西，模型，你只能去完成其中的这一个组件。这里是你将与这些工具、API 或其他东西进行交互的方式。

[原文] [Boris]: and for cloud code we inverted that we said the product is the model we want to expose it we want to put the minimal scaffolding around it give it the minimal set of tools so it can do the things it can decide which tools to run it can decide in what order to run them in and so on

[译文] [Boris]: 而对于 Cloud Code，我们将其倒置了。我们说这个产品就是模型本身，我们想要将它暴露出来，我们想在它周围搭建最少的脚手架（scaffolding），给它最精简的工具集，这样它就能做这些事，它可以自己决定运行哪些工具，它可以决定以什么顺序运行它们等等。

[原文] [Boris]: and I I think a lot of this was just based on kind of latent demand of what the model wanted to do and so in research we call this being on distribution uh you want to see like what the model is trying to do in product terms latent demand is just the same exact concept but applied to a model

[译文] [Boris]: 而且我、我认为这其中很大一部分就是基于某种模型想要做什么的潜在需求。所以在研究领域，我们称之为符合分布（on distribution）。呃，你想要看看模型试图做什么，而用产品的术语来说，潜在需求完全就是同一个概念，只不过是应用在了模型上。

[原文] [Lenny]: you talked about co-work something that I saw you talk about when you launched that initially is you your team built that in 10 days that's insane uh I it came out I think it was like you know used by millions of people pretty quickly something like that being built in 10 days uh anything there any stories there other than just it was just you know we use cloud code to build it and that's it

[译文] [Lenny]: 你提到了 Co-work。我在你最初发布它时看到你谈论过一件事，就是你、你的团队在 10 天内就把它建成了，这太疯狂了。呃，它一经推出，我想就大概，你知道的，很快就被数百万人使用了，类似这样在一个只需 10 天就建成的产品上。呃，那里有什么除了仅仅是“你知道的，我们用 Cloud Code 构建了它，仅此而已”之外的任何故事吗？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah it's funny uh cloud code like I said when we released it was not immediately a hit it became a hit over time and there was a few inflection points

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，这很有趣。呃，Cloud Code 就像我说的，当我们发布它时，它并没有立刻引起轰动，它是随着时间的推移才火起来的，中间有几个拐点（inflection points）。

[原文] [Boris]: so one was you know like Opus 4 uh it just really really inflected and then in November it inflected and it just keeps inflecting the growth just keeps getting steeper and steeper and steeper every day

[译文] [Boris]: 所以其中一个是，你知道的，比如 Opus 4，呃，它就是真的、真的产生了明显的拐点，然后在 11 月它又迎来拐点，并且它不断迎来拐点，增长曲线每天都变得越来越陡峭、越来越陡峭。

[原文] [Boris]: but you know for the first few months it wasn't a hit uh people used it but a lot of people couldn't figure out how to use it they didn't know what it was for the model still like wasn't very good

[译文] [Boris]: 但你知道在头几个月，它并不是个爆款。呃，人们使用它，但很多人弄不明白怎么用它，他们不知道它是用来干什么的，而且那时的模型大概还不是很好。

[原文] [Boris]: co-work when we released it was just immediately a hit much more so than cloud code was early on i think a lot of the credit honestly just goes to like Felix and and Sam and the and Jenny and the the team that built this it's just an incredibly strong team

[译文] [Boris]: 而 Co-work，当我们发布它时，它立刻就火了，比 Cloud Code 早期要火得多。我认为很大一部分功劳，老实说，应该归功于比如 Felix 和、和 Sam，以及、以及 Jenny 和构建它的那个团队，那真是一支极其强大的团队。

[原文] [Boris]: and again the the place co came from is just this latent demand like we saw people using quad code for these non-technical things and we're trying to figure out what do we do

[译文] [Boris]: 再说一次，Co 诞生的源头恰恰就是这种潜在需求。就像我们看到人们将 Quad Code 用于这些非技术性的事情，然后我们试图弄清楚我们该怎么做。

[原文] [Boris]: and so for a few months the team was exploring they were trying all sorts of different options and in the end someone was just like okay what what if we just take quad code and put it in the desktop app and that's essentially the thing that worked

[译文] [Boris]: 因此在几个月的时间里，团队一直在探索，他们尝试了各种不同的选项。最后有人提出：好吧，如果我们直接拿 Quad Code 并把它放到桌面应用程序（desktop app）里会怎么样？这基本上就是最终奏效的那个点子。

[原文] [Boris]: and so over 10 days they just completely use quad code to build it uh and you know co-work is actually there's this very sophisticated security system that's that's built in and essentially these guard rails to make sure that the model kind of does the right thing it doesn't go off the rails

[译文] [Boris]: 于是，在 10 天的时间里，他们完全使用 Quad Code 构建了它。呃，而且你知道，Co-work 实际上内部内置了一个非常复杂的安全系统（security system），从本质上讲就是这些护栏（guard rails），以确保模型多多少少在做正确的事情，不会脱轨（go off the rails）。

[原文] [Boris]: so for example we ship an entire virtual machine with it and quad code just wrote all of this code so we just had to think about all right how do we make this a little bit safer a little more self-guided for uh people that are not engineers

[译文] [Boris]: 所以举个例子，我们在它里面附带（ship）了一个完整的虚拟机（virtual machine），而 Quad Code 写了所有的这些代码。所以我们只需思考，好吧，我们如何让它对呃、非工程师人群来说稍微安全一点，稍微更有一些自我引导（self-guided）能力。

[原文] [Boris]: it was fully implemented with quad code took about 10 days we launched it early you know it was still pretty rough and it's still pretty rough around the edges but this is kind of the way that we learn

[译文] [Boris]: 它是完全用 Quad Code 实现的，大约花了 10 天时间。我们很早就推出了它，你知道它仍然相当粗糙，而且它在细节上仍然相当粗糙，但这某种程度上就是我们学习的方式。

您可以随时回复“给我第9章内容”，我们将继续为您输出下一章！

章节 9：敏捷发布与 AI 安全的三层架构

📝 本节摘要：

本节内容围绕 AI 产品的“敏捷发布”与 Anthropic 核心的“AI 安全”理念展开。Lenny 感叹在不确定 AI 边界的情况下“提早发布以观察用户行为”是一种独特的策略。Boris 随即详细拆解了 Anthropic 评估模型安全的三层架构：第一层是底层的“对齐与机制可解释性（窥探神经元活动）”；第二层是实验室环境下的“评估测试（Evals）”；第三层则是将模型放入“真实环境（野生环境）”中观察。为了确保复杂的智能体产品在真实世界中不出轨，他们必须提前发布研究预览版。此外，Boris 还提到了 Chris Olah 在机制可解释性领域的开创性工作，并强调 Anthropic 会开源这些安全沙盒技术，以此推动整个行业的“向上竞优（Race to the top）”。

[原文] [Lenny]: yeah I think that point is so interesting and and it's so unique there's always been this idea release early learn from users get feedback iterate the fact that it's hard to even know what the AI is capable of and how people will try to use it is like is a unique reason to start releasing things early that'll help you as you exactly describe this idea of what is the latent demand in this thing that we didn't really know let's put it out there and see what people do with it

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的，我认为那一点非常有趣，而且它非常独特。一直以来都有一种理念：尽早发布，向用户学习，获取反馈，然后迭代（iterate）。而事实上，甚至很难知道 AI 的能力极限在哪里，以及人们将试图如何使用它，这就像是一个开始提早发布事物的独特理由。正如你所准确描述的关于“这东西里我们并不真正了解的潜在需求（latent demand）是什么”的想法一样，提早发布能帮助你，让我们把它放出去，看看人们会用它做什么。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah and in philanthropic as a safety lab the other dimension of that is safety because um you know like when you think about model safety there's a bunch of different ways to study it sort of the lowest level is alignment and mechanistic interpretability so this is when we train the model we want to make sure that it's safe we at this point have like pretty sophisticated technology to understand what's happening in the neurons to trace it and so for example like if there's a neuron related to deception we can start we're starting to get to the point where we can monitor it and understand that it's activating

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，而且在 Anthropic（注：原文误说为 philanthropic）作为一个安全实验室（safety lab），这件事的另一个维度就是安全（safety）。因为，嗯，你知道的，当你思考模型安全时，有一堆不同的方法来研究它。某种程度上最底层的方法是对齐（alignment）和机制可解释性（mechanistic interpretability）。所以在我们训练模型的时候，我们想要确保它是安全的。在现阶段，我们拥有了相当复杂的技术去理解神经元（neurons）中正在发生什么，去追踪它。所以举个例子，比如如果有一个与欺骗（deception）相关的神经元，我们能够开始、我们正开始达到这样一个阶段：我们可以监控它，并了解它正在被激活。

[原文] [Boris]: um and so this is just this is alignment this is mechanistic interpretability it's like the lowest layer the second layer is evolves and this is essentially a laboratory setting the model is in a petri dish and you study it and you put in a synthetic situation and just say okay like model what do you do and are you doing the right thing is it aligned is it safe

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，所以这只是、这就是对齐，这就是机制可解释性，它就像是最底层。第二层是评估测试（evals，注：原音发音为 evolves），这本质上是一个实验室环境（laboratory setting），模型就像在培养皿（petri dish）里，你研究它，你把它放入一个合成的场景（synthetic situation）中，然后说：“好吧，模型你会怎么做？你做的事情是对的吗？它是对齐的吗？它是安全的吗？”

[原文] [Boris]: and then the third layer is seeing how the model behaves in the wild and as the model gets more sophisticated this this becomes so important because it might look very good on these first two layers but not great on the third one

[译文] [Boris]: 然后第三层是观察模型在真实环境（in the wild，野生环境）中如何表现。随着模型变得越来越复杂，这变得非常重要，因为它可能在前两层看起来非常棒，但在第三层表现得并不好。

[原文] [Boris]: we released cloud code really early because we wanted to study safety and we actually used it within anthropic for I think four or 5 months or something before we released it because we weren't really sure like this is the first agent that you know the first big agent that I think folks had released at that point um it was definitely the first uh you know coding agent that became broadly used and so we weren't sure if it was safe and so we actually had to study it internally for a long time before we felt good about that

[译文] [Boris]: 我们非常早地发布了 Cloud Code（注：即 Claude Code），因为我们想要研究安全。实际上我们在发布它之前，在 Anthropic 内部使用了它大概四五个月或者更久，因为我们并不真的确定。像这是我认为在那个时候大家发布的第一个智能体（agent），你知道的第一款大型智能体。嗯，它绝对是第一个呃，你知道的被广泛使用的编程智能体（coding agent）。所以我们不确定它是否安全，因此我们实际上必须在内部研究它很长一段时间，直到我们对此感到放心。

[原文] [Boris]: and even since you know there's a lot that we've learned about alignment there's a lot that we've learned about safety that we've been able to put back into the model back into the product and for co-work it's pretty similar uh the model's in this new setting it's you know doing these tasks that are not engineering tasks it's an agent that's acting on your behalf it looks good on alignment it looks good on evals we try to internally it looks good we it with a few customers it looks good now we have to make sure it's safe in the real world and so that's why we release a little early that's why we call it a research preview um but yeah it's just it's constantly improving um and this is really the only way to to make sure that over the long term the model is aligned and it's doing the right things

[译文] [Boris]: 而且即使从那以后，你知道，关于对齐我们学到了很多，关于安全我们学到了很多，并且能够把这些重新投入到模型中，重新投入到产品中。对于 Co-work 来说也是非常相似的，呃，模型处于这个新的设定中，它你知道的，正在做这些非工程任务，它是一个代表你采取行动的智能体。它在对齐上看起来不错，在评估测试（evals）上看起来不错，我们在内部尝试过，看起来不错，我们和几个客户一起尝试过，看起来不错。现在我们必须确保它在现实世界中是安全的。所以这就是为什么我们稍微提前一点发布，这就是为什么我们称之为研究预览版（research preview）。嗯，但是是的，它只是、它在不断改进。嗯，这真的是长远来看确保模型对齐并且正在做正确事情的唯一方法。

[原文] [Lenny]: it's such a wild space that you work in where there's this insane competition and pace at the same time there's this fear that if you get some if the the you know the god can escape and cause damage and just finding that balance must be so challenging what I'm hearing is there's kind of these three layers and I know there's like this could be a whole podcast conversation is how you all think about the safety piece but just what I'm hearing is there's these three layers you work with uh there's kind of like observing the model thinking and operating there's tests eval that tell you this is doing bad things and then releasing it early i haven't actually heard a ton about that first piece that is so cool so you guys can there's an observability tool that can let you peek inside the model's brain and see how it's thinking and where it's heading

[译文] [Lenny]: 你工作的这个领域是如此疯狂，这里有着这种疯狂的竞争和节奏，同时又存在这样一种恐惧，那就是如果你们让一些、如果那个你知道的、“上帝”逃脱了并造成破坏。要找到那种平衡一定是非常具有挑战性的。我听到的是，有这三种层次，而且我知道这就像是、这本身就可以成为一整期播客的对话：你们所有人是如何思考安全这一块的。但我听到的是你们使用这三层架构，呃，有类似观察模型思考和运作的层次，有告诉你模型在做坏事的评估测试（eval），然后是尽早发布它。我实际上并没有听到太多关于第一部分的内容，那太酷了。所以你们可以、存在一种可观测性工具（observability tool），能让你们窥探模型大脑的内部，看看它是如何思考的以及它正走向何方？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah you should uh you should at some point have Chris Ola on the podcast because uh he he's just the industry expert on this he he invented this field of uh we call it mechanistic interpretability uh and the the idea is uh you know like at its core like what is your brain like what are what is it it's like it's a bunch of neurons that are connected and so what you can do is like in a human brain or animal brain you can study it at this kind of mechanistic level to understand what the neurons are doing

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，你应该呃，你应该在某个时候邀请 Chris Ola（注：即 Chris Olah，Anthropic 联合创始人之一）上你的播客，因为呃，他、他就是这方面的行业专家。他、他发明了这个呃我们称之为机制可解释性（mechanistic interpretability）的领域。呃，而且其理念是呃，你知道像在其核心层面上，比如你的大脑是什么样的？它像是什么？是什么构成了它？它就像是一堆连接在一起的神经元。所以你能做的就像在人类大脑或动物大脑中那样，你可以在这种机制层面上研究它，以理解神经元在做什么。

[原文] [Boris]: it turns out surprisingly a lot of this does translate to models also so model neurons are not the same as animal neurons but they behave similarly in a lot of ways and so we've been able to learn just a ton about the way these neurons work about you know this layer or this neuron maps to this concept how particular concepts are encoded how the model does planning how it how it thinks ahead

[译文] [Boris]: 令人惊讶的是，结果证明其中很多东西确实也适用于模型。所以模型神经元与动物神经元不一样，但它们在许多方面表现得很相似。所以我们已经能够学到大量关于这些神经元工作方式的知识，关于你知道的，这一层或这个神经元映射到这个概念，特定的概念是如何被编码的，模型是如何做计划（planning）的，它是如何、它是如何提前思考的。

[原文] [Boris]: you know like a long time ago we weren't sure if the model is just predicting the next token or is doing something a little bit deeper now I think there's actually quite strong evidence that it is doing something a little bit deeper and then the structures that were to do this are pretty sophisticated now where as the models get bigger it's not just like a single neuron that corresponds to a concept a single neuron might correspond to a dozen concepts and if it's activated together with other neurons this is called superposition and uh together it represents this more sophisticated concept and it's just something we're learning about all the time

[译文] [Boris]: 你知道，像在很久以前我们不确定模型是否只是在预测下一个 token，还是在做一些稍微更深层次的事情。现在我认为实际上有相当强有力的证据表明它正在做一些稍微更深层次的事情。而且现在的架构为了实现这一点已经相当复杂了。随着模型变得越来越大，不再仅仅是单个神经元对应一个概念，单个神经元可能对应十几个概念。并且如果它和其他神经元一起被激活，这被称为叠加态（superposition），呃，结合在一起，它代表了这个更复杂的概念。而这正是我们一直在学习的东西。

[原文] [Boris]: you know and philanthropic as as we think about the way this space evolves doing this in a way that is safe and good for the world is just this is the reason that we exist and this is the reason that everyone is at anthropic uh everyone that is here this is the reason why they're here

[译文] [Boris]: 你知道，在 Anthropic（注：原文发音再次误说为 philanthropic），当我们思考这个领域演进的方式时，以一种对世界安全且有益的方式来做这件事，这就是我们存在的原因，这也就是为什么每个人都在 Anthropic，呃，这里的每个人，这就是他们在这里的原因。

[原文] [Boris]: so a lot of this work we actually open source uh we publish it a lot um and you know we publish very freely to talk about this just so we can inspire other labs that are working on similar things to do it in a way that's safe and this is something that we've been doing for cloud code also we call this the race to the top uh internally

[译文] [Boris]: 因此，实际上我们将这项工作的很大一部分开源（open source）了。呃，我们经常发表相关文章。嗯，而且你知道，我们非常自由地发表文章来谈论这个，只是为了我们能启发其他正在研究类似事物的实验室，让他们以一种安全的方式来做这件事。这也是我们一直在为 Cloud Code（注：即 Claude Code）做的事情，我们在内部将其称之为“向上竞优（race to the top）”。

[原文] [Boris]: and so for cloud code for example we released an open source sandbox and this is a sandbox they can run the the agent in and it just makes sure that there's certain boundaries and it can't access like everything on your system uh and we made that open source and it actually works with any agent not just quad code because we wanted to make it really easy for others to do the same thing um so this is just the same principle of race to the top um we we want to make sure this thing goes well and this is just the this is the lever that we have

[译文] [Boris]: 所以以 Cloud Code 为例，我们发布了一个开源沙盒（open source sandbox）。这是一个他们可以在其中运行智能体的沙盒，它只是确保存在特定的边界，并且它不能像访问你系统上的所有东西那样畅通无阻。呃，我们把它开源了，而且它实际上适用于任何智能体，不仅仅是 Quad Code，因为我们想让其他人很容易也能做同样的事情。嗯，所以这完全是出于“向上竞优（race to the top）”的相同原则。嗯，我们、我们想要确保这件事朝着好的方向发展，而这恰恰是、这是我们所拥有的杠杆（lever）。

章节 10：并发智能体（Agents）时代的开发体验与乌克兰往事

📝 本节摘要：

本节对话中，Lenny 提出了一个有趣的现象：随着开发者越来越依赖智能体，一旦智能体卡住或停止运行，人们会产生一种“生产力流失”的焦虑感。Boris 分享了自己同时运行多个智能体（横跨终端、桌面端和 iOS 移动端）的日常，并指出“编程”的定义再次被改写——从写代码变成了“描述需求”。为此，他回忆了自己曾在苏联担任第一代打孔卡片程序员的祖父，以此说明编程范式的演变总是伴随着老一代的质疑。有趣的是，聊到家庭背景时，两人惊喜地发现彼此都出生于乌克兰的敖德萨，他们短暂分享了各自家庭移民美国的经历，并表达了对当下生活的深深感恩。

[原文] [Lenny]: incredible okay I definitely want to spend more time on that i I will follow up with this suggestion something else that I've been noticing in the in the field across engineers product managers others that work with agents is there's this kind of anxiety people feel when their agents aren't working there's a sense that like oh man Nza has a question I need to answer or it's like blocked on something or it's or I just like I I'm like there's all this productivity I'm losing i can't like I need to wake up and get it going again is that something you feel is that something your team feels do you feel like this is a a problem we need to track and think about

[译文] [Lenny]: 太不可思议了，好的，我绝对想在那上面花更多的时间，我会跟进这个建议的。另外我在这个领域，在与智能体（agents）共事的工程师、产品经理和其他人中注意到的一件事是，当他们的智能体不工作时，人们会感到一种焦虑。有这样一种感觉，就像是，哎呀，智能体（注：原音“Nza”疑为口误或字幕转录错误，指代 agent）有问题需要我回答，或者它像是卡在某件事上了，又或者我只是觉得，天哪，我正在流失所有这些生产力，我不能这样，我需要醒来让它重新运转起来。这是你体会到的感觉吗？这是你的团队体会到的感觉吗？你觉得这是我们需要追踪和思考的问题吗？

[原文] [Boris]: i always have a bunch of agents running so like at the moment I have like five agents running and at any moment like you know like I I wake up and I I stored a bunch of agents like the first thing I did when I woke up is like oh man I I want I really want to check this thing so like I opened up my phone quad iOS app code tab uh you know like agent do do blah blah blah cuz I I wrote some code yesterday and I was like wait did did I do this right i was like kind of double double guessing something and it and it was correct but now it's just like so easy to do this so I don't know there is this little bit of anxiety maybe I personally haven't really felt it just cuz I have agents running all the time um and I'm also just like not locked into a terminal anymore maybe a third of my code now is in the terminal but also a third is uh using the desktop app and then a third is the iOS app which is just so surprising cuz I did not think that this would be the way that I code uh in even in 2026

[译文] [Boris]: 我总是有一堆智能体在运行，所以比如现在我就有大概五个智能体在运行。而且在任何时候，比如你知道，就像我醒来，我存着一堆智能体，我醒来做的第一件事就是，哎呀，我想要、我真的想检查一下这东西。所以我就打开我的手机，Quad 的 iOS 应用程序，进入代码（code）标签页，呃，你知道的，就像让智能体做这个做那个，因为我昨天写了一些代码，然后我就会想，等等，我这样做对了吗？我算是在反复自我怀疑（double guessing）某件事，结果它是正确的。但现在做这件事简直太容易了。所以我不知道，可能会有这么一点点焦虑，也许我个人并没有真正感觉到，仅仅是因为我一直都有智能体在运行。嗯，而且我也不再被锁死在一个终端（terminal）里了，现在我可能只有三分之一的代码是在终端里写的，还有三分之一是呃使用桌面应用程序（desktop app）写的，剩下的三分之一是在 iOS 应用程序里写的，这太令人惊讶了，因为我没有想过这会是我写代码的方式，呃，甚至在 2026 年都没想过。

[原文] [Lenny]: i love that you describe it as coding still which is just talking to the to cloud code to code for you essentially and it's interesting that this is now like this is now coding coding now is describing what you want not writing actual code

[译文] [Lenny]: 我喜欢你仍然把它描述为“编程（coding）”，也就是仅仅通过与 Cloud Code（注：即 Claude Code）交谈来让它本质上为你写代码。有趣的是，这就是现在的，这就变成了现在的“编程”。现在的编程是描述你想要什么，而不是编写实际的代码。

[原文] [Boris]: i I I kind of wonder if uh the people that used to code using punch cards or whatever if you show them software what they would have said isn't that crazy and I I remember reading something this was maybe like very early versions of like ACM uh like like magazine or something where people were saying no it's not the same thing like this isn't this isn't really coding uh and you know like they called it programming I think coding is kind of a new word but I kind of think about this like in the back in the you know my family is from the Soviet Union I you know I I was born in Ukraine um and my grandpa was actually one of the first programmers in the Soviet Union and he programmed using punch cards

[译文] [Boris]: 我、我有点好奇，呃，那些过去使用打孔卡片（punch cards）或类似东西写代码的人，如果你给他们看软件（software），他们会说什么？那不是很疯狂吗？我、我记得读过一些东西，这可能是比如非常早期版本的 ACM（国际计算机学会）呃类似杂志之类的东西，当时人们说不，这不是同一回事，这、这不算是真正的编程（coding），呃，而且你知道的，他们称之为程序设计（programming）。我认为 coding（写代码/编程）某种程度上是个新词，但我有点想起了这个，比如回溯到过去，你知道我的家庭来自苏联，我，你知道我、我出生在乌克兰。嗯，而我的祖父实际上是苏联第一批程序员之一，他就是使用打孔卡片进行程序设计的。

[原文] [Boris]: And uh you know like he he told my mom uh growing up told these stories of like or she she told these stories that when she was growing up he would bring these punch cards home and there was these like big stacks of punch cards and for her she would like draw all over them with crayons and that was like her childhood memory but for him that was like his experience of programming and he actually never saw the software transition but at some point it did transition to software and I think there's probably this older generation of programmers that just didn't take software very seriously and they would have been like well you know it's not really coding but I I think this is a field that just has always been changing in this way uh

[译文] [Boris]: 并且，呃，你知道的，他、他在我妈妈成长的过程中告诉她这些故事，或者说，她、她讲述了这些故事：当她还在成长的时候，他会把这些打孔卡片带回家，那是像一大叠一大叠的打孔卡片，对她来说，她会用蜡笔在上面到处画画，那就像是她的童年记忆。但对于他来说，那就是他编程的体验。他实际上从未见过向软件的过渡，但在某个时刻它确实过渡到了软件。我认为大概会有这样老一代的程序员，他们只是没有太把软件当回事，他们可能会说，嗯，你知道它并不是真正的编程（coding）。但我、我认为这就是一个总是以这种方式在不断改变的领域。呃。

[原文] [Lenny]: I don't think you know this but I was born in Ukraine also

[译文] [Lenny]: 我想你可能不知道这个，但我也是在乌克兰出生的。

[原文] [Boris]: oh I don't know yeah which time i'm I'm from Odessa

[译文] [Boris]: 噢我不知道，是的。哪个时期？我、我来自敖德萨（Odessa）。

[原文] [Lenny]: oh me too

[译文] [Lenny]: 噢我也是。

[原文] [Boris]: what yeah that's crazy wow incredible what a moment uh maybe related in some small way uh what year did your home did you leave and your family leave uh

[译文] [Boris]: 什么？是吗？这太疯狂了。哇，不可思议，多么奇妙的时刻。呃，也许在某种微小的层面上有关联，呃，你们家是哪一年、你和你的家人是哪一年离开的？呃。

[原文] [Lenny]: we came in 95 okay we left in ' 88 a little earlier oh yeah what a different life that would have been to not to not leave huh yeah

[译文] [Lenny]: 我们是 95 年来的。好的，我们是在 88 年离开的，早了一点。噢，是的，如果没有、如果没有离开的话，那将会是怎样一种截然不同的生活啊，哈，是的。

[原文] [Boris]: i just I feel I feel so lucky every day that uh get get to grow up here

[译文] [Boris]: 我只是，我觉得、我每天都觉得自己是如此幸运，呃，能够、能够在这里长大。

[原文] [Lenny]: yeah my family anytime there's like a toaster or a meal they're just like to America it's like okay enough about that but you get it you know once you start really thinking about what life could have been

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的，我的家人每当有比如祝酒（注：原音为 toast，字幕误作 toaster）或聚餐时，他们总是会说“敬美国”。感觉就像是，好吧，关于这个说得够多了。但你懂的，你知道一旦你开始真正去思考生活原本可能会是什么样子。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah yeah exactly yeah we do we do the same toast but it's still vodka it's still vodka absolutely

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，是的，完全正确。是的，我们做、我们做同样的祝酒，但喝的仍然是伏特加（vodka），绝对仍然是伏特加。

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章节 11：构建 AI 产品的黄金法则与“苦涩的教训（The Bitter Lesson）”

📝 本节摘要：

本节对话中，Lenny 向 Boris 询问构建 AI 产品的建议。Boris 分享了三大核心法则：首先是“不要试图框死模型”，即不要用僵化的工作流去限制它，而是为其提供目标和工具，让它自行弄清楚如何解决；其次是遵循 Rich Sutton 提出的“苦涩的教训（The Bitter Lesson）”，即永远把赌注押在更通用的模型上，而不是过度依赖微调小模型或人为搭建脚手架；最后一条法则是“为 6 个月后的模型构建产品”，即使这意味着最初几个月的产品市场契合度会很低。Boris 预判，未来的模型将在长时间无人值守运行以及使用工具的能力上实现质的飞跃。

[原文] [Lenny]: oh man okay let me ask you a couple more things here you shared some really cool tips for how to get the most out of AI how to build on AI how to build great products on AI one tip you shared is give your team as many tokens as they want just like let them experiment you also shared just advice generally of just build towards the model where the model is going not to where it is today what other advice do you have for folks that are trying to build AI products

[译文] [Lenny]: 天哪，好的，让我在这一块再多问你几件事。你分享了一些非常酷的技巧，关于如何充分利用 AI，如何在 AI 基础上进行构建，如何基于 AI 构建伟大的产品。你分享的一个技巧是给你的团队尽可能多的 tokens，仅仅是让他们去实验。你还分享了一个总体建议，就是要朝着模型未来的发展方向去构建，而不是针对它今天的状态。对于那些正试图构建 AI 产品的人，你还有什么其他的建议吗？

[原文] [Boris]: i'd probably share a few more things so one is don't try to box the model in um I I think a lot of people's instinct when they build on the model is they try to make it behave a very particular way they're like this is a component of a bigger system i I think some examples of this are people layering like very strict workflows on the model for example you know to say like you must do step one then step two then step three and you have this like very fancy orchestrator doing this but actually almost always you get better results if you just give the model tools you give it a goal and you let it figure it out

[译文] [Boris]: 我可能还会分享几件事。其一是，不要试图把模型框死（box the model in）。嗯，我、我认为很多人在基于模型进行构建时的直觉是，他们试图让它以一种非常特定的方式运作，他们的想法就像是“这是某个更大系统的一个组件”。我、我认为这方面的一些例子是，人们在模型上叠加极其严格的工作流（workflows），比如，你知道的，去规定你必须先做第一步，然后做第二步，再做第三步，然后你用一个极其花哨的编排器（orchestrator）来做这件事。但实际上，如果你只是给模型提供工具，给它一个目标，然后让它自己去弄清楚，你几乎总是能得到更好的结果。

[原文] [Boris]: i think a year ago you actually needed a lot of the scaffolding but nowadays you don't really need it so you know I I don't know what to call this principle but it's like you know like ask not what the model can do for you maybe maybe it's something like this just think about how do you give the model the tools to do things don't try to overcurate it don't try to put it into a box don't try to give it a bunch of context up front give it a tool so that it can get the context it needs you're just going to get better results

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为在一年前，你确实需要搭建很多脚手架（scaffolding），但如今你真的不需要了。所以你知道，我、我不知道该如何称呼这个原则，但它就像是，你知道的，像那句“不要问模型能为你做什么”，也许、也许就像是这样：只要去思考你该如何给模型赋予做事所需的工具，不要试图去过度干预（overcurate）它，不要试图把它关在盒子里，不要试图在前期给它塞一堆上下文（context），给它一个工具，这样它就能自己获取所需的上下文，你就会得到更好的结果。

[原文] [Boris]: i think a second one is um maybe actually like a a more even more general version of this principle is just the bitter lesson uh and actually for the quad code team we have a you know hopefully hopefully um listeners have have read this but Rich Sutton had this blog post maybe 10 years ago called the bitter lesson uh and it's actually a really simple idea his idea was that the more general model will always outperform the more specific model and I think for him he was talking about like self-driving cars and other domains like this but actually there's just so many corlaries to the bitter lesson and for me the biggest one is just always bet on the more general model

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为第二个是，嗯，也许实际上就像是这个原则的一个更、甚至更为广泛的版本，那就是“苦涩的教训（the bitter lesson）”。呃，事实上对于 Quad Code 团队来说，我们有一个，你知道，希望、希望嗯，听众们已经读过这个了，但 Rich Sutton 在大概 10 年前写过一篇名为《苦涩的教训》的博客文章。呃，它实际上是一个非常简单的理念。他的理念是，更通用的模型总是会胜过更专门（specific）的模型。而且我认为对他来说，他当时是在谈论比如自动驾驶汽车（self-driving cars）和其他类似这样的领域。但实际上，对于《苦涩的教训》有太多太多的推论（corollaries）了，而对我来说，最大的一条推论就是：永远把赌注押在更通用的模型上。

[原文] [Boris]: and you know over the long term like don't don't try to use tiny models for stuff don't try to like fine-tune don't try to do any of this stuff there's like some applications you know there's some reasons to do this but almost always try to bet on the more general model if you can if you have that flexibility um and so these workflows are essentially a way that uh you know it's it's not it's not a general model it's putting the scaffolding around it and in general what we see is maybe scaffolding can improve performance maybe 10 20% something like this but often these gains just get wiped out with the next model uh so it's almost better to just wait for the next one

[译文] [Boris]: 并且你知道，从长远来看，比如不要、不要试图用微型模型（tiny models）来做事情，不要试图去微调（fine-tune），不要试图去做任何这类事情。虽然有比如一些应用场景，你知道有某些理由需要这样做，但如果可能的话，如果你有这种灵活性，几乎永远都要试图把赌注押在更通用的模型上。嗯，所以这些工作流本质上是一种呃，你知道它、它不是一个通用的模型，而是在它周围搭建脚手架。而且总的来说我们看到的是，也许脚手架能提高大概 10%、20% 或者类似这样的性能，但通常这些收益在下一个模型发布时就会被一抹而空。呃，所以基本上还不如直接等待下一个模型的到来。

[原文] [Boris]: and I think maybe this is a final principle and something that quad code I think got right in hindsight from the very beginning we bet on building for the model six months from now not for the model of today and for the very early versions of the product it just wrote so little of my code cuz I I didn't trust it cuz you know it was like sonnet 3.5 then it was like 3.6 or forget 3 3.5 new whatever whatever whatever name we gave it um these models just weren't very good at coding yet um they were they were getting there but it was still pretty early

[译文] [Boris]: 我想也许这是最后一个原则了，而且也是我认为 Quad Code 事后看来做对了一点的事情。从一开始，我们就押注于为 6 个月后的模型构建产品，而不是为今天的模型。而在该产品非常早期的版本里，它只写了我极少量的代码，因为我、我不信任它。因为你知道，当时就像是 Sonnet 3.5，然后像是 3.6，或者是忘了具体是 3、新 3.5 还是随便我们给它起了什么名字。嗯，这些模型在编程方面还不是非常好。嗯，它们在进步，但这仍然是很早期的阶段。

[原文] [Boris]: so back then the model did uh you used git for me it automated some things but it it really wasn't doing a huge amount of my coding and so the bet with quad code was at some point the model gets good enough that it can just write a lot of the code and this is a thing that we first started seeing with opus 4 and sonnet 4 and opus 4 was our first kind of ASL3 class model uh that we released back in May and we just saw this inflection because everyone started to use quad code for the first time and that was kind of when our growth really went exponential and like I said it's kind of it stayed there

[译文] [Boris]: 所以在那个时候，模型确实呃，你用来帮我跑 Git 命令，它自动化了一些东西，但它、它真的没有在做我大量的编程工作。因此，我们对 Quad Code 押下的赌注是，在某个时刻，模型会变得足够好，能够直接写下大量的代码。而这也是我们在 Opus 4 和 Sonnet 4 上首先开始看到的事情。Opus 4 是我们第一款某种意义上的 ASL3 级别模型（注：ASL，Anthropic Safety Level），呃，那是我们在五月份发布的。我们恰好目睹了这个拐点（inflection），因为每个人都第一次开始使用 Quad Code，那也是我们的增长真正呈指数级飙升的时候。而且正如我所说，它多多少少就一直保持着那种势头。

[原文] [Boris]: so I think this is some this is advice that I actually give to to a lot of folks especially people building startups it's going to be uncomfortable cuz your product market fit won't be very good for the first 6 months but if you build for the model 6 months out when that model comes out you're just going to hit the ground running and the product is going to click and and start to work

[译文] [Boris]: 所以我认为这是某种、这是我实际上会给很多人的建议，特别是那些正在创办初创公司（startups）的人：这会让人感到不舒服，因为在头 6 个月里你的产品市场契合度（product market fit）不会很好。但是，如果你为 6 个月后的模型构建产品，当那个模型问世时，你就能迅速进入状态大展宏图（hit the ground running），产品就会瞬间契合（click），并且开始发力奏效。

[原文] [Lenny]: and when you say build for the model 6 months out what is what is it that you think people can assume will happen is it just generally it will get better at things is it just like okay it's like almost good enough and that's a sign that it'll probably get better at that thing is there any advice there

[译文] [Lenny]: 当你说为 6 个月后的模型构建产品时，到底是什么、你认为人们可以假设什么事情会发生？是仅仅在普遍意义上它会变得更擅长做事情吗？是不是就像，好吧，它好像几乎足够好了，这就表明它可能会在那个事情上变得更好？在那方面有什么建议吗？

[原文] [Boris]: i think that's a good way to do it like you know obviously within an AI lab we get to see the specific ways that it gets better so it's a it's a little unfair but we we also we try to talk about this so you know like one of the ways that it's going to get better is it's going to get better and better at using tools and using computers this is a bet that I would make uh another one is it's going to get better and better for long for running for long periods of time

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为那是一个很好的思考方式。像你知道的，显然在一个 AI 实验室内部，我们能看到它变好的具体方式，所以这有、这有一点不公平，但我们、我们也试图公开谈论这个。所以你知道，它将会变好的方式之一是，它将会变得越来越擅长使用工具（using tools）和使用计算机（using computers），这是我会押注的一点。呃，另一点是，它在长时间的，在长时间运行方面将会变得越来越好。

[原文] [Boris]: and this is a place you know like there's all sorts of studies about this but if you just trace the trajectory or you know maybe even like for my own experience when I used Sonnet 3.5 back you know a year ago it could run for maybe 15 or 30 seconds before before it started going off the rails and you just really had to hold its hand through any kind of complicated task but nowadays with Opus 4.6 fix you know on average it'll run maybe 10 30 20 30 minutes unattended and I'll just like start another quad and have it do something else and you know like I said I always have a bunch of quads running uh and they can also run for hours or even days at a time i think there are some examples where they ran for many weeks

[译文] [Boris]: 而这是一个，你知道比如有很多关于这个的研究，但如果你只是追踪其发展轨迹，或者你知道，甚至只是就我自己的经验而言，比如在一年前我使用 Sonnet 3.5 时，它可能只能运行大约 15 或 30 秒，之后、之后它就开始脱轨（going off the rails）了，你真的必须在任何复杂的任务中“牵着它的手（hold its hand）”来指导它。但如今使用 Opus 4.6 Fix，你知道它平均可能会在无人值守（unattended）的情况下运行大概 10、30、20、30 分钟。而我只会像是开启另一个 Quad 让它去做点别的事情。而且你知道，就像我说的，我总是有好几个 Quad 在运行。呃，并且它们也可以一次连续运行数小时甚至数天，我想还有一些它们运行了好几个星期的例子。

[原文] [Boris]: and so I think over time this is going to become more and more normal where the models are running for a very very long period of time and you you don't have to sit there and babysit them anymore

[译文] [Boris]: 因此我认为，随着时间的推移，这将会变得越来越常态化，模型将运行非常、非常长的一段时间，而你、你不需要再坐在那里像保姆一样照看（babysit）它们了。

章节 12：提升生产力的 Claude Code 高阶使用技巧

📝 本节摘要：

本节中，Lenny 询问了针对 Claude Code 用户的具体实用建议。Boris 分享了三个提升生产力的高阶技巧：首先，始终坚持使用最强大（也是最聪明）的模型（如 Opus 4.6），因为即使它单次调用较贵，但由于无需反复纠正错误，最终反而更省 Token 和成本；其次，强烈建议使用“计划模式（Plan Mode）”，让模型在正式写代码前先与人类对齐思路；最后，鼓励大家尝试除了终端之外的其他交互界面，如桌面端或移动端。在谈及如何看待市面上的竞品（如 Codeex）时，Boris 坦言自己很少关注竞品，而是将全部精力放在倾听用户反馈和打磨自身产品上。

[原文] [Lenny]: so we just talked about tips for building AI products any tips for someone just using cloud code say for the first time or just someone already using cloud code that wants to get better what are like a couple pro tips that you could share

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以我们刚刚讨论了构建 AI 产品的技巧，那么对于刚刚第一次使用 Cloud Code（注：即 Claude Code）的人，或者已经在使用 Cloud Code 并且想要用得更好的人，你有什么提示吗？你能分享几个高阶技巧（pro tips）吗？

[原文] [Boris]: i will give a caveat which is there's no one right way to use quad code so I I can share some tips but honestly this is a dev tool developers are all different developers have different preferences they have different environments so there's just so many ways to use these tools there's no one right way um you you sort of have to find your own path luckily you can ask Quad Code uh it's able to make recommendations it can edit your settings it kind of knows about itself so it can help it can help with that

[译文] [Boris]: 我要先声明一点（caveat），那就是使用 Quad Code 并没有唯一正确的方法。所以我、我可以分享一些技巧，但老实说，这是一个开发工具（dev tool），开发者都是不同的，开发者有不同的偏好，他们有不同的环境，所以使用这些工具有很多很多种方式，没有唯一正确的方法。嗯，你、你多多少少必须找到你自己的路径。幸运的是，你可以直接问 Quad Code，呃，它能够提出建议，它可以编辑你的设置，它多多少少了解自己，所以它能帮忙，它能在这方面提供帮助。

[原文] [Boris]: a few tips that generally I find pretty useful so number one is just use the most capable model um currently that's Opus 4.6 i have maximum effort enabled always

[译文] [Boris]: 有几个技巧我通常觉得非常有用。所以第一点是，仅仅使用最强大的模型（most capable model），嗯，目前那就是 Opus 4.6，我总是开启“最大努力（maximum effort）”模式。

[原文] [Boris]: the thing that happens is sometimes people try to use a less expensive model like sonnet or something like this but because it's less intelligent it actually takes more tokens in the end to do the same task um and so it's actually not obvious that it's cheaper if you use a less expensive model often it's actually cheaper and less token intensive if you use the most capable model because it can just do the same thing much faster with less correction less uh less handholding and so on so that's the first tip is just use the best model

[译文] [Boris]: 经常发生的事情是，有时人们试图使用一个没那么昂贵的模型，比如 Sonnet 或类似的东西，但因为它不够聪明，为了完成同样的任务，它实际上最终会消耗更多的 tokens。嗯，所以如果你使用一个较便宜的模型，它实际上并不一定更省钱。通常来说，如果你使用最强大的模型，实际上会更便宜且没那么消耗 token，因为它可以用快得多的速度完成同一件事，并且需要更少的纠正，更少的呃、更少的手把手指导（handholding）等等。所以那是第一个技巧，直接使用最好的模型。

[原文] [Boris]: the second one is use plan mode i start almost all of my tasks in plan mode maybe like 80% and plan mode is actually really simple all it is is we inject one sentence into the model's prompt to say please don't write any code yet that's it like there's there's actually like nothing fancy going on it's just the simplest thing

[译文] [Boris]: 第二个技巧是使用计划模式（plan mode）。我几乎所有的任务都是在计划模式下开始的，大概占到 80%。计划模式实际上非常简单，它所有的原理仅仅是我们向模型的提示词（prompt）中注入了一句话，即：“请不要先写任何代码”，就这么简单。就像其实、其实并没有什么花哨的东西，它就是最简单的东西。

[原文] [Boris]: um and so for people that are in the terminal it's just shift tab twice and that gets you into plan mode uh for people in the desktop app there's a little button on web there's a little button it's coming pretty soon to mobile also uh and we just launched it for the SWAC integration too

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，所以对于在终端里操作的人来说，只需要按两次 Shift+Tab，这就让你进入了计划模式。呃，对于在桌面应用程序（desktop app）里的人，那里有一个小按钮；在网页端（web）也有一个小按钮；它很快也会登陆移动端（mobile）。呃，而且我们也刚刚为 SWAC（注：发音口误，实际指 Slack）集成功能推出了这个模式。

[原文] [Boris]: uh so plan mode is the second one and uh essentially the model would just go back and forth with you once the plan looks good then you let the model execute i auto accept edits after that because if the plan looks good it's just going to oneshot it it'll get it right the first time almost every time with Opus 4.6

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，所以计划模式是第二个技巧。并且呃，从本质上讲，模型只会和你来回沟通（go back and forth），一旦计划看起来不错，然后你再让模型执行。在那之后我会自动接受（auto accept）编辑，因为如果计划看起来不错，它就会一次性搞定它（oneshot it），使用 Opus 4.6，它几乎每次都能在第一次就把它做对。

[原文] [Boris]: and then maybe the third tip is just play around with different interfaces i think a lot of people when they think about cloud code they think about a terminal um and you know of course we support every terminal we support like Mac Windows you know like whatever terminal you might use it works perfectly but we actually support a lot of other form factors too like you know we have like iOS and Android apps we have a desktop app there's uh you know the Slack integration there's all sorts of things that we support so I would just like play around with these

[译文] [Boris]: 然后也许第三个技巧就是，去试玩各种不同的交互界面（interfaces）。我认为很多人一想到 Cloud Code 时，他们就会想到终端（terminal）。嗯，而且你知道，当然，我们支持每一种终端，我们支持比如 Mac、Windows，你知道，无论你可能使用什么终端，它都能完美运行。但实际上我们还支持许多其他的产品形态（form factors），比如你知道，我们有像 iOS 和 Android 的应用程序，我们有一个桌面应用程序，有呃你知道的 Slack 集成（Slack integration），我们支持各种各样的东西。所以我只是想说，去试着把玩这些东西。

[原文] [Boris]: and again it's like every engineer is different everyone that's building is different just find the thing that feels right to you and and use that you don't have to use a terminal it's the same quad agent running everywhere

[译文] [Boris]: 再说一遍，就像每位工程师都是不同的一样，每个在构建东西的人都是不同的。去找到那个让你感觉合适的界面，然后去使用它，你不必非得使用终端，在每个地方运行的都是同一个 Quad 智能体（quad agent）。

[原文] [Lenny]: amazing okay just a couple more questions to round things out what's your take on Codeex how do you feel about that product how do you feel about where they're going just kind of competing in this very competitive space uh in coding agents

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。好的，最后再问几个问题来收个尾。你对 Codeex 有什么看法？你对那个产品感觉如何？你对他们的发展方向有什么感觉？在编程智能体（coding agents）这个竞争极其激烈的领域里多多少少存在竞争关系。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah I actually haven't really used it but uh I I think I did use it maybe when it came out it looked a lot like Quad Code to me so that was kind of flattering it's I think it's actually good you know to have more competition cuz people should get to choose and hopefully it forces all of us to like do a even better job

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，我实际上并没有真正用过它。但是呃，我、我想我可能在它刚推出的时候用过一下。在我看来它很像 Quad Code，所以那有点让人感到受宠若惊（flattering）。我认为、我认为实际上这是件好事，你知道，有更多的竞争，因为人们应该有选择的权利，并且希望这能迫使我们所有人，比如，把工作做得更好。

[原文] [Boris]: honestly for our team though we're just focused on solving the problems that users have um so for us you know we don't spend a lot of time looking at competing products we don't really try the other products i you know you kind of you want to be aware of them you want to know they exist but for me I just I love talking to users i love making the product better um I I love just acting on on feedback so it's really just about building a building a good product

[译文] [Boris]: 但老实说，对于我们的团队而言，我们只是专注于解决用户所面临的问题。嗯，所以对我们来说，你知道，我们不会花大量的时间去研究竞品（competing products），我们并不真的去尝试其他产品。我，你知道，你多多少少想要了解它们的存在，你想要知道它们在那里，但对我来说，我只是、我热爱与用户交谈，我热爱把产品做得更好。嗯，我、我热爱仅仅根据反馈采取行动，所以这真的就只是关于构建一个、构建一个好的产品。

章节 13：后 AGI 时代的畅想与闪电问答

📝 本节摘要：

本节迎来了节目的尾声与“闪电问答（Lightning Round）”环节。面对“实现 AGI 后的人生规划”这一终极问题，Boris 分享了自己曾在日本乡村自制味噌的田园生活经验，并笑称 AGI 之后大概会回归这种需要极度耐心的慢节奏生活。在闪电问答中，他推荐了对他影响深远的编程书籍和几部科幻巨作（如《加速器》与《流浪地球》），并强烈安利了自家的新产品 Co-work 以及《Acquired》播客。最后，Boris 分享了他的人生格言——“运用常识（Use common sense）”，并解释了自己近期在 Twitter（现X）上异常活跃的原因：趁着假期“无聊”，顺手用 AI 极速修复用户的 bug。伴随着对未来的期许与感激，本期播客圆满结束。

[原文] [Lenny]: maybe a last question so I talked to Ben man co-founder of Anthropic what what to talk to you about he had a bunch of suggestions which I've integrated throughout our chat one question he had for you is what's your plan post AGI what do you think you're going to be doing what's your life like once we hit AGI whatever that means

[译文] [Lenny]: 也许是最后一个问题，我和 Anthropic 的联合创始人 Ben Man 聊过要和你谈些什么，他提了一堆建议，我已经把它们穿插在我们的谈话中了。他问你的一个问题是：在 AGI（通用人工智能）实现之后，你的计划是什么？你觉得你将会做什么？一旦我们实现了 AGI——不管那意味着什么——你的生活会是什么样的？

[原文] [Boris]: so before I joined Anthropic um I was actually living in rural Japan and it was like a totally different lifestyle um I was like the only engineer in the town i was the only English speaker in the town it was just like a totally different vibe like a couple times a week I would like bike to the farmers market uh and you know you like bike by like rice patties and stuff it was just like a totally different speed than just complete opposite of San Francisco

[译文] [Boris]: 在加入 Anthropic 之前，嗯，我其实住在日本的乡村，那是一种完全不同的生活方式。嗯，我大概是那个镇上唯一的工程师，也是镇上唯一说英语的人，那真的是一种完全不同的氛围。比如一周有几次，我会骑自行车去农贸市场（farmers market），呃，而且你知道的，你会骑车路过稻田之类的地方，那完全是一种和旧金山截然相反的、完全不同的生活节奏。

[原文] [Boris]: one of the things that I really liked is a way that we got to know our neighbors and we kind of built friendships is by trading like pickles so in that in the town where we lived it was actually like everyone made like miso everyone made pickles uh and so I actually got like decently good at making miso um and you know I made a bunch of batches

[译文] [Boris]: 我非常喜欢的一件事是，我们认识邻居并建立友谊的方式是交换腌菜（pickles）。所以在我、在我们居住的那个镇上，实际上每个人都会做味噌（miso），每个人都会做腌菜。呃，所以我实际上在做味噌方面变得相当拿手了。嗯，而且你知道我做了好几批。

[原文] [Boris]: and um this is something that I still make uh miso is this interesting thing where it teaches you to think on these longtime skills that's just very different than engineering cuz like uh you know like a batch of white miso takes like at least three months to make and a red miso is like you know 2 3 4 years you just have to be very patient you kind of mix it up and then you just like wet it sit you have to be very very patient

[译文] [Boris]: 嗯，而且这件东西我至今仍在我做。呃，味噌是一件很有趣的事情，它教会你在这种很长的时间尺度（longtime skills/scales）上去思考，这和工程学截然不同。因为，呃，你知道像做一批白味噌至少需要三个月的时间，而红味噌则需要，你知道的，2 年、3 年、4 年。你必须非常有耐心，你大概把它混合好，然后就是把它放着静置（wet it sit，注：应为 let it sit），你必须非常非常有耐心。

[原文] [Boris]: so I the thing that I love about it is just thinking in these longtime skills uh and yeah I think postGI or if I wasn't at anthropic I'd probably be making miso

[译文] [Boris]: 所以我、我喜欢它的地方就在于，能够以这种极长的时间尺度来思考问题。呃，是的，我想在 AGI 之后（postGI，注：即 post-AGI），或者如果我不在 Anthropic 的话，我很可能就在做味噌。

[原文] [Lenny]: i love this answer uh Ben asked me to ask you about what's the deal with you and miso and so I love that you answered it okay so the future the future might be just going deep into miso getting really good at get making miso uh amazing uh Boris this was incredible i feel like we're we're brothers now from Ukraine

[译文] [Lenny]: 我喜欢这个答案。呃，Ben 让我问问你，你和味噌到底是怎么回事，所以我很高兴你回答了这个问题。好的，所以未来，未来可能就是深入研究味噌，在制作味噌上变得极其出色。呃，太棒了。呃，Boris，这太不可思议了，我觉得我们现在是来自乌克兰的兄弟了。

[原文] [Lenny]: uh before we get to a very exciting lightning round is there anything else that you wanted to share is there anything you want to leave listeners with anything you want uh you want to double down on

[译文] [Lenny]: 呃，在我们进入非常激动人心的闪电问答（lightning round）环节之前，你还有什么想分享的吗？你有什么想留给听众的吗？有什么你想要呃、想要再次强调（double down on）的吗？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah I I think I would just like underscore you know like for for anthropic since the beginning this idea of like starting at coding then getting to tool use then getting to computer use has just been the way that we think about things and we this is the way that we know the models are going to develop or you know the way that we want to build our models and it's also the way that we get to learn about safety study it and improve it the most

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，我、我想我只是想强调一下（underscore），你知道，对于 Anthropic 来说，从一开始这种“从编程（coding）开始，然后发展到工具使用（tool use），再发展到计算机使用（computer use）”的理念，就一直是我们思考事物的方式。而我们，这也是我们所知晓的模型发展路径，或者你知道的，我们想要构建模型的方式。这同时也是我们得以了解安全（safety）、研究它并最大程度改进它的方式。

[原文] [Boris]: so you know everything that's happening right now around you know just like Quad Code becoming this huge you know multi-billion dollar business and you know like now all of my friends use Quad Code and they just text me about it all the time uh so just like you know this thing getting kind of big and in some ways it's a total surprise because this isn't kind of the we didn't know that it would be this product we didn't know that it would start in a terminal or anything like this but in some ways it's just totally unsurprising because this has been our belief as a company for for a long time

[译文] [Boris]: 所以你知道，现在发生的一切，你知道的，就像 Quad Code 正在成为这个庞大的，你知道的，价值数十亿美元的业务。而且你知道，现在我所有的朋友都在使用 Quad Code，他们总是发短信跟我聊这个。呃，所以就像你知道的，这东西变得有点庞大。在某些方面，这完全是个惊喜，因为这并不是某种我们预先知道会是这个产品、我们不知道它会从一个终端开始，或者任何类似这样的事情。但在某些方面，这完全不足为奇，因为长期以来，作为一家公司，这一直是我们的信念。

[原文] [Boris]: at the same time it just feels still very early you know like most of the world still does not use quad code most of the world still does not use AI so it just feels like this is 1% done and there's so much more to go

[译文] [Boris]: 与此同时，这依然让人感觉非常早期。你知道，世界上大多数人仍然没有使用 Quad Code，世界上大多数人仍然没有使用 AI。所以感觉这仅仅完成了 1%，还有很多的路要走。

[原文] [Lenny]: yeah man that's insane to think seeing the numbers that are coming out you guys just raised a bazillion dollars uh I think Cloud Code alone is making$2 billion dollars in revenue you think Anthropic I think the number you guys put out you're making 15 billion in revenue it's uh insane to just think this is how early it still is and just the numbers we're seeing

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的伙计，想想那些不断涌现的数据真是太疯狂了。你们刚刚筹集了无数的（bazillion）资金，呃，我想单单 Cloud Code（注：即 Claude Code）就创造了 20 亿美元的收入。你觉得 Anthropic，我想你们公布的数字是创造了 150 亿美元的收入。呃，光是想想现在依然如此早期，再看看我们看到的这些数字，这真是太疯狂了。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah yeah yeah it's crazy and and I mean like the the way that Quad Code has kept growing is honestly just the users like we so many people use it they're so passionate about it they fall in love with the product and then they tell us about stuff that doesn't work stuff that they want and so like the only reason that it keeps improving is because everyone is using it everyone is talking about it everyone keeps giving feedback and this is just the single most important thing

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，是的，是的，这很疯狂。而且、而且我的意思是，Quad Code 能够持续增长的方式，老实说全靠用户。就像我们，有那么多人使用它，他们对它充满热情，他们爱上了这个产品。然后他们告诉我们哪些东西不起作用，哪些东西是他们想要的。所以，它不断改进的唯一原因就是每个人都在使用它，每个人都在谈论它，每个人都在不断提供反馈，而这绝对是最重要的事情。

[原文] [Boris]: and you know for me this is the way that I love to spend my day is just talking to users and making it better for them and making me so and making me so well the you know the miso is like not super involved it just you just got to wait you just got to wait

[译文] [Boris]: 而且你知道，对我来说，这就是我所热爱的度过每一天的方式，仅仅是与用户交谈，为他们把产品做得更好，然后做味噌（making me so，注：原音发音为 making miso 的连读口误），做味噌。好吧，你知道的，做味噌并不是那种需要超级投入的事情，它就是，你只需要等待，你只需要等待。

[原文] [Lenny]: well Boris with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round I've got five questions for you are you ready let's do it first question what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people

[译文] [Lenny]: 好吧 Boris，就此我们来到了非常激动人心的闪电问答环节。我为你准备了五个问题，你准备好了吗？来吧。第一个问题，你发现自己向别人推荐得最多的两三本书是什么？

[原文] [Boris]: I I'm a greeter uh I would start with the technical book one is it it is functional programming in Scola this is the single best technical book I've ever read it's very weird because you're probably not going to use Scola and I don't know how much this matters in the future now but there's this just elegance to functional programming and thinking in types and this is just the way that I code and the way that I can't stop thinking about coding so you know you could think of it as a historical artifact you could think of it as something that will level you up

[译文] [Boris]: 我、我是一个阅读者（greeter，注：原音发音疑为 reader 口误）。呃，我想从一本技术书籍开始。一本是，它是《Scala 函数式编程（Functional Programming in Scala）》（注：字幕中 Scola 为 Scala 拼写错误）。这是我读过的最好的一本技术书籍。这很奇怪，因为你可能根本用不上 Scala，我也不知道这在未来会有多重要。但是，函数式编程和类型思维（thinking in types）中有一种优雅感（elegance）。这就是我写代码的方式，也是我无法停止去思考编程的方式。所以你知道，你可以把它当作一件历史文物（historical artifact），你也可以把它当作一件能提升你水平的东西。

[原文] [Lenny]: i love this neverbeforementioned book my favorite oh amazing amazing uh okay second one is

[译文] [Lenny]: 我喜欢这本以前从未被提及过的书，我的最爱。噢，太棒了，太棒了。呃，好的，第二本是？

[原文] [Boris]: uh Accelerondo by Straws this is probably you know like my my big genre is uh is sci-fi uh like probably sci-fi and fiction accelerondo is just this incredible book and it it it's just so fast-paced the pace gets faster and faster and faster and I just feel like it captures the essence of this moment that we're in more than any other book that I've read just the speed of it and it starts as a liftoff is starting to happen and you know starting to approach the singularity and it ends with like this like collective lobster consciousness orbiting Jupiter um and you know this happens over like the span of a few decades or something so the the pace is just incredible i I really love it

[译文] [Boris]: 呃，《加速时代（Accelerando）》，作者是 Stross（注：Charles Stross，字幕中 Straws 为拼写错误）。这大概是，你知道，我、我很喜欢的体裁呃，是科幻（sci-fi），呃，大概就像科幻和小说。《加速时代》是一本极其不可思议的书，它、它、它的节奏太快了，节奏变得越来越快、越来越快。我真的觉得，它比我读过的任何其他书都更能捕捉到我们当前所处这个时代的本质。仅仅是那种速度感。它开始于一场起飞（liftoff）正在发生，你知道，开始接近奇点（singularity），而它的结局是类似这样一种绕着木星轨道运行的群体龙虾意识（collective lobster consciousness）。嗯，而且你知道，这一切都发生在大概几十年的跨度里，所以它的节奏令人难以置信。我、我真的喜欢它。

[原文] [Boris]: maybe I'll I'll do one more book uh the wandering earth uh wandering earth by uh sishlu so he's the guy that did uh three body problem i think a lot of people know him for that i actually I think your body problem was awesome but I actually liked his short stories even more so Wandering Earth is one of the short story collections and it just has some really really amazing stories and it it's also just quite interesting to see uh Chinese sci-fi because it has a very different perspective than Western sci-fi and kind of the way that um at least he as a writer thinks about it so it's just really really interesting to read and just beautifully written

[译文] [Boris]: 也许我、我再推荐一本书。呃，《流浪地球（Wandering Earth）》，呃《流浪地球》，作者是呃刘慈欣（注：字幕中 sishlu 为拼音识别错误）。所以他就是写了呃《三体（Three Body Problem）》的那个人。我想很多人都是因为那本书知道他的。我其实，我认为《三体》很棒（注：字幕中 your body 为 three body 识别错误），但我实际上更喜欢他的短篇小说。所以《流浪地球》是他的短篇小说集之一，里面有一些真的、真的非常令人惊叹的故事。而且它、去阅读呃中国科幻小说也是非常有趣的，因为它有着与西方科幻小说截然不同的视角（perspective）。以及某种程度上，嗯，至少他作为一名作家思考问题的方式。所以它真的、读起来真的非常有趣，而且写得非常优美。

[原文] [Lenny]: it's so interesting how sci-fi has prepared us to think about where things are going just like it creates these mounts to models of like okay I see I've read about this sort of world yeah

[译文] [Lenny]: 科幻小说是如何让我们为事物未来的走向做好思想准备的，这太有趣了。就像它为我们建立这些某种心智模型（mounts to models，注：原音应为 mental models）：好吧，我明白了，我读到过这种类型的世界。是的。

[原文] [Boris]: i think I think for me this is like the reason that I joined anthropic actually cuz uh you know like like I said I was living in this rural place i was thinking these longtime skills because everything is just so slow out there at least compared to SF um and just like all the things that you do are based around the seasons and it's based around this food that takes many many months that's the way that kind of like social events are organized that's the way you kind of organize your time you like you go to the farmers market and it's like it's pimmen season and you know that because there's like 20 pimmen vendors and then the next week the season is done and it's like grape season and you kind of see this so it's like these kind of longtime skills

[译文] [Boris]: 我想、我想对我来说，这大概就是我加入 Anthropic 的原因。实际上是因为呃，你知道，就像我说的，我生活在那个乡村地带，我习惯于这种极长的时间尺度（longtime skills/scales），因为那里的每件事都非常缓慢，至少和旧金山（SF）比起来是这样。嗯，就像你做的所有事情都是围绕着季节展开的，都是围绕着那些需要好几个月才能做好的食物展开的。那也是类似社交活动组织的方式，那也是你安排时间的方式。你就像、你去农贸市场，感觉就像是：哦，现在是柿子（persimmon，注：字幕中 pimmen 识别错误）季，你之所以知道，是因为那里有大概 20 个卖柿子的摊贩。然后到了下个星期，这个季节就结束了，变成了类似葡萄季，你多多少少能看到这些。所以这就像是这种极长的时间尺度（longtime skills/scales）。

[原文] [Boris]: and I was also reading a bunch of sci-fi at the time and just like being in this moment I was like you know just thinking about these long time scales i know how this thing can go and I just I felt like I had to contribute to it going a little bit better and that's actually why I ended up at Ant and Ben man was also a big part of that too

[译文] [Boris]: 当时我也读了一堆科幻小说。处于那个时刻，我就像是在想，你知道的，仅仅是在思考这些漫长的时间尺度，我知道这件事情可以如何发展，而且我只是、我觉得我必须为让它发展得更好一点而做出贡献。这也是我最终加入 Ant（注：Anthropic）的实际原因，Ben Man 在其中也起到了很大的作用。

[原文] [Lenny]: i feel like I want to do a whole podcast just talking about your time in Japan and the journey of Boris through Japan to anthropic but we'll keep it we'll keep it short uh I'll quickly recommend a sci-fi book to you if you haven't read it have you read Fire Upon the Deep uh this is Ving right

[译文] [Lenny]: 我觉得我想做一整期播客，专门聊聊你在日本的时光，以及 Boris 穿越日本前往 Anthropic 的旅程。但我们会保持、我们会简短一点。呃，如果你没读过的话，我快速给你推荐一本科幻小说，你读过《深渊上的火（A Fire Upon the Deep）》吗？呃，这是 Ving（注：弗诺·文奇 Vernor Vinge）写的对吧。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah it's great

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，非常棒。

[原文] [Lenny]: yes okay that one's like it's like so interesting from a AI AGI perspective uh so few people have read that so um I myself

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的。好的，那本书就像是、从 AI 和 AGI 的视角来看简直太有趣了。呃，很少有人读过那本书，所以嗯，我自己——

[原文] [Boris]: Yeah it's like a lot yeah yeah yeah i like Deepness in the Sky also i think those sequels right or

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，信息量很大（it's like a lot）。是的，是的，是的。我也喜欢《天渊（A Deepness in the Sky）》，我想那些是续集对吧，或者——

[原文] [Lenny]: Yeah yeah yeah yeah i think so yeah it's very long and like complex to get into but so good okay we'll keep going through a lightning round uh do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed

[译文] [Lenny]: 是的，是的，是的，是的，我想是的。是的，它非常长，而且类似刚开始读很难进入状态（complex to get into），但太好看了。好的，我们将继续进行闪电问答。呃，你最近有特别喜欢的、非常享受的电影或电视节目吗？

[原文] [Boris]: so I actually don't really watch TV or movies i just don't really have time these days um I did watch I I I'm going to bring up another sishloo but the three body problem series on Netflix I I really loved um I thought that was like a great rendition of the book series

[译文] [Boris]: 是这样，我其实不太看电视或电影，我最近真的没有时间。嗯，我确实看了一部。我、我、我打算再提一次刘慈欣（注：字幕中 sishloo 为拼音识别错误），但 Netflix 上的《三体》剧集我、我真的非常喜欢。嗯，我认为那是对这套系列小说极好的一次演绎。

[原文] [Lenny]: so the common pattern across uh AI leaders is no time to watch TV or movies which I completely understand uh is there a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love

[译文] [Lenny]: 所以在呃 AI 领袖们身上一个常见的模式是：没有时间看电视或电影。我完全能理解。呃，你最近有没有发现一款你非常喜欢的挚爱产品？

[原文] [Boris]: i'm going to like chill a little bit and just say co-work cuz this is legitimately the the one product that's been pretty life-changing for me uh just because I I have it running all the time and uh the the Chrome integration in particular is just really excellent uh so it's been like it paid a traffic fine for me it like canceled a couple subscriptions for me uh just like the amount of like tedious work it gets out of the way is awesome

[译文] [Boris]: 我打算做个硬广自夸一下（chill a little bit，注：原音应为 shill a little bit），就说是 Co-work 吧，因为这真的是唯一一款对我来说相当改变生活的产品。呃，仅仅是因为我、我一直让它在运行。而且呃，特别是 Chrome 浏览器的集成功能真的非常出色。呃，所以它像是、它替我交了交通罚款，它像替我取消了几个订阅服务。呃，就像是它帮你清理掉的那些繁杂工作的数量，简直太棒了。

[原文] [Boris]: i I also don't know if it's a product but maybe I'll I'll uh also another podcast that I really love obviously besides uh besides Venny is obviously Yeah it's uh it's the acquired uh podcast by Ben Ben and David uh it's it's just like super it's super awesome um I feel like the way that they get into like business history and bring it alive is is really really good and I would start with a Nintendo episode if uh if you haven't listened to it

[译文] [Boris]: 我、我也不知道这算不算一款产品，但也许我会、我会呃，还有另外一档我真正热爱的播客，显然除了呃、除了 Venny（注：Lenny 的口误）的播客之外，显然。是的，它是呃、是由 Ben 和 David 主持的《Acquired》播客。呃，它、它简直超级、超级棒。嗯，我觉得他们深入研究商业史并将其生动重现（bring it alive）的方式真的、真的非常棒。如果你呃、如果你还没听过的话，我建议从任天堂（Nintendo）那期开始听。

[原文] [Lenny]: great tip uh with co-work just so people understand if they haven't tried this like basically you type something you want to get done and it can launch Chrome and just do things for you i saw one of the someone went on pat leave from anthropic and he had it fill out these like medical forms for him these like really annoying PDFs where it just like loads up the browser logs in fills them out and bits them

[译文] [Lenny]: 很好的建议。呃，关于 Co-work，为了让人们理解它（如果他们还没尝试过的话），比如基本上你输入一些你想完成的事情，它就能启动 Chrome 浏览器，然后直接替你做事。我看到其中一个，有个人从 Anthropic 休了陪产假（pat leave），他让它替他填写这些类似医疗表格的东西，那些像真的极其烦人的 PDF 文件，它就像是加载浏览器，登录，填好它们，然后提交（bits them，注：原音应为 submits them）它们。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah exactly exactly and and it actually just kind of works like we tried this experiment like a year ago and it didn't really work cuz the model wasn't ready but now now it actually just works and it's amazing i think a lot of people just don't really understand what this is because they haven't used agent before and it it just feels very very similar to me to quad code a year ago um but like I said it's just growing much faster than quad code did in the early days so I think it's starting to it's starting to break through a bit

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，完全正确，完全正确。而且、而且它实际上就是能起作用。像我们在大概一年前尝试过这个实验，但它并没有真正奏效，因为模型还没准备好。但现在，现在它实际上就是能起作用了，这很惊人。我认为很多人只是没有真正理解这是什么，因为他们以前没有使用过智能体（agent）。而且它、这让我感觉和一年前的 Quad Code 非常、非常相似。嗯，但就像我说的，它现在的增长速度比 Quad Code 早期快得多，所以我认为它正开始、它正开始获得一些突破。

[原文] [Lenny]: and there's also this Chrome extension that you mentioned that you could just use stand alone that sits in Chrome and you could just talk to Claude uh looking at your screen at your browser and have it do stuff have it tell you about what you're looking at summarize what you're looking at things like that

[译文] [Lenny]: 并且还有你提到的那个 Chrome 扩展程序，你可以作为一个独立的插件使用它，它就驻留在 Chrome 浏览器里。你可以直接和 Claude 对话，呃，看着你的屏幕，看着你的浏览器，让它做事情，让它告诉你你在看什么，总结你正在看的东西之类的。

[原文] [Boris]: exactly exactly for for people that are like just starting to use co-work the thing I recommend is so you download the Quad Desktop app you go to the co-work tab it's right next to the code tab um the thing that I recommend doing is like start by having it use a tool so like clean up your desktop or like summarize your email or something like this or you know like respond to the top three emails like it actually just responds to emails for me now too

[译文] [Boris]: 完全正确，完全正确。对于、对于那些像是刚刚开始使用 Co-work 的人，我推荐的做法是，首先你下载 Quad 桌面应用程序，你去 Co-work 标签页，它就在 Code 标签页旁边。嗯，我推荐做的事情就像是，从让它使用一个工具开始。比如清理你的桌面，或者比如总结你的电子邮件，或者类似这样的事情。或者你知道，比如回复前三封重要的电子邮件，像它实际上现在也帮我回复电子邮件了。

[原文] [Boris]: the second thing is connect tools so like if you connect like if you say look at my top emails and then send slack messages or you know like put them in a spreadsheet or something or for example like I use it for all my project management so we have a single spreadsheet for the whole team there's like a row per engineer every week everyone fills out a status and every Monday co-work just goes through and it messages every engineer on Slack that hasn't filled out their status and so I don't have to do this anymore and this is just one prompt it'll do everything

[译文] [Boris]: 第二件事是连接工具（connect tools）。所以就像如果你连接了，比如如果你说“看看我最重要的几封电子邮件”，然后“发送 Slack 消息”，或者你知道，比如“把它们放进一个电子表格里”之类的。或者举个例子，就像我把它用于我所有的项目管理，所以我们整个团队有一个单独的电子表格，大概每个工程师占一行，每周每个人填写一个状态（status）。然后每个星期一，Co-work 就会直接过一遍表格，它会在 Slack 上给每一个没有填写状态的工程师发消息。所以我不需要再做这件事了，这就是一条提示词（prompt），它会搞定一切。

[原文] [Boris]: and then the third thing is just run a bunch of quads in parallel so we can co-work you can have as many tasks running as you want so it's like start one task you know I have this project management thing running then I'll have it do something else then something else and I'll kick these off and then I just go get a coffee while it runs

[译文] [Boris]: 然后第三件事是，直接并行运行一堆 Quad。所以在 Co-work 里，你想运行多少个任务就可以运行多少个。所以就像是启动一个任务，你知道我有这个项目管理的东西在运行，然后我让它做点别的事情，再做点别的事情。我把这些任务启动（kick off），然后它运行时我就去喝杯咖啡。

[原文] [Lenny]: there's a post I'll link to that shares a bunch of ways people use uh what was previously cloud code and now just you could do through code work because a lot of this is just like oh wow I hadn't thought I could use it for that and once you see like these examples I think are what people need to hear of just like oh wow I didn't know I could do that so yeah

[译文] [Lenny]: 有一篇帖子我会在节目里提供链接，里面分享了人们使用呃（以前叫 Cloud Code 现在你可以直接通过 Code-work 来做）的各种方式。因为很多这种事情就像是，噢哇，我都没想过我能把它用在那上面。而且一旦你看到类似的这些例子，我认为这就是人们需要听到的东西，就像是，噢哇，我都不知道我还能做那个。所以是的。

[原文] [Boris]: I think a lot of this was also some of this was also inspired by you any you you had this post about uh it was like 50 non-technical use cases for quote or something like this so we actually one of our PMs used that as a way to evaluate co-work before we released it um and I think at the point where we hit where Coowork was able to do like 48 out of the 50 they were like "Okay it's pretty good."

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为这其中有很多，也有一些是受到了你的启发，比如你、你发过一篇帖子关于呃，大概是关于 Quad 的 50 个非技术用例（50 non-technical use cases for quote，注：quote 应为 Quad）或类似的东西。所以我们实际上，我们的一位 PM 在我们发布 Co-work 之前，把它作为一个评估 Co-work 的方法。嗯，我想当我们达到，当 Co-work 能够完成 50 项中的 48 项时，他们就会觉得：“好的，相当不错了。”

[原文] [Lenny]: Wow i did not know that that is awesome uh it's I've become an eval yeah how does that feel amazing i feel like I'm valuable to the future of AI this is like reverse breaking through wow that is so cool wow okay i wonder what those last two are anyway okay two more questions um do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life

[译文] [Lenny]: 哇，我都不知道那个，那太棒了。呃，这就成了，我变成了一个评估测试（eval）！是的，那感觉怎么样？太惊人了，我觉得我对 AI 的未来是有价值的，这就像是反向突破。哇，那太酷了。哇，好的，我想知道最后没做到的那两项是什么。不管怎样，好的，还有两个问题。嗯，你有一句在工作或生活中经常会回想起来的最喜欢的座右铭（life motto）吗？

[原文] [Boris]: use common sense i think a lot of the failures that I see in especially in a work environment is people just failing to use common sense like they follow a process without thinking about it um they just do a thing without thinking about it or they're working on a product that's like not a good product or not a good idea and they're just following the momentum and not thinking about it

[译文] [Boris]: “运用常识（Use common sense）”。我认为我看到的许多失败，尤其是在工作环境中，就是人们没能运用常识。比如他们不假思索地遵循一个流程；嗯，他们做一件事时不经大脑；或者他们在开发一个类似并不好的产品，或者不是个好主意的产品，他们只是顺着惯性（following the momentum）在做，而没有去思考它。

[原文] [Boris]: i think the best results that I see are people thinking from first principles and just developing their own common sense like if something smells weird then you know it's probably not a good idea so I think I think just this this is the single advice that I give you know to co-workers more more than anything too

[译文] [Boris]: 我认为我看到的最好的结果是那些从第一性原理（first principles）出发去思考，并且建立自己常识的人。比如如果一件事闻起来很奇怪（smells weird，指感觉不对劲），那么你知道这大概率不是一个好主意。所以我认为、我认为仅仅是这条，这也是我给，你知道给同事们提的最多的一条唯一建议。

[原文] [Lenny]: and I feel like that alone could be its own podcast conversation what is common sense how do you build but we'll keep this short uh final question uh so you've been got more active on Twitterx i'm curious just uh why and just what's your experience been with with Twitter the world of Twitter uh because you get a lot of engagement on on Twitterx

[译文] [Lenny]: 而且我觉得单单这一条就能成为一整期播客的主题：什么是常识？你如何建立常识？但我们会长话短说。呃，最后一个问题。呃，所以你最近在 Twitter/X 上变得更加活跃了。我很好奇呃，为什么？以及你在 Twitter，Twitter 的世界里的体验是怎样的？呃，因为你在 Twitter/X 上获得了大量的互动参与（engagement）。

[原文] [Boris]: so for a long time I used Threads exclusively because I actually helped build threads a little bit back in the day um and I also just like the design it's like a very clean product i I just really like that i started using Threads cuz actually I was bored um so in in December I was in Europe

[译文] [Boris]: 是这样的，在很长一段时间里我只使用 Threads，因为当年我其实参与了一点 Threads 的早期构建工作。嗯，而且我也只是喜欢那个设计，它像是一个非常干净的产品，我、我真的很喜欢那个。我开始使用 Threads 是因为我当时其实很无聊。嗯，所以在 12 月份我在欧洲。

[原文] [Lenny]: you started using Twitter you mean

[译文] [Lenny]: 你的意思是你开始使用 Twitter。

[原文] [Boris]: oh yeah yeah yeah i started I started using uh Twitter because I was bored so my my wife and I were uh we were traveling around in in Europe for December we're just kind of nomading around we went to like Copenhagen went to like a few different countries um and for me it was just like a coding vacation so every day I was coding and that's like my favorite kind of vacation just to just like code all day it's the best

[译文] [Boris]: 噢是的，是的，是的，我开始、我开始使用呃 Twitter 是因为我很无聊。所以我的、我和我的妻子，我们呃在 12 月份在欧洲四处旅行。我们多多少少就像是在到处游牧（nomading around），我们去了像哥本哈根，去了大概几个不同的国家。嗯，对我来说它就像是一个编程假期（coding vacation），所以每天我都在写代码，那大概是我最喜欢的一种度假方式，就是、就像整天写代码，这是最棒的。

[原文] [Boris]: and at some point I just kind of got bored and like I ran out of ideas for you know like a few hours i was like okay what do I want to do next and so I opened Twitter i saw some people like tweeting about quad code and then I just started responding

[译文] [Boris]: 然后在某个时刻，我就觉得有点无聊了。就像是我失去了灵感，你知道大概有几个小时没活干，我就在想，好吧，接下来我想做什么？于是我打开了 Twitter，我看到有一些人好像在发关于 Quad Code 的推文，然后我就开始回复。

[原文] [Boris]: and then I was like okay maybe actually I think I should do is just like look for people look for bugs that people have maybe people have like bugs or kind of feedback they have and so kind of introduce myself ask for if people had a bunch of bugs and feedback and I think they were kind of surprised by like the pace at which we're able to address feedback nowadays um for me it's just like so normal like if someone has a bug like I can probably fix it within a few minutes because I just sort of quad and as long as the description is good it'll just go and do it and then I'll I'll go do something else and answer the next thing

[译文] [Boris]: 然后我就想，好吧，也许其实我觉得我应该做的是，去寻找人们、寻找人们遇到的漏洞（bugs）。也许人们有遇到类似的漏洞，或者他们有哪种反馈。所以我就稍微介绍了一下自己，问问人们是否有一堆漏洞和反馈。我认为他们有点被我们如今处理反馈的速度惊到了。嗯，对我来说这就像是再正常不过了。比如如果有人发现了一个 bug，像我大概能在几分钟内修复它，因为我直接抛给 Quad，只要描述得好，它就会去解决。然后我、我会去做点别的事情，回答下一个问题。

[原文] [Boris]: but I think for a lot of people was pretty surprising so that was really cool and yeah the experience on Twitter has been pretty great it's it's been awesome just engaging with people and seeing what people want uh hearing hearing about bugs hearing about features

[译文] [Boris]: 但我认为这对很多人来说是相当令人惊讶的，所以那真的很酷。而且是的，在 Twitter 上的体验相当棒，那真的太棒了。仅仅是与人们互动，看看人们想要什么，呃，听听、听听关于漏洞的事，听听关于新功能的事。

[原文] [Lenny]: i saw complaints to Nikita Beer the other day on Twitter of just you they're like posting many threads and it was breaking and just like oh man what's going on here

[译文] [Lenny]: 前几天我在 Twitter 上看到 Nikita Beer（注：即科技大V Nikita Bier）的抱怨，就是抱怨你们，他们就像是在发很多线程任务（threads，注：此处双关并发任务或推文线程），结果它崩溃了，反应就像是天哪，这到底是怎么回事。

[原文] [Boris]: yeah yeah yeah there there was a bug i hope it's fixed now

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，是的，是的。那里、那里有个 bug。我希望它现在已经修复了。

[原文] [Lenny]: amazing oh man Boris I could chat with you for hours uh I'll let you go thank you so much for doing this uh you're wonderful um where can folks find you online how can listeners be useful to you

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。噢伙计，Boris，我可以和你聊上几个小时。呃，我不占用你时间了（let you go）。非常感谢你来做客，呃，你太棒了。嗯，大家可以在网上哪里找到你？听众们怎样才能帮到你（be useful to you）？

[原文] [Boris]: yeah find me on threads or on Twitter that's the that's the easiest place and please just tag me on stuff um send bugs send feature requests what's missing what can we do to make the products better what do you like what do you want um I I love love hearing it

[译文] [Boris]: 是的，在 Threads 或者在 Twitter 上找我，那是、那是找到我最容易的地方。请随意在事情上艾特（tag）我。嗯，发送 bug，发送功能请求，缺少了什么？我们能做些什么让产品变得更好？你喜欢什么？你想要什么？嗯，我、我热爱、热爱听到这些。

[原文] [Lenny]: amazing boris thank you so much for being here

[译文] [Lenny]: 太棒了。Boris，非常感谢你的到来。

[原文] [Boris]: cool thanks Funny bye

[译文] [Boris]: 酷。谢谢你，Funny（注：Lenny 的口误）。再见。

[原文] [Lenny]: everyone thank you so much for listening if you found this valuable you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast app also please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast you can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com see you in the next episode

[译文] [Lenny]: 大家好，非常感谢你们的收听。如果你觉得本期节目有价值，你可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或者你最喜欢的播客应用上订阅这档节目。此外，请考虑给我们打个分或留个评论，因为那真的能帮助其他听众找到这档播客。你可以在 lennispodcast.com 找到所有过往节目或了解更多关于节目的信息。我们下期节目再见。